Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward

the baby bull elephant · 27-02-2021 12:12pm

pixelburp wrote: »

The character is near 100 years old and the Cavill superman is an outlier given he is, predominantly, a comicbook character not a movie one so that's what I presume Coates was taking as his intellectual jumping off point. Which seems likely given Coates has written for (Black Panther) comics. You can't really talk of what Superman is broadly without examining the comics, which inform 99% of the characters genetics, literal or metaphorical.

Cavill was a good fit for the role but his Superman was not that emblematic of the character as seen and loved from the pages. Synder's films have deliberately framed Supes powers as a sometimes terrible burden, mixed with heavy-handed, occasional Christ allegories - so yeah, conservatism ain't that far away in the films either.

For sure, if we go far enough back, then Superman was just a power fantasy for a couple of jewish writers, the character neither alien nor had the ability to fly, so it's all a bit of a moveable feast; but the template by which we know the character has a strong American conservative ethic.

I get what you're saying but it's also worth remembering that golden age Superman regularly dealt with corrupt slumlords. The radio show which codified a lot of what we know of modern day Superman had him fighting the Klan. Since the 80s his main villain has basically been the American conservative ideal, a self-made (though this does flip-flop) business man who was once even president. I agree people can pin their own beliefs on him, as is somewhat purposeful, but it's ignoring a lot for conservatives to throw him up as their paragon.

Of course if it's not GA or Hawkman DC editorial does try to keep characters as apolitical as possible.

pixelburp · 27-02-2021 12:40pm

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

I get what you're saying but it's also worth remembering that golden age Superman regularly dealt with corrupt slumlords. The radio show which codified a lot of what we know of modern day Superman had him fighting the Klan. Since the 80s his main villain has basically been the American conservative ideal, a self-made (though this does flip-flop) business man who was once even president. I agree people can pin their own beliefs on him, as is somewhat purposeful, but it's ignoring a lot for conservatives to throw him up as their paragon.

Of course if it's not GA or Hawkman DC editorial does try to keep characters as apolitical as possible.

You're not wrong, I take that perspective all right, but there's a certain ... uh oh here I go ... cultural appropriation that goes on with these kind of characters, regardless of the truth of their history. The most recent example I can think of would be something Pepe the Frog, an otherwise frivolous web-cartoon character, who became appropriated by the American Right for strategic meme purposes :pac: Rightly or wrongly, icons like Mickey Mouse, Superman et al became emblematic of this myth of "America". In Marvel's case, literally making their own national superman with Cap. Amerca (it's still a remarkable feat that the movies somehow side-stepped that jingoism, making Cap a hero to cheer in this day & age)

Superman was certainly seen to stand up to malevolent forces in American society in the pages, but he also became something of a symbol of institutional conservatism at the same time: from his colour scheme to his farming background - even your examples could be framed as the White Saviour in action - so yeah. I could see how young kids like Ta-Nehisi Coates might have found Superman irrelevant, even regressive, growing up.

After all, it wasn't without reason that Frank Miller, for all his faults, made an astute move in writing Superman a literal stooge of the US government in The Dark Knight Returns (at this stage, perhaps the most overtaxed well in comics fiction?). It suddenly made a lot of sense really; Red Son flipped it a little in making him ruler of Russia. While other works like The Boys really took that idea and ran it into the ground with Homelander. Brightburn attempted an off-brand "what if Superman, but evil?" too, so the idea of Superman as a unilateral force was never that far away in the margins.

Yikes. I do apologise to anyone reading this and thinking "Jesus Christ, he's just a fun superhero", but I think the history of the character is fascinating - even if I'm not that big a fan of the character itself.

CastorTroy · 27-02-2021 1:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I do think you could get a great horror film out of him now that I think about it...

Just need to wait for a Brightburn sequel

silverharp · 27-02-2021 8:48pm

pixelburp wrote: »

The character is near 100 years old and the Cavill superman is an outlier given he is, predominantly, a comicbook character not a movie one so that's what I presume Coates was taking as his intellectual jumping off point. Which seems likely given Coates has written for (Black Panther) comics. You can't really talk of what Superman is broadly without examining the comics, which inform 99% of the characters genetics, literal or metaphorical.

