Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 12:35pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I would be satisfied that an involuntary manslaughter charge, which carries a 6-8yr term AFAIK, is a harsh but fair application of the law.

So you've admitted that drugs did not lead to Mr Floyd's death, you have agreed with the autopsies and their verdicts of homicide and you admit that Mr Chavin is culpable for the killing of Mr Floyd.

Great

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:35pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

based on what, your intuition? The trial is still ongoing in case you haven't noticed. Or are you just trying to be snarky?

on the autopsies.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:36pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

So you've admitted that drugs did not lead to Mr Floyd's death, you have agreed with the autopsies and their verdicts of homicide and you admit that Mr Chavin is culpable for the killing of Mr Floyd.

Great

That's clearly not what I said, at all.
But if that's what you take from what I said, perhaps it shows how blindly you are adhering to the ACAB white guilt lines.

30-03-2021 12:36pm

Is his death recorded in the covid death numbers too?

FileNotFound · 30-03-2021 12:36pm

Be interesting to see how this all ends.

The Police officer killed the man in the act of restraining him, the man killed was high and acting in a fashion that required restraining.

Have to imagine a manslaughter charge (or whatever equivalent they have) is the way this may go. Then again this is the USA so maybe the cop can claim following protocol etc. with a violent/potenially violent offender? Would seem a strecth considering the length of time they had him pinned.

I assume murder implies pre intent on the cops side - which would be impossible to prove even if it did exist.

Either way - I imagine lots of people will be unhappy with the verdict

KeepItLight · 30-03-2021 12:37pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

on the autopsies.

The trial is still ongoing and determining the cause of death will be front an center as per my previous posts. If the autopsies were that infallible, there would be no need to debate this.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:37pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

based on what, your intuition? The trial is still ongoing in case you haven't noticed. Or are you just trying to be snarky?

The usual trial by social media.

These people were around for other trials too, the rugby trial etc. Convicted before the case and evidence was even heard.

30-03-2021 12:37pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is his death recorded in the covid death numbers too?

Seek help.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:38pm

KeepItLight wrote: »

The trial is still ongoing and determining the cause of death will be front an center as per my previous posts. If the autopsies were that infallible, there would be no need to debate this.

the cause of death has been determined. that is what an autopsy does.

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 12:39pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is his death recorded in the covid death numbers too?

Wow!

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:41pm

He had covid but I believe he had recovered?

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 12:41pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The usual trial by social media.

These people were around for other trials too, the rugby trial etc. Convicted before the case and evidence was even heard.

In this case, you've indicated yourself that the killing was homicide and that Mr Chavin is culpable.

So if there's a trial by social media like you say, you are contributing

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:43pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

In this case, you've indicated yourself that the killing was homicide and that Mr Chavin is culpable.

So if there's a trial by social media like you say, you are contributing

I've indicated my opinion.

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 12:43pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I've indicated my opinion.

Agreed

seamus · 30-03-2021 12:44pm

ELM327 wrote: »

I see fit to form an opinion based on first and third hand reports , same as everyone else.

Sure, but where that opinion differs from the opinion of experts with first-hand access to the data, you're going to be asked to discuss why you believe your insight to be superior.

We can spend all day discussing the grey areas, but if we start disputing things that are effectively legal fact - like the fact that Chauvin kneeling on Floyd is what caused him to die - we may as well give up.

KeepItLight · 30-03-2021 12:44pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the cause of death has been determined. that is what an autopsy does.

https://www.startribune.com/cause-of-death-at-issue-in-derek-chauvin-trial/600039728/

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/29/us/george-floyd-cause-of-death.html

https://news.wttw.com/2021/03/07/george-floyd-cause-death-ex-cops-force-will-be-keys-trial

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/george-floyd-fentanyl/2021/03/10/c3d4f328-76ec-11eb-9537-496158cc5fd9_story.html

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/arguments-over-cause-death-george-floyd-case/a1202f4b-c47a-4b01-bbd3-a5be757f1d2e/

Not all as infallible and conclusive as you are presuming, apparently.

30-03-2021 12:46pm

Frank Obedient Zygote wrote: »

Seek help.

MrStuffins wrote: »

Wow!

I was under the impression that if you died and had covid in your system, you would be recorded in the covid fatality numbers.

I was wondering if this was the case here.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:47pm

seamus wrote: »

Sure, but where that opinion differs from the opinion of experts with first-hand access to the data, you're going to be asked to discuss why you believe your insight to be superior.

We can spend all day discussing the grey areas, but if we start disputing things that are effectively legal fact - like the fact that Chauvin kneeling on Floyd is what caused him to die - we may as well give up.

Can you outline a definition of "legal fact" and how something that has not been tested in a court yet can constitute legal fact.

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 12:48pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I was under the impression that if you died and had covid in your system, you would be recorded in the covid fatality numbers.

