Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

Tony EH

pixelburp wrote: »

Maybe not 'quippy', but earnest, and in another parallel with Marvel (ie, Captain America), with American jingoism they've generally dialled back the 'Truth, Justice & the American way' rhetoric. So Superman is more just an earnest, optimistic kind of guy. Not dour, more a loveable dufous really, the ultimate 'honest country guy' schtick.

AFAIK more recent publications have actually leaned more into Superman as an immigration story than Synder's tedious 'lonely god' angle, which to me is a far more interesting and original angle to take on the Superman story. Clark Kent is the ultimate outsider in these stories and his drama is in his coming to terms with trying to live a 'normal' human life - but no in this tortured angsty fashion.

He's still earnest in Snyder's movies though?

He's just more of a fish out of water, which suits the origin story that 'Man of Steel' sets up and 'Batman VS Superman' continues.

I get that some people wanted a lighter, more comicbook feel, but I still can't see it in the meltdown terms that were legion upon its release and if I'm honest, I'd rather watch the 70's version myself.

But, I get why Superman would be angsty in Snyder's films. His entire planet has been destroyed and the only folk left are the **** who destroyed it. Into the bargain, he's been sent off to a planet where everybody on it are completely alien to him and a large amount don't trust him.

I'd be kind of pissed off myself.

RayCun

Big problem for making a Superman film is that Marvel beat them to the punch with Captain America - an unironic hero type, and also fish out of water.

and the problem for any "but we're so serious and realistic" superhero movie is that the basic idea is silly. Maybe some millionaire is crazy enough to dress up in a costume and go around punching people, but he's not going to last long enough to get old and cynical. Week 2 he gets shot, and even if he survives that it will put a stop to his acrobatics. And all this grim grittiness looks absurd when you add superpowered aliens to the mix.

Watchmen (the book) leaned in to that. The Marvel movies don't pretend to be realistic.

Drumpot

One of my favourite superman movie moments I only saw a few years ago. It was from the donner cut of Superman II where he is talking with Jor El and he has to sacrifice his ties with his dad to get his powers back. I found that so much more hard hitting and more powerful then “the original” with his mum.

Isn’t Lois Lane always Superman’s human connection to the world ? Isn’t that usually what drives him to stay and try to keep doing the right thing? Snyder at least tried something different with his mother and I do and I don’t get the backlash TBH.

When you reflect on the “2 Martha’s” revelation it wasn’t actually bad at all. It was a fact (both named Martha) that already existed in the universe. In MOS we saw how attached sups was to his mother. The start of BvS was Batman’s folks being killed and throughout we saw how much his mother’s death in particular haunted him, particularly as “Martha” was his dads last breath. I think Batman being snapped out of his rage for sups was perfectly rational, “save Martha”. On rewatch it’s quite powerful IMO. But if you don’t like it or the movie I can see why it got so much hate even if I don’t share these sentiments.

Penn

Tony EH wrote: »

But, I get why Superman would be angsty in Snyder's films. His entire planet has been destroyed and the only folk left are the **** who destroyed it. Into the bargain, he's been sent off to a planet where everybody on it are completely alien to him and a large amount don't trust him.

That's where I disagree though, because the whole point of Superman is that he's more human than he is Kryptonian. He was raised from a baby by the Kents. Everybody on Earth isn't alien to him, because he sees Earth more as his home than Krypton.

In comics, Superman integrates into the world as best he can. In Snyder's version (MoS especially), he purposely separates himself from it. And that happens before he even knows of Krypton or who destroyed it etc.

Again, it comes back to Snyder focusing on some of the darkest aspects of the characters at the expense of any levity. While that's not always an issue in and of itself, it really had a negative affect in BvS because the whole point between Batman and Superman is the juxtaposition between them. As Lex even said in one of his speeches, they're "day versus night". Except with Snyder's version of them, it's dusk versus night because Superman is so burdened and mopey about just being Superman. There's not enough contrast between Superman and Batman.

In my opinion, that made it hard to really get behind either of them.

The Martha thing I don't think is as big an issue as much as it's been made fun of. The main issue I had with it was that some of the nightmares/dreams Bruce had that we had to watch were done purely so Snyder could have shots of his father saying Martha as he died, and the grave/plaque with Martha's name on it, just to really reinforce throughout the movie that Bruce's mother's name was Martha and those clips could be used when Superman said his mother's name to Batman. It was also just incredibly ham-fisted how Superman chose to say what he did "You're letting him... kill Martha. Find him! Save... Martha."