Cavill was a good fit for the role but his Superman was not that emblematic of the character as seen and loved from the pages. Synder's films have deliberately framed Supes powers as a sometimes terrible burden, mixed with heavy-handed, occasional Christ allegories - so yeah, conservatism ain't that far away in the films either.

For sure, if we go far enough back, then Superman was just a power fantasy for a couple of jewish writers, the character neither alien nor had the ability to fly, so it's all a bit of a moveable feast; but the template by which we know the character has a strong American conservative ethic.

i dont read comics, as far as films go they should be self contained and enough there to work with. With the new Superman and Lois show they are setting up a bridge between rural and urban America and seem to making a good job of it.
JJ almost guarantees the film will be at best vapid

I saw this 2019 meme bouncing around recently, i'd be focusing more on how the film be a ruined rather than looking for neckbeards to be upset

ThePott · 27-02-2021 9:57pm

The investigator on the Justice League cast have come out and backed up that Hamada did not interfere with the investigation and that Ray Fisher's comments to the contrary are false.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/justice-league-investigator-backs-dc-films-walter-hamada-after-ray-fisher-claims?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

The White Wolf · 27-02-2021 10:02pm

ThePott wrote: »

The investigator on the Justice League cast have come out and backed up that Hamada did not interfere with the investigation and that Ray Fisher's comments to the contrary are false.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/justice-league-investigator-backs-dc-films-walter-hamada-after-ray-fisher-claims?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

It's quite humourous that WB rode the wave of Fisher's accusations until he dare tried undermining their Black Superman announcement.

Aside from that Fisher is on the record saying WB initially went with their own investigatorbefore they agreed to an independent investigator. I assume this guy is the former one.

ThePott · 27-02-2021 11:06pm

The White Wolf wrote: »

Aside from that Fisher is on the record saying WB initially went with their own investigatorbefore they agreed to an independent investigator. I assume this guy is the former one.

Former federal judge so I would assume it was an independent investigator. Tbh considering they got as far as Charisma Carpenter in their investigation I think it seems like it was pretty above board. I hadn't heard that WB had their own investigator from anyone aside from Fisher.

If we're honest though I don't know was he happy with the results of the investigation anyway and what result he actually wanted.

Agent Coulson · 27-02-2021 11:29pm

They have released a statement from 1 of 3 investigations why not release a statement from all 3 investigators?

WarnerMedia shared a statement from a retired federal judge who oversaw one of three investigations into misconduct on the set of Justice League

I interviewed him extensively on more than one occasion and specifically interviewed him concerning his very limited interaction with Mr. Fisher. I found Mr. Hamada credible and forthcoming. I concluded that he did nothing that impeded or interfered with the investigation. To the contrary, the information that he provided was useful and advanced the investigation

Unless the other two investigators statements contradict what the released one is saying.

At this stage now Fisher needs to stop beating around the bush and just say what happened or just stop.

The White Wolf · 27-02-2021 11:36pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

They have released a statement from 1 of 3 investigations why not release a statement from all 3 investigators?

Unless the other two investigators statements contradict what the released one is saying.

At this stage now Fisher needs to stop beating around the bush and just say what happened or just stop.

Well legally speaking Fisher is tied up in knots I imagine. I'm sure he'd like to be more specific but literally can't otherwise he's going to get sued beyond what would be a life worth living.

It's pretty desperate that this was WB's smoking gun statement when the credibility of this investigator is in doubt putting I mildly.

Need a Username · 27-02-2021 11:56pm

silverharp wrote: »

i dont read comics, as far as films go they should be self contained and enough there to work with. With the new Superman and Lois show they are setting up a bridge between rural and urban America and seem to making a good job of it.
JJ almost guarantees the film will be at best vapid

I saw this 2019 meme bouncing around recently, i'd be focusing more on how the film be a ruined rather than looking for neckbeards to be upset

That image sums it up

ThePott · 28-02-2021 12:39am

The White Wolf wrote: »

Well legally speaking Fisher is tied up in knots I imagine.