I was wondering if this was the case here.

Your attitude towards the killing of this man says a lot. Incredible!

Snickers Man · 30-03-2021 12:51pm

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

But the man knelt on his neck pressing his full bodyweight down on him for 9 minutes when he was flat on his stomach and in handcuffs and not resisting plus complaining of not being able to breath...

...this cop had a pivotal role in this mans death,...... cop deserves everything thats coming to him.

apart from what's in red, no quibble.

Eric Cartman · 30-03-2021 12:52pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

jeez, talk about paranoid. the irish government decide to lift restrictions just because a trial has started in a different jurisdiction. I know you normally post nonsense but that is exceptional.

Except that isnt what I said at all, but you knew that, its just easy for you to jump to insane conclusions.

30-03-2021 12:53pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Your attitude towards the killing of this man says a lot. Incredible!

Excuse me? What attitude?

Asking if his death was included in the official covid fatality figures is not showing any attitude.

Saying I want to see all prosecution and defense evidence before coming to a decision is not showing any attitude.

What attitude should I have exactly?

penny piper · 30-03-2021 12:53pm

In 2010 David Smith from minneapolis was restrained by officers in much the same way as floyd....they used tasers etc they then decided to remove him from the ymca where he had been causing disruption but because smith was a paid up member he refused ...the police officers said he was resisting them and decided after using the taser gun on him and knocking him to the floor they turned him facedown and one officer put his knee into smiths back for aprox 4mins plus whilst the other police officer restrained the bottom half of his body...using a tactic known as prone restraint (which is allowed in minneapolis) this is known to restrict a person's ability to take in oxygen...when they finally released him he was not breathing...paramedics arrived and the guy lasted for about one week in hospital..
The coronor findings were that he died from mechanical asphyxia caused by the use of the prone restraint...the two officers were put on temporary suspension but were back at work within a month..
The smith family later sued minneapolis city for alledged use of excessive force and were compensated with 3.5million the two officers were cleared of any wrongdoing...officers were suppose to have been retrained in the use of restraint tactics in minneapolis whether they were idk..

So why is derik chavins case any different??? yes yes apart from 9mins but smith's time could have been equally as long held in that position..

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 12:53pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Except that isnt what I said at all, but you knew that, its just easy for you to jump to insane conclusions.

you're fooling nobody

that late inclusion is awfully coincidental.

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 12:55pm

penny piper wrote: »

In 2010 David Smith from minneapolis was restrained by officers in much the same way as floyd....they used tasers etc they then decided to remove him from the ymca where he had been causing disruption but because smith was a paid up member he refused ...the police officers said he was resisting them and decided after using the taser gun on him and knocking him to the floor they turned him facedown and one officer put his knee into smiths back for aprox 4mins plus whilst the other police officer restrained the bottom half of his body...using a tactic known as prone restraint this is known to restrict a person's ability to take in oxygen...when they finally released him he was not breathing...paramedics arrived and the guy lasted for about one week in hospital..
The coronor findings were that he died from mechanical asphyxia caused by the use of the prone restraint...the two officers were put on temporary suspension but were back at work within a month..
The smith family later sued minneapolis city for alledged use of excessive force and were compensated with 3.5million the two officers were cleared of any wrongdoing...officers were suppose to have been retrained in the use of restraint tactics in minneapolis whether they were idk..

So why is derik chavins case any different??? yes yes apart from 9mins but smith's time could have been equally as long held in that position..

The difference is there was no baying mob that time.

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 12:56pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Excuse me? What attitude?

Asking if his death was included in the official covid fatality figures is not showing any attitude.

Saying I want to see all prosecution and defense evidence before coming to a decision is not showing any attitude.

What attitude should I have exactly?

As the poster below said......

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you're fooling nobody

Eric Cartman · 30-03-2021 12:58pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you're fooling nobody

The way youve framed it is that I think all the lifting of restrictions are related to this, I don’t , but Up till yesterday we had no mention of easing restrictions on protesting , not a bit, then since last night that is on the table as part of the easment. We saw the superspreader protests after George died , we saw the superspreader mini riots in blanchardstown , I do believe somebody in the government advisory capacity last night decided that including protesting restrictions easing , knowing that a riot was going to come out of this no matter what is a possibility. The woke brigade love bringing stateside issues here, lifting the restrictions would ease the burden the government would have to deploy in garda respurces to try contain the eventual riot stemming from this.

irelandrover · 30-03-2021 12:59pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

In this case, you've indicated yourself that the killing was homicide and that Mr Chavin is culpable.

So if there's a trial by social media like you say, you are contributing

Homicide is different in autopsies then the legal definition, right. It just means that someone else contributed to the death. It doesnt mean the actions are unjustified.