He doesn't say "Luthor has my mother!" or "Save my mother from Lex!" or anything like that. He gives the worst possible exclamation as what could be his last words, giving Batman no idea whatsoever who "him" or "Martha" are. Again, like the dreams Bruce had, it was done in the worst way possible just to make that Martha/Martha connection.

RayCun

the silly thing is, if Superman had said "Save my mother" it would have worked equally well

Tony EH

Penn wrote: »

That's where I disagree though, because the whole point of Superman is that he's more human than he is Kryptonian. He was raised from a baby by the Kents. Everybody on Earth isn't alien to him, because he sees Earth more as his home than Krypton.

That's where the comics and the movies differ then I guess. Even the Christopher Reeve movies, where he says he wants to relinquish his powers and "become one of them"..."be just like them" shows that there is a clear separation between Superman and human beings.

The films have always strove to place him apart from the humanity he chooses to defend, while showing him trying to integrate into and understand it.

Snyder's version just goes a little further.

Drumpot

RayCun wrote: »

the silly thing is, if Superman had said "Save my mother" it would have worked equally well

I don’t think it would of , it surprised Batman enough for him to ask what he meant.

I took it to mean that when Lois explained it was his mother’s name he realized there is a very human element and redeeming quality to superman that Batman couldn’t see through his anger. When he had superman at his mercy all MOS cares about was saving his mother, not himself. Batman can save Superman’s mother , not his own and there’s a certain kind of redemption he might get cause he was unable to save his own! I thought that was a good story ark that saved the dark knight from his demons.

Tony EH

Drumpot wrote: »

I took it to mean that when Lois explained it was his mother’s name he realized there is a very human element and redeeming quality to superman that Batman couldn’t see through his anger.

Exactly. It humanised the alien and shook Bruce out of his pit.

RayCun

Drumpot wrote: »

I don’t think it would of , it surprised Batman enough for him to ask what he meant.

I took it to mean that when Lois explained it was his mother’s name he realized there is a very human element and redeeming quality to superman that Batman couldn’t see through his anger. When he had superman at his mercy all MOS cares about was saving his mother, not himself. Batman can save Superman’s mother , not his own and there’s a certain kind of redemption he might get cause he was unable to save his own! I thought that was a good story ark that saved the dark knight from his demons.

But he's a space alien, the only survivor from Krypton. How can he have a mother?

All that's needed is space for Batman to go, "Wait ... what?", then Lois can explain that his mother is human.

Actually, "save my mother" works better than "save Martha". Martha could be Superman's pet Kryptonian goldfish for all Batman knows.

Drumpot

RayCun wrote: »

But he's a space alien, the only survivor from Krypton. How can he have a mother?

All that's needed is space for Batman to go, "Wait ... what?", then Lois can explain that his mother is human.

Actually, "save my mother" works better than "save Martha". Martha could be Superman's pet Kryptonian goldfish for all Batman knows.

No I don’t agree at all. Martha was what jolted Batman. Mother is a generic term that might not of resonated enough to halt Batman. Superman is an alien so for all Batman knows mother could of meant a green wobbly female alien that spawns human like creatures. Everybody has a mother but Martha was specific , highly personal and very meaningful to Batman. The name Martha is unique to both characters and what ultimately unites them.

RayCun

Drumpot wrote: »

No I don’t agree at all. Martha was what jolted Batman. Mother is a generic term that might not of resonated enough to halt Batman. Superman is an alien so for all Batman knows mother could of meant a green wobbly female alien that spawns human like creatures. Everybody has a mother but Martha was specific , highly personal and very meaningful to Batman. The name Martha is unique to both characters and what ultimately unites them.

The preceding Superman film made it clear to people on Earth that Kryptonians were basically human. If Snyder wanted to hammer it home (the idea :eek:) he could have Batman's research on Kryptonians underlining the fact that Superman is the last of his kind, all his people are dead.

Sure, you could argue that "Mother" is still open to different interpretations, but so is "Martha". For the scene, all that's needed is something that makes Batman stop and think for a second.

Penn

I think it would have worked better had Lois entered a few seconds earlier and she was the one who said "Martha". Maybe if she entered, saw Batman standing over Superman's body and she started pleading for his life, Clark says Lex Luthor has his mother and Lois is the one who says Martha. That would have had the double effect of not only the Martha connection, but also seeing Clark as human because he could see the love between him and Lois.