I don't know how tbh. If there was something illegal then an NDA should be void. If nothing illegal took place he should be able to speak on it assuming it is verifiable. He's said that the reaons they haven't sued him is because what he's said is true (as to what he's actually said that would be actionable is another question).

What he has implied though is that multiple people have been part of a massive cover up of abuse and that the upper echelon of WB obstructed an investigation. That would be actionable on their part but they are unlikely to because of the optics of it and would seemingly prove what he has implied.

It's like a big game of chicken.

28-02-2021 11:07am

Somewhat related, the Superman and Lois pilot came out the other day and it really took a fresh approach to superman. Really enjoyed it.

pixelburp · 28-02-2021 11:15am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Somewhat related, the Superman and Lois pilot came out the other day and it really took a fresh approach to superman. Really enjoyed it.

Yeah I'm hearing a lot of good things, and it doesn't look like a typical CW production which is nice. Like they actually hired people who can shoot a scene in a vaguely interesting way.

ThePott · 28-02-2021 12:41pm

The Phantom Pain wrote: »

Which just goes to show that Hollywood learns the wrong lessons from success stories (it’s why we ended up with mopey Superman after the Dark Knight trilogy).

The DCEU has always been quite reactionary, to a fault. It's what's lead to an inconsistent tone and quality in their output.

The Phantom Pain wrote: »

The mentality that WB has “nothing left to lose” is what is killing the Superman brand. People do like Superman…when he’s done right. WB thinks they have a “Superman problem” but they don’t; they have a “WB problem” and that’s why the DCEU will never be as successful as the MCU.

I don't disagree. Superman is a character that there is absolutely massive money in but they mishandle him consistently. They wrongly assume that it is a character that is outdated because they haven't gotten it to work since Superman II. If they think the American Boy Scout character can't work in this day and age then how did Marvel get Captain America to work. It's all about how you handle the character. They just keep learning the wrong lessons. First it was, look at Dark Knight, a darker realistic Superman could work. Then it was, look at the Avengers, let's build to Justice League, quickly. They don't understand how to handle these characters and now they have this half formed universe they don't know what to do with. It's a mess.

mikhail · 28-02-2021 1:46pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Why not, as said the tale of Superman is that of the ultimate immigrant story; so why not make Clark black to underline the point? It could work perfectly well.

The neckbeard rage will be epic though. I daresay even the Ben Shapiro's of the world will get involved too; they had a fit when "truth justice and the American way" got shelved back in the day. This will cause collective aneurysms

I'd like to see a black Superman. There's an interesting story to be told about a black kid being raised by adoptive (white?) parents in the mid-west, and about a Superman who some people can't accept because of the colour of his skin (and who saves them anyway because he's a hero). I'm thinking of the monologue in Kill Bill part 2 about how Superman is the only hero whose costume is who he really is - that Clarke Kent is the disguise and implicitly his criticism of humanity - and race would add an edge to that angle on the character. I can only imagine how heavy-handedly it'd be written though, to the point where I fear it would be unwatchable.

Penn · 28-02-2021 2:01pm

ThePott wrote: »

The DCEU has always been quite reactionary, to a fault. It's what's lead to an inconsistent tone and quality in their output.

I don't disagree. Superman is a character that there is absolutely massive money in but they mishandle him consistently. They wrongly assume that it is a character that is outdated because they haven't gotten it to work since Superman II. If they think the American Boy Scout character can't work in this day and age then how did Marvel get Captain America to work. It's all about how you handle the character. They just keep learning the wrong lessons. First it was, look at Dark Knight, a darker realistic Superman could work. Then it was, look at the Avengers, let's build to Justice League, quickly. They don't understand how to handle these characters and now they have this half formed universe they don't know what to do with. It's a mess.

