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Border Poll discussion

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    #2672
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,021 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Dytalus wrote: »
    If they refuse to engage post-poll, then that's their problem. I do believe the members of Stormont should be involved - not just the Oireachtas and HMG. And if that means inviting some DUP or [insert unionist party here] politicians to engage and they then ignore it and refuse to honour the GFA and the border poll?

    Well then some politicians need to lose their seats, IMO. But maybe they'll be elected on that abstentionist policy similar to SF and Westminster, in which case those who vote for them can't complain that their voices aren't heard (though I suspect some of them will anyway).

    I presume the way it will work is
    A. A Border Poll is Called.

    B. Both Governments will issue papers (Green or White) on what they propose. Who they consult in formulating these is up to them. The British Government per se, has to remain neutral.

    C. Other parties will issue their visions, Yay or Nay

    D. We all vote.

    E. Both governments fulfill their mandates to make it happen or to continue as we were.


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    #2673
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,021 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    No as I said I am Scottish and don't know the details but from indy ref asking people to get poorer (even just for short term is not a universal vote winner)

    For example the German reunification tax was introduced in 1989 and 28 years later was still in place.

    I would say there would be mileage out of that for a political party

    Once the wall fell, German unification was irresistible . Not even the Russians, Thatcher or the US could prevent it. (in my opinion because partition was stupid to begin with)

    I am still not seeing any parties here negatively campaigning.

    In many regards, Brexit is the 'wall'.


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    #2674
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Dytalus wrote: »
    But maybe they'll be elected on that abstentionist policy similar to SF and Westminster

    To what ends? They can't abstain from the reality of living in Ireland. Abstention serves SF because they are politically active in all of Ireland from grassroots to TD level and its rationale is to move political power away from Whitehall.


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    #2675
    Dytalus
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    To what ends? They can't abstain from the reality of living in Ireland. Abstention serves SF because they are politically active in all of Ireland from grassroots to TD level and its rationale is to move political power away from Whitehall.

    I never said I knew a rational reason for it. But there's no denying that some people might refuse to engage with any post-poll discussions, and that some other people will rally around them in some kind of protest vote.

    It will gain them nothing and cost them greatly in the event that a UI is voted for and talks begin, but I don't think it's impossible it will happen.


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    #2676
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Dytalus wrote: »
    Yeah, but how many people take into account the parties' stances on UI when voting? I don't think it's ever been used in advertisements during elections, and nobody I know votes based on it - admittedly because up until Brexit they never saw it as likely to happen for another few generations, if at all. Fianna F are nominally a unification party (it's one of their stated policies on their website), but nobody I know who votes FF votes because of it.

    Recent research by Amch (end of January 2019) in ROI.
    - 86% of people wanted to see a 32 county republic rather than the 14% who wanted a hard border.

    -in favour of a united Ireland:
    Yes: 54%
    No: 21%
    Don't knows: 25%


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    #2677
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Yes I understand the constitution but the reality of for example tax increases to fund reunification. I am sure some taxpayers down south may not be so happy.

    Could some parties be like Labour under Corbyn with Brexit i.e. for remain but not actually doing anything to promote it?

    No, not really. FF, FG, Sinn Fein's Labour's roots are in 1916. An anti-unity party could spring up, but I really doubt that there would.

    In Ireland, we're used to hardship - starting with just after independence, an 8 year trade war with the UK which was very tough as the UK was Ireland's only trade partner, so I can't see the cost being the main decider. I can see Germany and the US being very supportive if a UI was to come about.


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    #2678
    Dytalus
    Registered Users Posts: 459 ✭✭Dytalus


    jm08 wrote: »
    No, not really. FF, FG, Sinn Fein's Labour's roots are in 1916. An anti-unity party could spring up, but I really doubt that there would.

    In Ireland, we're used to hardship - starting with just after independence, an 8 year trade war with the UK which was very tough as the UK was Ireland's only trade partner, so I can't see the cost being the main decider. I can see Germany and the US being very supportive if a UI was to come about.

    Plus our allocation of EU Funding would almost certainly increase - possibly making us a net beneficiary as a country again. Under the current (2014-2020) round of funding Northern Ireland is a Transition Region (mid-tier compared to the rest of the EU with a GDP per capita of between 75% and 90% of the EU average) and so gets a greater co-financing rate than the rest of Ireland assuming everything else stays the same.