It just made no sense the way Clark said it (and if Batman did then stab Clark, he would have had no idea who "Him" or "Martha" were), and was completely and poorly shoehorned in. It wasn't the "Hey both our moms are called Martha, let's be friends" that bothered me as so many people make fun of, just how really poorly executed it was, coupled with the numerous dream sequences just so they could come back visually as flashes when Bruce realises the connection.

Tony EH

RayCun wrote: »

The preceding Superman film made it clear to people on Earth that Kryptonians were basically human.

The people of Earth don't even trust other humans that share the planet with them.

Why would they trust aliens, most of which have wrecked the place since they got there? And with powers that are immeasurably superior to a standard human being.

Tony EH

RayCun wrote: »

But he's a space alien, the only survivor from Krypton. How can he have a mother?

That's the point.

It's that very revelation that makes Bruce go "wait...what?"

It's the Oh my god, what have I done moment.

RayCun

Tony EH wrote: »

That's the point.

It's that very revelation that makes Bruce go "wait...what?"

It's the Oh my god, what have I done moment.

And my point is, you get that if Superman says "save my mother", even more than when he says "save Martha"

Tony EH

RayCun wrote: »

And my point is, you get that if Superman says "save my mother", even more than when he says "save Martha"

But then you miss the connection between the characters that "Martha" provides. It's a touch hamfisted, but it's an easy way to draw a parallel between the two main heroes.

Either way the scene works. I've never understood the meltdowns people have about it.

IncognitoMan

It has to be Martha because it's meant to bring Bruce back to crime alley.

The moment he's been suffering with ptsd from for his whole life.

The moment he has likely replayed millions of times in his own head.

The last thing Bruce hears his father say is to call out for Martha. Superman in this same position does the same thing.

It brings us full circle, but when it brings him back this time he sees that's he has now become what he has been fighting his entire life against.

He's the villain.

That's the journey of Batman in BvS, from blinded by fear and rage to restoring his humanity through Superman. Compounded by Superman's sacrifice after. He talks about it in JL. Talks about how Superman reminded him of what it means to be human.

I wonder did Snyder have much more about this in his original cut.

Anyway it has to be Martha. Having him call mother doesn't tie it together nearly as well. Batman of course knows the Alien has an Alien mother why would that ever stop him when he had already gone so far? It had to be something he could empathise with, something personal to pull him back.

Penn

IncognitoMan wrote: »

It has to be Martha because it's meant to bring Bruce back to crime alley.

The moment he's been suffering with ptsd from for his whole life.

The moment he has likely replayed millions of times in his own head.

The last thing Bruce hears his father say is to call out for Martha. Superman in this same position does the same thing.

It brings us full circle, but when it brings him back this time he sees that's he has now become what he has been fighting his entire life against.

He's the villain.

That's the journey of Batman in BvS, from blinded by fear and rage to restoring his humanity through Superman. Compounded by Superman's sacrifice after. He talks about it in JL. Talks about how Superman reminded him of what it means to be human.

I wonder did Snyder have much more about this in his original cut.

Anyway it has to be Martha. Having him call mother doesn't tie it together nearly as well. Batman of course knows the Alien has an Alien mother why would that ever stop him when he had already gone so far? It had to be something he could empathise with, something personal to pull him back.

I agree. It's far more powerful to Bruce to hear Martha and is going to have the greatest effect on snapping him out of the way he was acting.

But it makes zero sense that Superman would say Martha in that moment. The only way it would have made sense was if we were shown Superman researching Bruce Wayne (as he knows he's Batman), and seeing that his mother's name was Martha, though that would make Superman come across as incredibly manipulative in the Martha scene.

The way it was portrayed in the film made it seem like Batman would have killed Superman if not for the incredible coincidence both their mothers names were Martha and if not for Superman choosing the dumbest, clunkiest and least informative way to use his last words to tell Batman Lex had his mother hostage.

RayCun

"The last thing Bruce hears his father say is to call out for Martha. Superman in this same position does the same thing."

You accomplish the same thing by having Bruce say "Mother" in the flashback. The parallel would be Bruce's desire to save his mother and Superman's desire to save his.

But this is becoming a proxy for whether people think it's a good movie or not.

IncognitoMan

I don't think there's a way you could have done it and people not had problems with it.

Had it been mother - "superman has two mothers, how did Batman know he meant his earth mum". Or "How does Superman know for sure that Batman knows he's Clarke Kent" Or something along those lines.