Man of Steel was just "Imagine what a burden it must be to be Superman". Which is a fair enough question to ask, but the trouble was it wasn't balanced in any way with the good. Then in Batman V Superman, they took Batman to the very limits of his darkness with the 'Dark Knight Returns' aspect. But then instead of contrasting that with the light and hopeful side of Superman's character, they just continued with "It still sucks to be Superman". Which means we got a dark and gloomy Batman V a slightly less dark and gloomy Superman. Hell they even 'dark and gloomy-ed' Wonder Woman in it by revealing she turned her back on humanity for decades.

They don't need to go the cheery jokey Marvel route with the characters, but if you have a character who literally wears a symbol of hope on his chest, give the audience a glimpse of that hope once in a while. One of my favourite scenes in Man of Steel is the end where Superman crashes General Swanwick's drone, because it really felt like seeing what Superman could become in a sequel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYkvRm_Zokk

silverharp · 28-02-2021 2:13pm

mikhail wrote: »

I'd like to see a black Superman. There's an interesting story to be told about a black kid being raised by adoptive (white?) parents in the mid-west, and about a Superman who some people can't accept because of the colour of his skin (and who saves them anyway because he's a hero). I'm thinking of the monologue in Kill Bill part 2 about how Superman is the only hero whose costume is who he really is - that Clarke Kent is the disguise and implicitly his criticism of humanity - and race would add an edge to that angle on the character. I can only imagine how heavy-handedly it'd be written though, to the point where I fear it would be unwatchable.

i kinda think if you can play it out in your head, why would you want to see it? Coates I picture wanting to use the film as a megaphone and lay it on thick. Set the film in the 60's for extra spice lol

People go to superhero films to switch their brains off, the market is centered around kids and parents bringing their kids or as least it my case it is, if I want social commentary Ill watch a film like Green Book.

ThePott · 28-02-2021 2:21pm

Penn wrote: »

They don't need to go the cheery jokey Marvel route with the characters, but if you have a character who literally wears a symbol of hope on his chest, give the audience a glimpse of that hope once in a while. One of my favourite scenes in Man of Steel is the end where Superman crashes General Swanwick's drone, because it really felt like seeing what Superman could become in a sequel.

I agree, in fact I think Man of Steel being used as a basis to get us to the Superman character we know (on paper at least) works. I remember seeing MOS and thinking well it looks like we're going to get a more hopeful Superman now and thinking that's great.

When I started seeing previews for BvS, I knew what the problem was going to be. Despite the fact that Batman and Superman would be so easy to juxtapose against each other, they'd fumbled it. When they stuck with having Superman be dark and gloomy then you have no choice but to make Batman even darker, the line blurs even further and it doesn't work when the characters are meant to be opposing each other especially.

The dumb criticism I always see though is that DC is dark and therefore mature and not like Marvel. Especially the way that the DCEU has done 'dark'. The Dark Knight despite being dark had plenty of levity and cheese to it that people are happy to overlook. People saying that Marvel can't do dark are wrong too, Infinity War was pretty dark but it balances it well. Wonder Woman has a balance of dark and serious with moments of levity and dare I say, wonder. Snyder doesn't want to present them as heroes. He wants them presented as conflicted and flawed Gods, while that can be interesting I don't personally think he has the skill to pull something like that off successfully, certainly not within the realms of a studio blockbuster with a familiar IP like DC superheroes.

Drumpot · 28-02-2021 2:38pm

Imagine they had the avengers movie just after iron man. It wouldn’t of been nearly as enjoyable as it was.

Regardless of what people think of Snyder or the movies he makes, he was given an unenviable task of trying to introduce an awful lot of characters over 2 movies (BvS and JL).

Another issue is that there is a unique brand to Snyder that I don’t think would work like the marvel movies that all Nicely fit together. That’s not an insult, I love the marvel movies, just finished watching them all in sequence and it was glorious. But I don’t want or need DC to follow the same formula as marvel. Marvel do enough marvel type movies , dc need to be different and at least with Snyder they tried (whether you think it was good or not).

WW and Aquaman movies just don’t fit as seamless into the Snyder verse as the likes of iron man, Thor and the cap fit into the a avengers assemble movie.