    Not to mention, certain funding from the EU specifically dedicated towards cross-border programmes (ie, separate from the larger funds like ERDF and ESF and so on) could be re-purposed should unification happen and remove the 'cross-border' aspect.


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    #2679
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Farawayhome wrote: »
    A lot of Irish and Scottish people have a lot in common, far more than with English people anyway.

    Religion ruined that Celtic relationship, with a lot of Scottish adopting Presbyterianism. They'd be anti catholic, and by association anti Irish.


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    #2680
    circadian
    Registered Users Posts: 6,907 ✭✭✭circadian


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Religion ruined that Celtic relationship, with a lot of Scottish adopting Presbyterianism. They'd be anti catholic, and by association anti Irish.

    The funny thing about that, all the Presbyterians I know from Donegal and Monaghan (I'm from a mixed family) aren't unionist at all, speak Irish and see themselves as Irish.


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    #2681
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    circadian wrote: »
    The funny thing about that, all the Presbyterians I know from Donegal and Monaghan (I'm from a mixed family) aren't unionist at all, speak Irish and see themselves as Irish.

    Good to hear :)







    P.S. They secretly believe you're going to hell ;)


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    #2682
    circadian
    Registered Users Posts: 6,907 ✭✭✭circadian


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Good to hear :)







    P.S. They secretly believe you're going to hell ;)

    Probably but it seems that my cousins and some of the older generation are more than likely atheist.


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    #2683
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Frank Castle wrote: »
    As a unionist raised in Donegal before moving into the north, I can tell you pretty much no one there would be ok with this



    So are cavan and monaghan, why leave those out?
    When I mentioned Donegal I meant it being administered by Ulster within a UI-with Ulster administering itself but ultimately answerable to Ireland'sgovernment.


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    #2684
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,139 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Religion ruined that Celtic relationship, with a lot of Scottish adopting Presbyterianism. They'd be anti catholic, and by association anti Irish.

    This takes the biscuit as a “it’s all their fault” post.


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    #2685
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I presume the way it will work is
    A. A Border Poll is Called.

    B. Both Governments will issue papers (Green or White) on what they propose. Who they consult in formulating these is up to them. The British Government per se, has to remain neutral.

    C. Other parties will issue their visions, Yay or Nay

    D. We all vote.

    E. Both governments fulfill their mandates to make it happen or to continue as we were.

    The only possible problem I foresee with that scenario is there may be alternatives more attractive to NI-is there any reason they couldn't consider other alliances?


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    #2686
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Dytalus wrote: »
    Yeah, but how many people take into account the parties' stances on UI when voting? I don't think it's ever been used in advertisements during elections, and nobody I know votes based on it - admittedly because up until Brexit they never saw it as likely to happen for another few generations, if at all. Fianna Fáil are nominally a unification party (it's one of their stated policies on their website), but nobody I know who votes FF votes because of it.

    And sure we can all see how well Sinn Féin do in elections in Ireland too.

    That doesn't address his question of "who would actually vote for it"? I'm happy taking a short term hit, for a long term gain. So too are a majority of the people I know, and a number of folks in this thread. But there are still people I know who are not. More specifically, they'd be happy for a temporary setback for eventual growth, but not one that is as large/long-lasting as they believe it would be immediately post-unification.

    I guarantee every party in the republic would support a UI. Any politician that doesn't will not have a seat for very long.


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    #2687
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,021 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    The only possible problem I foresee with that scenario is there may be alternatives more attractive to NI-is there any reason they couldn't consider other alliances?

    Don't get you?


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    #2688
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,021 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I guarantee every party in the republic would support a UI. Any politician that doesn't will not have a seat for very long.

    I don't think a lot of Irish people would turn their back either, when it comes to it.


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    #2689
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,139 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Reading many post hear, I would find it informative if I could get a handle on the all-Island stuff.

    Are you guys suggesting that land masses should only contain one nation (in a perfect world)?
    ...and I’m not trying to be smart and trap you so I’ll give you my next question. Should gb be one island? Do you beloevr in the right of the basque, Catalans, palistinians etc to self determination ?
    I genuinely really struggle with the starting point of many on here. Which seems to be that Ireland should be united and somehow partition is just plain wrong?


