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Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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    #122
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    So the prosecution said that the fentanyl didn't kill him. Great.

    They would though


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    #123
    Pussyhands
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Slipping in the shower is an accident.

    Kneeling on someone's neck until they die is no accident

    Was the intent there to kill him though? Did Chauvin think "I'm gonna stay here until the guys dies."?

    I don't think you can say yes with any confidence. I think he wanted to make him uncomfortable and restrain him. Floyd wasn't going into the car. He was restraining arrest.

    Floyd was the boy who cried wolf. He told lie after lie up to the time Chauvin went on his neck so when he started saying he couldn't breathe, it could only be assumed it was a tactic from Floyd to get away.


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    #124
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    paw patrol wrote: »
    I'm merely an observer out of curiosity.

    I've no connection to USA , never been and maybe never will - and I don't care too much about it other than lamenting the influence the USA has on our life/economy and culture.
    Maybe that is my bias ?who knows...

    At least you're willing to admit you have a bias.


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    #125
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    Was the intent there to kill him though? Did Chauvin think "I'm gonna stay here until the guys dies."?

    Pre-meditated murder? We'll see.

    What's very clear is that he was killed by the hand of Mr. Chavin. Mr. Chavin did not need to kill him and his actions led to Mr. Floyd's death.

    He's culpable.


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    #126
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,497 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    So the prosecution said that the fentanyl didn't kill him. Great.
    :rolleyes:
    The fact they had to a) address it and b) address the fact that he had a lethal dose in his system is telling.


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    #127
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    V8 Interceptor wrote: »
    He had the C19 virus.

    Mod

    Dont post in this thread again.


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    #128
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,497 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    Pre-meditated murder? We'll see.

    What's very clear is that he was killed by the hand of Mr. Chavin. Mr. Chavin did not need to kill him and his actions led to Mr. Floyd's death.

    He's culpable.


    He may have been culpable but he's not murder 2 culpable.
    He could have been tried for involuntary manslaughter at most, and that would probably have succeeded as the burden of proof of intent would be lower.


    Murder 2 you have to prove intent. Involuntary manslaughter is what happened here.


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    #129
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ELM327 wrote: »
    It's a pity that the detained man died but there is no way you can say (at all, let alone beyond reasonable doubt) given the history of multiple drug abuse and the lethal level of fentanyl in the mans blood, that his death was solely attributable to officer Chauvin's actions.
    You don't have to prove that the officer's actions alone killed him.

    Merely that he would not have died if the officer wasn't kneeling on his neck.

    Narcotics and health issues aside, the question is, "Would Floyd have died if the officer had not been kneeling on his neck?".

    The answer there is pretty obvious - no.

    Once you've cleared that out of the way then you need to decide whether the officer kneeling on his neck was an appropriate action.

    If it was appropriate, then you can go back to the discussion on narcotics to decide if it was just bad luck.

    If it wasn't appropriate, the condition of George Floyd's health is irrelevant.


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    #130
    paw patrol
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭paw patrol


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    At least you're willing to admit you have a bias.

    I love your posts , genuinely.
    your ability to extract an obscure meaning from selective quote is an art

    I tip my hat to you


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    #131
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,497 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    He didn't OD though. You're making that up.

    You say so yourself
    I never said he OD'd though,it was a hypothetical thought question. As I'm sure you're aware.


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    #132
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,497 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    paw patrol wrote: »
    I love you
    Awh thanks.
    (see what I did there!)


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    #133
    Baggly
    Registered Users Posts: 35,024 ✭✭✭✭Baggly


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    At least you're willing to admit you have a bias.
    paw patrol wrote: »
    I love your posts , genuinely.
    your ability to extract an obscure meaning from selective quote is an art

    I tip my hat to you
    ELM327 wrote: »
    I never said he OD'd though,it was a hypothetical thought question. As I'm sure you're aware.

    Mod

    Leave it there and back on topic, please.


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    #134
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    Was the intent there to kill him though? Did Chauvin think "I'm gonna stay here until the guys dies."?
    You don't need to want to kill someone to be charged with murder. You only need an intent to cause harm - "malice aforethought".


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    #135
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,497 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    seamus wrote: »
    You don't have to prove that the officer's actions alone killed him.

    Merely that he would not have died if the officer wasn't kneeling on his neck.

    Narcotics and health issues aside, the question is, "Would Floyd have died if the officer had not been kneeling on his neck?".

    The answer there is pretty obvious - no.

    Once you've cleared that out of the way then you need to decide whether the officer kneeling on his neck was an appropriate action.

    If it was appropriate, then you can go back to the discussion on narcotics to decide if it was just bad luck.

    If it wasn't appropriate, the condition of George Floyd's health is irrelevant.
    That;s a pretty big disregard.
    If it's "pretty obvious" why bother with a trial at all? Let's hang up Officer Chauvin and make him a scapegoat for all america's problems. Like the white knights have already done, tried and convicted before the trial even started.


    And before you say that;'s an american thing, we do it here too. Trial by social media.


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    #136
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,497 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    seamus wrote: »
    You don't need to want to kill someone to be charged with murder. You only need an intent to cause harm - "malice aforethought".
    And is taking reasonable actions to detain a suspect who was noted by the caller to 911 as "off his face", as well as lying multiple times about going in the car, an intent to cause harm - "malice aforethought"


    I think not.


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    #137
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ELM327 wrote: »
    That;s a pretty big disregard.
    If it's "pretty obvious" why bother with a trial at all?