I think superman is a difficult character to bring to the big screen as he’s so over powered. His main weakness is Lois lane, kryptonite and other kryptonians. Marvels super hero’s had plenty of vulnerability’s until they brought captain marvel in who is a character taht sort of ruins the team like superman just showing up in JL and practically toying with steppanwolf.

In terms of the Snyder cut I’m looking forward to it. I’m not expecting it to be amazing or anything, just happy to see what he wouid of tried to do particularly with no oversight. Some people seem to be annoyed at this, I don’t know why, it’s no skin off anybody else’s skin that this has been made. There are no losers with the Snyder cut so it should be a positively fascinating thing to look forward to if you have any interest in this topic.

pixelburp · 28-02-2021 2:44pm

silverharp wrote: »

i kinda think if you can play it out in your head, why would you want to see it? Coates I picture wanting to use the film as a megaphone and lay it on thick. Set the film in the 60's for extra spice lol

People go to superhero films to switch their brains off, the market is centered around kids and parents bringing their kids or as least it my case it is, if I want social commentary Ill watch a film like Green Book.

Were that 100% true, Black Panther would have bombed though. Or indeed Captain Marvel (a slightly bad example as I think that was an awful script) Social commentary and blockbuster entertainment isn't mutually exclusive, good writers can thread both and really good writers do it without you having even realised.

Coates' own background in comics is writing for Black Panther - and a fairly lauded run IIRC - so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt he can walk that line of superficial thrills and some commentary here and there.

It's the studios that often throw grenades into writers intentions, that's where the clash can often come.

silverharp · 28-02-2021 10:19pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Were that 100% true, Black Panther would have bombed though. Or indeed Captain Marvel (a slightly bad example as I think that was an awful script) Social commentary and blockbuster entertainment isn't mutually exclusive, good writers can thread both and really good writers do it without you having even realised.

Coates' own background in comics is writing for Black Panther - and a fairly lauded run IIRC - so I'd give him the benefit of the doubt he can walk that line of superficial thrills and some commentary here and there.

It's the studios that often throw grenades into writers intentions, that's where the clash can often come.

I dont remember Black Panther being preachy and I got the satire of Wakanda being an ethno-nationalist isolationist state, it depends how its done I guess

Lithium93_ · 04-03-2021 5:56pm

The films mammoth run time is split into 6 chapters..

Need a Username · 04-03-2021 10:08pm

Superman better be in red & blue.

ThePott · 04-03-2021 10:57pm

Need a Username wrote: »

Superman better be in red & blue.

Prepare to be let down

dublinman1990 · 05-03-2021 3:52am

A teaser for Batman has appeared.

https://batman-news.com/2021/03/04/zack-snyders-justice-league-batman-teaser-video/

The White Wolf · 05-03-2021 8:13am

Darkseid sounds exactly as I hoped he would anyway.

Really cool clip of Superman litterally pulling Batman up and out of the dark and into the light.

Need a Username · 05-03-2021 10:00am

ThePott wrote: »

Prepare to be let down

Are you just being pessimistic or do you know something?

CramCycle · 05-03-2021 12:24pm

Need a Username wrote: »

Are you just being pessimistic or do you know something?

He is in all the trailers in Black, might be red and blue in flashbacks or at the end of the movie as an outro but I imagine for most of it he is in Black for the regenerative suit thing, not sure if they will go into that though.

senordingdong · 05-03-2021 12:41pm

Lithium93_ wrote: »

The films mammoth run time is split into 6 chapters..

Works for Tarantino.

Need a Username · 05-03-2021 3:27pm

CramCycle wrote: »

He is in all the trailers in Black, might be red and blue in flashbacks or at the end of the movie as an outro but I imagine for most of it he is in Black for the regenerative suit thing, not sure if they will go into that though.

I don’t like that but at least I know to not expect the red&blue in the big fight.

ThePott · 05-03-2021 4:00pm

Need a Username wrote: »

Are you just being pessimistic or do you know something?