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    #2690
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    I don't think a lot of Irish people would turn their back either, when it comes to it.

    As you say there'll likely be a few Tory/Fine Gael musings on it, but disagree or not they know it'll put the last #hometovote in the shade.


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    #2691
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    downcow wrote: »
    Reading many post hear, I would find it informative if I could get a handle on the all-Island stuff.

    Are you guys suggesting that land masses should only contain one nation (in a perfect world)?
    ...and I’m not trying to be smart and trap you so I’ll give you my next question. Should gb be one island? Do you beloevr in the right of the basque, Catalans, palistinians etc to self determination ?
    I genuinely really struggle with the starting point of many on here. Which seems to be that Ireland should be united and somehow partition is just plain wrong?

    It's a practical living next door thing. You have more in common with your neighbours and extended family in the next county than a geographically foreign place you may agree with as a political entity, IMO. Case in point, Westminister only cares about Unionists if there's a vote in it.
    FYI partition is just plain wrong.


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    #2692
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,139 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It's a practical living next door thing. You have more in common with your neighbours and extended family in the next county than a geographically foreign place you may agree with as a political entity, IMO. Case in point, Westminister only cares about Unionists if there's a vote in it.
    FYI partition is just plain wrong.

    Matt. Re the question, why is it wrong and do you believe other areas seeking self determination are wrong eg Catalans, Palestinians, French Canadians, etc etc.


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    #2693
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,139 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It's a practical living next door thing. You have more in common with your neighbours and extended family in the next county than a geographically foreign place you may agree with as a political entity, IMO. Case in point, Westminister only cares about Unionists if there's a vote in it.
    FYI partition is just plain wrong.

    ... and also, can I assure you I have far more in common with Scots and English people that I have with southerners. I feel at home when in Scotland. I feel I am in a very different place when in the south.
    So try not to tell me who I have most in common with.
    I’m ok if you said - I wish you had more in common with southerners but please don’t second guess me


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    #2694
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,139 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It's a practical living next door thing. You have more in common with your neighbours and extended family in the next county than a geographically foreign place you may agree with as a political entity, IMO. Case in point, Westminister only cares about Unionists if there's a vote in it.
    FYI partition is just plain wrong.

    This is more than a bit patronising.


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    #2695
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,139 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    FYI partition is just plain wrong.

    This is one big reason I think unionists will never accept their country being taken over by those that think they have a Devine right to


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    #2696
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Don't get you?

    If NI was to leave the union why couldn't they pursue an alliance with an independent Scotland?Is there a reason why this would be a none starter?


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    #2697
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    downcow wrote: »
    unionists will never accept their country

    Unionists don't own the north and have no veto on a United Ireland.


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    #2698
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,139 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    If NI was to leave the union why couldn't they pursue an alliance with an independent Scotland?Is there a reason why this would be a none starter?

    Well Scotland is not independent. I personally am not that fussed on joining with the Scots. I enjoy the diversity of the UK and appreciate all regions. Had a holiday recently in Torquay and also a few years ago in kings Lyn, not to mention Edinburgh and Stirling. and love the diversity

    Torquay was beautiful. And was surprised to find King Billy statue in Paignton:-)


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    #2699
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    downcow wrote: »
    This takes the biscuit as a “it’s all their fault” post.

    Eh? I hadn't read the previous posts. I was picking up on the post someone said Ireland and Scotland have a lot in common.


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    #2700
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,139 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Eh? I hadn't read the previous posts. I was picking up on the post someone said Ireland and Scotland have a lot in common.

    Apologies if I have taken that out of context. It had sounded to me like you felt a UI was somehow more legitimate than a UK.
    Genuinely sorry if I misunderstood you


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    #2701
    downcow
    Registered Users Posts: 11,139 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    Unionists don't own the north and have no veto on a United Ireland.

    I agree. Those who support NI (unionists) don’t own NI anymore that Irish own roi or English own England. But we are the majority and therefore can decide it’s future. We do though need to do that with total compassion to the minority nationalist population.
    So yes I agree with you. The key it’s compassion and respect.


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