    Because the question is whether the killing was lawful or unlawful. Of course there is a theoretical, statistical, tiny possibility that if George Floyd hadn't been arrested, he would have just dropped dead on the street.

    But the fact that he was walking and talking, then his neck was kneeled on and ten minutes later he was dead, suggests a particularly high probability that's what killed him.

    You answer the question - if Floyd had not been stopped by the cops, do you believe with any degree of likelihood he would have just spontaneously dropped dead in those ten minutes?


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    #138
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,184 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ELM327 wrote: »
    And is taking reasonable actions to detain a suspect who was noted by the caller to 911 as "off his face", as well as lying multiple times about going in the car, an intent to cause harm - "malice aforethought"


    I think not.

    kneeling on the neck of someone for nine minutes while they are handcuffed on the ground is nobodies idea of reasonable.


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    #139
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭Christy42


    seamus wrote: »
    Because the question is whether the killing was lawful or unlawful. Of course there is a theoretical, statistical, tiny possibility that if George Floyd hadn't been arrested, he would have just dropped dead on the street.

    But the fact that he was walking and talking, then his neck was kneeled on and ten minutes later he was dead, suggests a particularly high probability that's what killed him.

    You answer the question - if Floyd had not been stopped by the cops, do you believe with any degree of likelihood he would have just spontaneously dropped dead in those ten minutes?

    There are also autopsy reports mentioning that it wasn't the drugs that killed him.


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    #140
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    So the prosecution said that the fentanyl didn't kill him. Great.

    It could have been a major contributing factor though. Floyd was saying he couldn't breath before he was placed on the ground. Maybe fentanyl and other drugs and COVID-19 along with Chauvin played a part. Maybe if Chauvin did to me what he did to Floyd, I wouldn't have died because I didn't have a cocktail of drugs in me.

    Medical evidence and police training will be what decides this case.......I hope.


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    #141
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,497 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    seamus wrote: »
    Because the question is whether the killing was lawful or unlawful. Of course there is a theoretical, statistical, tiny possibility that if George Floyd hadn't been arrested, he would have just dropped dead on the street.

    But the fact that he was walking and talking, then his neck was kneeled on and ten minutes later he was dead, suggests a particularly high probability that's what killed him.

    You answer the question - if Floyd had not been stopped by the cops, do you believe with any degree of likelihood he would have just spontaneously dropped dead in those ten minutes?


    You or I have no idea what the fentanyl and other drugs would have done to his system.

    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    kneeling on the neck of someone for nine minutes while they are handcuffed on the ground is nobodies idea of reasonable.
    Let's see what the jury decide. Suffice it to say I agree to disagree with you on this one. :)


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    #142
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,497 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It could have been a major contributing factor though. Floyd was saying he couldn't breath before he was placed on the ground. Maybe fentanyl and other drugs and COVID-19 along with Chauvin played a part. Maybe if Chauvin did to me what he did to Floyd, I wouldn't have died because I didn't have a cocktail of drugs in me.

    Medical evidence and police training will be what decides this case.......I hope.
    I hope that this is the case, and that the jury is not swayed by bayings of white knights and black supremacists outside the trial location and on social media.


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    #143
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It could have been a major contributing factor though........

    It wasn't. Both autopsies said so.

    This has already been established


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    #144
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    seamus wrote: »
    Because the question is whether the killing was lawful or unlawful. Of course there is a theoretical, statistical, tiny possibility that if George Floyd hadn't been arrested, he would have just dropped dead on the street.

    But the fact that he was walking and talking, then his neck was kneeled on and ten minutes later he was dead, suggests a particularly high probability that's what killed him.

    You answer the question - if Floyd had not been stopped by the cops, do you believe with any degree of likelihood he would have just spontaneously dropped dead in those ten minutes?
    Someone on this thread said he ingested whatever drugs he had on him when the cops showed up, while already being out of it, someone else said it would be some coincidence if he OD'd when the cop was kneeling on his neck...

    So maybe he'd be alive if they didn't show up.


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    #145
    ELM327
    Registered Users Posts: 21,497 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    It wasn't. Both autopsies said so.

    This has already been established
    Even though he had a lethal dose in his bloodstream?
    Come on.


    Lets await the trial before prejudging.


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    #146
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    What are the bets that those calling for this guy to get away with this killing are the same lads who want no Covid restrictions, call Trump the greatest US President, spend a lot of time talking about immigration and use the term "woke" a lot?
    paw patrol wrote: »
    I'm neutral until I hear actual evidence not agenda driven propaganda nor wailing from over emotional grief junkies.
    ELM327 wrote: »
    I hope that this is the case, and that the jury is not swayed by bayings of white knights and black supremacists outside the trial location and on social media.

    When you're right, you're right!


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    #147
    MrStuffins
    Registered Users Posts: 19,148 ✭✭✭✭MrStuffins


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Even though he had a lethal dose in his bloodstream?

    Correct. This is what the autopsies have shown. Both of them.


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    #148
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,184 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    ELM327 wrote: »
    Even though he had a lethal dose in his bloodstream?
    Come on.


    Lets await the trial before prejudging.

    no prejudging required. we know what the autopsies say.


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    #149
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MrStuffins wrote: »
    When you're right, you're right!

    Both those posters were calling for a fair trial, for all evidence to be heard and people not to be prejudiced because of the BLM mob.

    What part of that do you disagree with?


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    #150
    Nozebleed
    Registered Users Posts: 1,727 ✭✭✭Nozebleed


    is the trial being televised? any links??


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    #151
    LessOutragePlz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭LessOutragePlz


    How long is the trial expected to take?


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