Well assuming the end of the movie is largely the same with the team assembled after defeating Steppenwolf, he is in the black suit. That's the basis for my assumption.
Good chance he won't be wearing the red and blue because Snyder had a 5 film arc for Superman.

Need a Username · 05-03-2021 5:48pm

ThePott wrote: »

Well assuming the end of the movie is largely the same with the team assembled after defeating Steppenwolf, he is in the black suit. That's the basis for my assumption.
Good chance he won't be wearing the red and blue because Snyder had a 5 film arc for Superman.

A pity.

Do you mention the 5 film arc as in Superman would have gone back to red & blue in a later movie?

CramCycle · 05-03-2021 5:54pm

ThePott wrote: »

Well assuming the end of the movie is largely the same with the team assembled after defeating Steppenwolf, he is in the black suit. That's the basis for my assumption.
Good chance he won't be wearing the red and blue because Snyder had a 5 film arc for Superman.

Interesting, I have no idea what to expect, I presumed with the change to no follow on films that Synder was going to have that half way and have far more after that point,

ThePott · 05-03-2021 6:04pm

Need a Username wrote: »

A pity.
Do you mention the 5 film arc as in Superman would have gone back to red & blue in a later movie?

Well that's an assumption on my part but he has talked about how basically the 5 films would have brought Superman into being the Superman we all know and love. With MoS, BvS and a JL trilogy. I assumed that he wouldn't get back into the traditional costume until that point. Recently at an exhibition they have revealed what those sequel plans would be, haven't read it myself yet as I'm worried it could spoil elements of the ZSJL.

CramCycle wrote: »

Interesting, I have no idea what to expect, I presumed with the change to no follow on films that Synder was going to have that half way and have far more after that point,

Well a lot of people are still suggesting that there is plenty of stuff left open for sequels that will likely never happen. IMO at least I don't think there will be much more after where the theatrical cut ended, it seems a lot of the new filmed stuff was Knightmare footage and that will be in the middle somewhere presumably.

The White Wolf · 05-03-2021 6:34pm

The funny thing is that if Cavill got that 5 film arc that he would have mirrored what so many fans are loving about the CW Superman. I'm fairly certain Snyder said Clark was going to be the Superman we all know eventually but that he had to earn it first.

ThePott · 05-03-2021 6:49pm

The White Wolf wrote: »

The funny thing is that if Cavill got that 5 film arc that he would have mirrored what so many fans are loving about the CW Superman. I'm fairly certain Snyder said Clark was going to be the Superman we all know eventually but that he had to earn it first.

Well here's the 5 film arc https://imgur.com/a/hmBpUZX
Tbh I don't think this would have worked, certainly doesn't make me feel like this would finally give us the Superman we know.

Read it for yourself, it's an interesting read at least. it doesn't really spoil anything imo anyway.

The White Wolf · 05-03-2021 7:01pm

ThePott wrote: »

Well here's the 5 film arc https://imgur.com/a/hmBpUZX
Tbh I don't think this would have worked, certainly doesn't make me feel like this would finally give us the Superman we know.

Read it for yourself, it's an interesting read at least. it doesn't really spoil anything imo anyway.

I've seen that but the Superman we know has a broad definition. I mean that clip that was released yesterday and seeing Clark lift Bruce up with a nod of encouragement....that seems like the Clark I know and love as he's literally picking up those around him. I hope there's a decent bit of that in the SC because all signs point to it being Cavill's last appearance.

05-03-2021 7:24pm

ThePott wrote: »

Well here's the 5 film arc https://imgur.com/a/hmBpUZX
Tbh I don't think this would have worked, certainly doesn't make me feel like this would finally give us the Superman we know.

Read it for yourself, it's an interesting read at least. it doesn't really spoil anything imo anyway.

Thanks for that, interesting read. I think I'll go now and watch Requiem For A Dream just to lighten the mood a bit.

ThePott · 05-03-2021 7:26pm

The White Wolf wrote: »

I've seen that but the Superman we know has a broad definition. I mean that clip that was released yesterday and seeing Clark lift Bruce up with a nod of encouragement....that seems like the Clark I know and love as he's literally picking up those around him. I hope there's a decent bit of that in the SC because all signs point to it being Cavill's last appearance.