30-03-2021 1:00pm

(

MrStuffins wrote: »

As the poster below said......

A non answer. We will leave it there.

In between not answering a direct question and constantly, and intentionally, misrepresenting other posters, I have reason to believe you are arguing in bad faith.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 1:01pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The difference is there was no baying mob that time.

the difference is that America as a country is no longer as tolerant to police officers killing people as it once was.

Muahahaha · 30-03-2021 1:01pm

ELM327 wrote: »

If I had a 6 inch and 50 lb advantage over the cop, after resisting already, and off my face on narcotics, I'd rate my chances highly of getting to my feet and resisting some more.

How would you even get to your feet when your hands are in handcuffs and theres a cop restraining you with a knee on your neck? Are you saying you would be able to get to your feet and then outrun a cop while in handcuffs?

And you didnt answer the question- why do you feel there was a need to restrain Flody with a knee on his neck when he was already face down and handcuffed? Do you not think that restraining him with a knee anywhere on his back would have achieved the same objective of making sure he could not get to his feet and then somehow outrun a cop (armed with a gun, baton and pepper spray) whilst handcuffed?

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 1:02pm

irelandrover wrote: »

Homicide is different in autopsies then the legal definition, right. It just means that someone else contributed to the death. It doesnt mean the actions are unjustified.

Homicide is the act of one human killing another.

Mr Chavin killed Mr Floyd according to the autopsies.

ohnonotgmail · 30-03-2021 1:02pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The way youve framed it is that I think all the lifting of restrictions are related to this, I don’t , but Up till yesterday we had no mention of easing restrictions on protesting , not a bit, then since last night that is on the table as part of the easment.

I didnt frame it that way at all. you suggested that this particular lifting of restrictions is linked to the trial that has just started. Tin foil hat lunacy of the highest order.

irelandrover · 30-03-2021 1:09pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

Homicide is the act of one human killing another.

Mr Chavin killed Mr Floyd according to the autopsies.

That's the legal definition.

This is the autopsy definition:
It is important to note that the medical term “homicide” is different from the legal definition of “homicide.” “Homicide” in medical terms means that the death is caused by either direct or indirect actions of another personor persons. “Homicide” does NOT mean murder, manslaughter or any negligence has occurred.

homicide in the autopsy does not mean that Chauvin is guilty of murder or manslaughter.

Kaybaykwah · 30-03-2021 1:12pm

kildare lad wrote: »

I think there was more to it than it being about race. I think they knew each other previously as they worked at the same club so there could be bad blood there . In the cops camera everything was going along normally till he started freaking out when they tried to put him in the squad car . So for everyone thinking he just arrested him and started kneeling on his neck it didn't just happen like that . I'm not trying to justify what the cop done but I don't think the cop will get done for murder , as murder has to be premeditated. I still think he'll get locked up though .

You said there was probably bad blood between them but that the cop couldn't be found guilty of premeditating.

???

Might as well toss a coin. What will it be?

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 1:16pm

irelandrover wrote: »

That's the legal definition.

This is the autopsy definition:
It is important to note that the medical term “homicide” is different from the legal definition of “homicide.” “Homicide” in medical terms means that the death is caused by either direct or indirect actions of another person or persons.

Yes. The other person in this case being Mr Chavin

riffmongous · 30-03-2021 1:43pm

penny piper wrote: »

In 2010 David Smith from minneapolis was restrained by officers in much the same way as floyd....they used tasers etc they then decided to remove him from the ymca where he had been causing disruption but because smith was a paid up member he refused ...the police officers said he was resisting them and decided after using the taser gun on him and knocking him to the floor they turned him facedown and one officer put his knee into smiths back for aprox 4mins plus whilst the other police officer restrained the bottom half of his body...using a tactic known as prone restraint (which is allowed in minneapolis) this is known to restrict a person's ability to take in oxygen...when they finally released him he was not breathing...paramedics arrived and the guy lasted for about one week in hospital..
The coronor findings were that he died from mechanical asphyxia caused by the use of the prone restraint...the two officers were put on temporary suspension but were back at work within a month..
The smith family later sued minneapolis city for alledged use of excessive force and were compensated with 3.5million the two officers were cleared of any wrongdoing...officers were suppose to have been retrained in the use of restraint tactics in minneapolis whether they were idk..

So why is derik chavins case any different??? yes yes apart from 9mins but smith's time could have been equally as long held in that position..

Apart from the fact that depriving the brain of oxygen for 4 minutes compared to 9 is literally the difference between life and death

wicklowstevo · 30-03-2021 1:47pm

I so glad there are so many experts on police procedure, legal experts and people who have years of experience in restraining large highly intoxicated resisting people on the internet

where would the world be with out ye

Fandymo · 30-03-2021 1:50pm

KaneToad wrote: »

Would you not wait to hear all the evidence first?