Given the two choices, once they had decided that the way they were going to snap Batman out of his rage by making him see Superman as a human it had to be Martha for the full impact. It had to be something deeply personal to Batman.

Perhaps they could have worked it so Lois called her Martha but that seems clunky as well.

I think it's better as a moment between Batman and Superman and Superman's potential final words are the same final words he heard his father say all those years ago.

To bring him right back to the crime alley situation and see what he's become.

"Mother" just doesn't have the same effect.

As for Superman calling his mother just Martha. Probably would have been better if he said "save Martha" first but couldn't get the last name out because of Batman's foot on his throat. Then when this throws Batman and he lifts his foot Superman should say "save Martha Kent. Lex has Martha Kent."

That way it's covered by Superman just trying to give the full name so there was no confusion with Batman about who he was talking about. Because Superman can't be sure with his dying breath that Batman would just know who his mother was.

Drumpot

IncognitoMan wrote: »

I don't think there's a way you could have done it and people not had problems with it.

Had it been mother - "superman has two mothers, how did Batman know he meant his earth mum". Or "How does Superman know for sure that Batman knows he's Clarke Kent" Or something along those lines.

Given the two choices, once they had decided that the way they were going to snap Batman out of his rage by making him see Superman as a human it had to be Martha for the full impact. It had to be something deeply personal to Batman.

Perhaps they could have worked it so Lois called her Martha but that seems clunky as well.

I think it's better as a moment between Batman and Superman and Superman's potential final words are the same final words he heard his father say all those years ago.

To bring him right back to the crime alley situation and see what he's become.

"Mother" just doesn't have the same effect.

As for Superman calling his mother just Martha. Probably would have been better if he said "save Martha" first but couldn't get the last name out because of Batman's foot on his throat. Then when this throws Batman and he lifts his foot Superman should say "save Martha Kent. Lex has Martha Kent."

That way it's covered by Superman just trying to give the full name so there was no confusion with Batman about who he was talking about. Because Superman can't be sure with his dying breath that Batman would just know who his mother was.

When superman first arrives to fight Batman and he’s trying to reason with Bruce, remember he’s not at all worried Bruce will be able to fight him. He thinks he’s going there to either reason with or kill Bruce. Could he of communicated it better? Absolutely but there’s plenty incidents in movies were there were easier or alternative methods of handling a certain story but for dramatic effect a less linear path was taken.

Superman at the very least was disorientated after all that kryponite had been thrust at him. I will never agree with the sentiments that “mother” is the same, te reasons have been highlited why by me and others. I have noticed that when we don’t like a movie we can find things more annoying that aren’t necessarily awful but they are interpreted worse then they need to be.

Mark Hamill

IncognitoMan wrote: »

I don't think there's a way you could have done it and people not had problems with it.

There should have been a little bit of dialogue during the fight. Superman should have tried to get Batman to stop and say that he is only fighting for his mother. Batman could then have gone into a panicked rage at the assumption there was another alien on earth (because of his paranoia) and that give him the upper hand. Then have him roaring at a downed Superman, pinned by the Kryptonite, demanding to know where his "alien" mother was so that he can kill her too. Then you have Superman say "no, we have to help her, help my mom". When he sees that Batman is about to stab him then he can "please save her, Martha Kent, Luthor has her, save Martha!".

This way it's a bit more natural, Superman is the whole time trying to get it across to Batman that he is only there because his mom is on danger and it's only when he looses and believes he will be killed does he throw out her full name because he at least wants Batman to have as much information as possible when he goes after her after killing Superman. I know my dialogue above is bad but Supermans "You're letting him kill Martha" line from the movie is absolute garbage, they could have had the whole fight filmed the same way with the dialogue much more satisfying if some with a little bit of storytelling and writing skill worked on it.

Bacchus

The White Wolf wrote: »

If that was the case then he could do that in 90 minutes without going on about jars of piss and cover ups against Suoerman that go no where. BvS UE clocked in at what, 3 hours? He obviously fancies himself as an auteur and at least tries to add some weight to his films.