I dunno, I gotta disagree. The whole arc of Superman is focused almost entirely on Batman. He spends a lot of one of these films disattached from Lois before she gets killed and then becomes a murderous tyrant to Earth.

He does that for most of the next film. The only change to his character is because Batman makes a sacrifice, nothing Superman actively does. Then he becomes "Clark again" to raise Lois and Bruce Wayne's baby. How is this some inspirational hero?

I'm sorry I don't see how this 'redeems' Superman. Obviously a lot of it is execution but even still, I don't know how this is A) Like the Superman we all know or

An inspiring hopefuly character.

RobbingBandit · 05-03-2021 7:33pm

Flash said Lois is the key she is Supermans anchor to his humanity his identity as Clark Kent was Martha and Johnathan Kent and later Lois with two of the three gone and given Lois is ripped away in brutal fashion he will turn dark.

Batman has an ethical code everyone is redeemable no one need be killed this is what will cause a split in the superhero ranks.

The White Wolf · 05-03-2021 7:58pm

ThePott wrote: »

I dunno, I gotta disagree. The whole arc of Superman is focused almost entirely on Batman. He spends a lot of one of these films disattached from Lois before she gets killed and then becomes a murderous tyrant to Earth.

He does that for most of the next film. The only change to his character is because Batman makes a sacrifice, nothing Superman actively does. Then he becomes "Clark again" to raise Lois and Bruce Wayne's baby. How is this some inspirational hero?

I'm sorry I don't see how this 'redeems' Superman. Obviously a lot of it is execution but even still, I don't know how this is A) Like the Superman we all know or An inspiring hopefuly character.

I can only judge based on what I saw in the clip.

Look we all know Snyder went wild with his interpretation of the character but I'd have to question the legitimacy of that story outline you shared or at the very least question whether that was the locked in story direction. When Snyder spoke recently about Lois and Bruce being in a relationship he did say he had people advising on what might not work and this was one of the points.

I mean even the ending of MOS did not clearly suggest where the story was going to go with BvS so I find it hard to believe Snyder had a locked in 5 movie arc that wasn't going to evolve.

ThePott · 05-03-2021 8:32pm

The White Wolf wrote: »

Look we all know Snyder went wild with his interpretation of the character but I'd have to question the legitimacy of that story outline you shared or at the very least question whether that was the locked in story direction. When Snyder spoke recently about Lois and Bruce being in a relationship he did say he had people advising on what might not work and this was one of the points.

Seems weird to question the legitimacy. It's literally from a Zack Snyder exhibit with art by Jim Lee and got removed on Twiitter for copyright, it's legit. As I already said it's all in execution but this was what he wanted to do, obviously that would evolve depending on plenty of things but I don't know how you could look at this and say that this works IMO. Again was never suggesting this was set in stone, I follow film enough to know that is never the case, especially with a 5 film outline. I do think it shows that Zach was just not the right person to be handed the keys to the DCEU.

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Flash said Lois is the key she is Supermans anchor to his humanity his identity as Clark Kent was Martha and Johnathan Kent and later Lois with two of the three gone and given Lois is ripped away in brutal fashion he will turn dark.
Batman has an ethical code everyone is redeemable no one need be killed this is what will cause a split in the superhero ranks.

I'm sorry but that is just not right. Maybe in an Elseworlds story like Injustice but we're saying that the only reason Superman doesn't become a lunatic is Lois and Martha Kent. Superman is meant to forge a connection to Earth, it's his adopted homeworld. Jonathan and Martha are meant to instill in him a sense of humanity, of morality. I know they push the idea that "Lois is the Key" but that is just weak storytelling IMO. You're suggesting Superman's humanity only develops from a woman he met well into his life and only knew for 18 months. It only takes your hero losing that to turn into a villain?

I honestly don't understand your last point about Batman, that's not me having a go, I just don't see your meaning.