Feelings matter more nowadays than facts, didn't you get the memo??

ELM327 · 30-03-2021 1:51pm

Fandymo wrote: »

Feelings matter more nowadays than facts, didn't you get the memo??

It doesnt matter about the trifling matter of a court trial these days. All you need is a memorable hashtag.

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 1:51pm

wicklowstevo wrote: »

I so glad there are so many experts on police procedure, legal experts and people who have years of experience in restraining large highly intoxicated resisting people on the internet

where would the world be with out ye

If only there were more of them in American law enforcement. Then there would be fewer needless killings.

Assuming this was not pre-meditated murder of course. Giving Mr. Chavin the benefit of the doubt that he did not intentionally murder Mr. Floyd.

wicklowstevo · 30-03-2021 1:53pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

If only there were more of them in American law enforcement. Then there would be fewer needless killings.

Assuming this was not pre-meditated murder of course. Giving Mr. Chavin the benefit of the doubt that he did not intentionally murder Mr. Floyd.

the only thing that is safe to assume here is that not one of the keyboard warriors on boards.ie has the above listed skills , qualifications or experience

BattleCorp · 30-03-2021 1:53pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

It wasn't. Both autopsies said so.

This has already been established

I'll wait to see what's presented in court if you don't mind.

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 2:03pm

wicklowstevo wrote: »

the only thing that is safe to assume here is that not one of the keyboard warriors on boards.ie has the above listed skills , qualifications or experience

And, evidentially and sadly for Mr Floyd, neither did Mr. Chavin

irelandrover · 30-03-2021 2:04pm

MrStuffins wrote: »

He killed the man unnecessarily.

He should go to prison for manslaughter at the very least.

MrStuffins wrote: »

Yes. The other person in this case being Mr Chavin

You seem to have read the word homicide, saw a video and hence decided Chavin is definitely guilty and deserves prison.

What others are saying on this thread is that maybe you should wait for the evidence from the court case.

Homelander · 30-03-2021 2:06pm

I can't even begin to imagine what would happen if he were cleared. Would hate to be part of that jury, there's an enormous pressure that anything less than guilty of murder is the entirely wrong and unjust decision, regardless of what unfolds in the proceedings.

As for the guy himself, regardless of what happens or where he ends up, he'll be looking over his shoulder for the rest of his life. What a life that is, or will be. Even if hypothetically he was 100% cleared of any wrongdoing, he'd still forever remain the ultimate symbol of racial divide, injustice, discrimination and oppression, etc.

Regardless of the outcome, I hope he gets a fair trail and fair consideration from the jury based on the evidence and facts presented.

MrStuffins · 30-03-2021 2:17pm

irelandrover wrote: »

You seem to have read the word homicide, saw a video and hence decided Chavin is definitely guilty and deserves prison.

What others are saying on this thread is that maybe you should wait for the evidence from the court case.

That's fair enough. It will be interesting to hear what comes out in the trial.

Having said that, the evidence already established is pretty damning! It doesn't get much more conclusive than being caught on video.

Dempo1 · 30-03-2021 2:18pm

Weeks of mind numbingly repetitive analysis as commenced on CNN, even BBC news break in occasionally. A complete circus. I get what happened is appalling but mother of God do we need 24 hour rolling news coverage.

Early on, I was struck about the family of Floyd, they seem pretty much trailer park trash, struggling to put an entire sentance together. They at best disowned him and at best treated him like a parasite before this incident , suddenly they found God, Expensive lawyer's, The Odious Rev Al, PR advisors and new found love for their deceased sibling, Then followed the knee nonsense and a handsome payout.

The entire matter is odious, disgusting and distasteful. Try the Cop, examine the evident, convict or aquit, I'll be switching off this charade.

Christy42 · 30-03-2021 2:19pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The difference is there was no baying mob that time.

It does show that the system would happily acquit Chavin without care for the evidence. Somehow they decided that the city owed the victims family millions in that case but to put the cop back on active duty. Seems like madness.

Did they even change the rules after that initial case after seeing it could cause deaths needlessly I wonder.

Mellor · 30-03-2021 2:32pm

Baffling the amount of people arguing these charges, without knowing what the charges are.

walshb wrote: »

Yes, it transpired that he was in a bad way. But the defence will argue that Chauvin did not deliberately end his life..

He’s not accused of doing it deliberately.

Pussyhands wrote: »

Was the intent there to kill him though? Did Chauvin think "I'm gonna stay here until the guys dies."?

No there was no intent. He’s want to be insane to intentionally kill a man publicly. But how is that relevant. He’s not accused of killing him intentionally.

seamus wrote: »

In Ireland we call it manslaughter, in the US they call it 3rd-degree murder.

That’s not correct.
He’s charge with murder 3 and manslaughter. They the same charge nor the same sentence.

Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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