Are you saying the jars of piss, cover ups (which were so convoluted) and plot strands that went nowhere... doesn't constitute a convoluted mess? I could go on... the weird scene with Luthor shoving sweets in the politician man's face... the whole Batman branding thing in order to enrage Superman... hinging the royal rumble fight on the assumption that Superman couldn't just find Martha in the time window between Luthor's check-ins (she was in the same city... Batman found almost instantly)... Zod + Luthor = Doomsday... Wonder Woman inserted into the story via her attempt to recover a photo from Luthor's datacenter (which happened to be right next to the kitchen... also she had no plan to get it only for Bruce getting it first)... Snyder is visuals over content every day of the week. There's not "weight" to his films, there's layers of random plots he needs to get to the cool visual he wants to show off.

I think it's telling that Watchmen is far tighter on the plot that any of his DCEU stuff, as he HAD to follow the comic relatively closely. With the DCEU he had free reign to choose the direction of the movies and they're a mess... a pretty mess though.

pixelburp

Yeah, the 'Martha' moment was more of a culmination of some really knotted, messy & often lazy storytelling that ultimately had a very simple outcome: get Superman & Batman to fight each other.

It's really not that hard & didn't require this tortuous, half-baked thriller element to make it work. Avengers Assemble & Age of Ultron both had no problems simply saying "mind control" and letting the characters scrap. Civil War is probably more comparable in that it kept the reasons relatively grounded, but the reason for Stark v. Rogers came down to the two basically fighting over Bucky. BvS kinda tried for that, but that resulted in making Batman a horrendous psycho, and questionable rationale with all that "if there's a 1% chance it must be a certainty" garbage.

BvS didn't need to be so convoluted, it really didn't, but we got this gordian knot, and another example of modern-day scriptwriting that says if the audience is confused and a bit lost, you're being 'deep' and meaningful.

The White Wolf

Bacchus wrote: »

Are you saying the jars of piss, cover ups (which were so convoluted) and plot strands that went nowhere... doesn't constitute a convoluted mess? I could go on... the weird scene with Luthor shoving sweets in the politician man's face... the whole Batman branding thing in order to enrage Superman... hinging the royal rumble fight on the assumption that Superman couldn't just find Martha in the time window between Luthor's check-ins (she was in the same city... Batman found almost instantly)... Zod + Luthor = Doomsday... Wonder Woman inserted into the story via her attempt to recover a photo from Luthor's datacenter (which happened to be right next to the kitchen... also she had no plan to get it only for Bruce getting it first)... Snyder is visuals over content every day of the week. There's not "weight" to his films, there's layers of random plots he needs to get to the cool visual he wants to show off.

I think it's telling that Watchmen is far tighter on the plot that any of his DCEU stuff, as he HAD to follow the comic relatively closely. With the DCEU he had free reign to choose the direction of the movies and they're a mess... a pretty mess though.

No I am saying it is a convoluted mess. My post was a response to the suggestion that Snyder being all about the cool moments and visuals. If he was just about that then we wouldn't have brought Chris Terrio on board.

Bacchus

The White Wolf wrote: »

No I am saying it is a convoluted mess. My post was a response to the suggestion that Snyder being all about the cool moments and visuals. If he was just about that then we wouldn't have brought Chris Terrio on board.

Sorry, I got mixed up in my last post. We both agree... it's a convoluted mess

I do think he's all about the moments, and visuals, and been cool though. Maybe he does try to put together a thoughtful or intelligent story but it's really not his strength and he patches it all up with those moments and visuals, forgetting that he has to tell a story that makes sense to the audience.

Slydice

Looks like some fans who want to see Zack Snyders cut arranged for a plane to fly a banner above San Diego Comic Con:
https://twitter.com/getFANDOM/status/1152308765430910976

I think it says "WB #RELEASETHESYNDERCUTOF JUSTICE LEAGUE"

dublinman1990

Here is another ad for the campaign. Half of the money raised from it is going to the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention.

CastorTroy

People are confusing. They were happy when Snyder left, some not even caring about the reason. And now people want his version over Joss Whedon's?

Were there any DC movies at SDCC?

Drumpot

CastorTroy wrote: »

People are confusing. They were happy when Snyder left, some not even caring about the reason. And now people want his version over Joss Whedon's?

Were there any DC movies at SDCC?

There appears to be two different factions. Those who liked what Snyder was trying in MOS and BvS and those who didn’t. The loudest voice and sales figures suggested people wanted DC to be exactly like Marvel so they panicked and tried to marvel up JL which was a steaming pile of sh*te.

Those of us who enjoyed Snyder’s movies want to see what he was trying. Could end up being the opposite of Rogue one where the drastic changes made that movie better (or at least led to a great movie)! Not sure how much WB has to lose by releasing his cut...