The White Wolf · 05-03-2021 9:53pm

So I found a more readable version of that storyboard...I'm rattled after reading it. Reminds me of how I felt when Snyder was hired for MOS with Nolan "Godfathering" as having someone Shepard Snyder seemed like an absolute necessity.

I'll give Snyder the benefit of the doubt and choose to believe this was just a fluid storyboard subject to change. I've no idea why he would go that route with Bruce and Lois other than finding some dumb reason to have Affleck and Adams sharing the screen for some "meaty" moments.

Penn · 05-03-2021 10:49pm

The White Wolf wrote: »

So I found a more readable version of that storyboard...I'm rattled after reading it. Reminds me of how I felt when Snyder was hired for MOS with Nolan "Godfathering" as having someone Shepard Snyder seemed like an absolute necessity.

I'll give Snyder the benefit of the doubt and choose to believe this was just a fluid storyboard subject to change. I've no idea why he would go that route with Bruce and Lois other than finding some dumb reason to have Affleck and Adams sharing the screen for some "meaty" moments.

Maybe in Snyder's version, Lois' father was also called Thomas.

RobbingBandit · 06-03-2021 12:38am

ThePott wrote: »

Seems weird to question the legitimacy. It's literally from a Zack Snyder exhibit with art by Jim Lee and got removed on Twiitter for copyright, it's legit. As I already said it's all in execution but this was what he wanted to do, obviously that would evolve depending on plenty of things but I don't know how you could look at this and say that this works IMO. Again was never suggesting this was set in stone, I follow film enough to know that is never the case, especially with a 5 film outline. I do think it shows that Zach was just not the right person to be handed the keys to the DCEU.

I'm sorry but that is just not right. Maybe in an Elseworlds story like Injustice but we're saying that the only reason Superman doesn't become a lunatic is Lois and Martha Kent. Superman is meant to forge a connection to Earth, it's his adopted homeworld. Jonathan and Martha are meant to instill in him a sense of humanity, of morality. I know they push the idea that "Lois is the Key" but that is just weak storytelling IMO. You're suggesting Superman's humanity only develops from a woman he met well into his life and only knew for 18 months. It only takes your hero losing that to turn into a villain?

I honestly don't understand your last point about Batman, that's not me having a go, I just don't see your meaning.

Batman doesn't kill is my point not even The Joker or Joe Chill.

I think the dystopian future borrows a lot from Injustice we will have to see just how much.

The people in Clark's life are what keeps him from going full on take them away and he has nothing but rage.

ThePott · 06-03-2021 1:02am

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Batman doesn't kill is my point not even The Joker or Joe Chill.

I think the dystopian future borrows a lot from Injustice we will have to see just how much.

The people in Clark's life are what keeps him from going full on take them away and he has nothing but rage.

Oh yeah I agree, that's another issue with the Snyderverse in my opinion. Even if I do think it has been a tad overblown. Injustice again works as a justification for heroes to fight each other, to build a universe on? Not so much.

I just don't agree with that idea of Superman either in his general characterisation or if that is how Snyder views the character. Clark Kent is a mild mannered man with strong morals, he doesn't only do good because of the people he cares about, by that logic why would he be a hero for anyone but them? He's not a raged filled psychopath on the edge of becoming a tyrant if he loses his old ones. Again works for Injustice but for a mainline Superhero that's pivotal to your universe, it just doesn't.

ItsHoggie · 06-03-2021 7:47pm

Anyone know what platform this will release on.

senordingdong · 06-03-2021 8:27pm

ItsHoggie wrote: »

Anyone know what platform this will release on.

Sky I presume. They are hbos partner in UK market

ThePott · 06-03-2021 8:38pm

ItsHoggie wrote: »

Anyone know what platform this will release on.

I was just thinking this, very odd it hasn't been announced yet. Wonder how quickly it will go up after it is on HBO Max, I know they said same day but I wonder.

Agent Coulson · 07-03-2021 9:33pm

I'd say it will go up on iTunes, Google Play, Sky Store and any other of the pay ones.

Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

Comments

Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward