Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Capt'n Midnight · 15-10-2018 11:16pm

nc6000 wrote: »

First mention I've seen of The Falklands. Are they currently in the EU?

The UK Overseas Territories, including the Falkland Islands will cease to be covered by the OAD once the UK has left the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/europeaid/countries/falkland-islands_en

Under the 11th EDF, Falkland Islands has been granted an indicative amount of €5.9 million for the period 2014-2020.Under the 11th EDF, Falkland Islands has been granted an indicative amount of €5.9 million for the period 2014-2020.

There would also be an impact on government finances with an annual loss of revenue of up to 16%,

Rhineshark · 15-10-2018 11:17pm

Firblog wrote: »

So how come it is more ridiculous than expecting the UK/NI to accept the same deal to be foisted on them?

Look at a map. That large section of blue is what makes it a different prospect. The sea is far more practical than a land border crossing people's farms, cutting through towns and occassionally businesses and houses. There is already more of a de facto sea border than there is a land border, given the all-island agricultural unit requiring checks at entrance to GB.

And far less people actively suffer from a sea border. Yes, it is a psychological issue in particular for the Unionists. The border towns will go back to dying out with a land border. But they are far more likely to be nationalist, hence the utter lack of the DUP giving a damn. It will also destroy NI's agriculture - and will hit ours fairly hard too.

So, yeah, there is a pretty big difference between the sea border and a land border south of Donegal, Leitrim etc. Besides, exactly how far should we press ourselves into the ground to help the UK through its self inflicted mess? Should we offer to rejoin to help out too?

charlie14 · 15-10-2018 11:25pm

Firblog wrote: »

We most probably would ok, but won't UK have to check everything coming from NI if they accepted the offer on the table?

What I'm looking at is putting the shoe on the other foot to see how we would like the fit.. maybe have an idea then why the solution being offered to the UK / NI is not being grabbed by both hands by them as everyone seems to think its such a great offer by the EU

Well it was Britain that voted to leave the EU, not the EU that voted to leave Britain so I can see why the EU would wish to get the best deal possible for the remaining members.

Call me Al · 15-10-2018 11:32pm

Firblog wrote: »

So how come it is more ridiculous than expecting the UK/NI to accept the same deal to be foisted on them?

Because they've signed up to the Good Friday agreement.
And this whole project has been undertaken by them, without any regard to the other signatories who realise any change to the status quo will have catastrophic consequences for the peace process.
It would appear that eaten bread is soon forgotten.

Firblog · 15-10-2018 11:34pm

Rhineshark wrote: »

Look at a map. That large section of blue is what makes it a different prospect. The sea is far more practical than a land border crossing people's farms, cutting through towns and occassionally businesses and houses. There is already more of a de facto sea border than there is a land border, given the all-island agricultural unit requiring checks at entrance to GB.

And far less people actively suffer from a sea border. Yes, it is a psychological issue in particular for the Unionists. The border towns will go back to dying out with a land border. But they are far more likely to be nationalist, hence the utter lack of the DUP giving a damn. It will also destroy NI's agriculture - and will hit ours fairly hard too.

So, yeah, there is a pretty big difference between the sea border and a land border south of Donegal, Leitrim etc. Besides, exactly how far should we press ourselves into the ground to help the UK through its self inflicted mess? Should we offer to rejoin to help out too?

Land border or sea border is not the issue, the issue is where the border exists surely? The UK/NI do not want it in the sea between the two, we don't want it on the land between where the six counties meets the 26; so what i've suggested gets over that... However if you're hung up on a sea border vs land border, lets just extend the idea to the whole of ireland, UK says will give free trade area to whole of Republic.. move the border to the sea between France and Ireland if that will make you happier.

BTW this is just an exercise in looking at what is being offered from a different point of view, and how we'd feel if we were being offered a solution similar to what is being offered to UK/NI, would we be be as happy with it as we think they should be?

FrancieBrady · 15-10-2018 11:40pm

Firblog wrote: »

Land border or sea border is not the issue, the issue is where the border exists surely? The UK/NI do not want it in the sea between the two, we don't want it on the land between where the six counties meets the 26; so what i've suggested gets over that... However if you're hung up on a sea border vs land border, lets just extend the idea to the whole of ireland, UK says will give free trade area to whole of Republic.. move the border to the sea between France and Ireland if that will make you happier.

BTW this is just an exercise in looking at what is being offered from a different point of view, and how we'd feel if we were being offered a solution similar to what is being offered to UK/NI, would we be be as happy with it as we think they should be?

Is it not an excercise in saving the Unionist/UK bacon. Because that is what it sounds like.

charlie14 · 15-10-2018 11:41pm

Firblog wrote: »

Land border or sea border is not the issue, the issue is where the border exists surely? The UK/NI do not want it in the sea between the two, we don't want it on the land between where the six counties meets the 26; so what i've suggested gets over that... However if you're hung up on a sea border vs land border, lets just extend the idea to the whole of ireland, UK says will give free trade area to whole of Republic.. move the border to the sea between France and Ireland if that will make you happier.

BTW this is just an exercise in looking at what is being offered from a different point of view, and how we'd feel if we were being offered a solution similar to what is being offered to UK/NI, would we be be as happy with it as we think they should be?

Sounds as if rather than move a border you are looking to move time back prior to 1st. January 1973

Call me Al · 15-10-2018 11:43pm

Firblog wrote: »

Land border or sea border is not the issue, the issue is where the border exists surely? The UK/NI do not want it in the sea between the two, we don't want it on the land between where the six counties meets the 26; so what i've suggested gets over that... However if you're hung up on a sea border vs land border, lets just extend the idea to the whole of ireland, UK says will give free trade area to whole of Republic.. move the border to the sea between France and Ireland if that will make you happier.

BTW this is just an exercise in looking at what is being offered from a different point of view, and how we'd feel if we were being offered a solution similar to what is being offered to UK/NI, would we be be as happy with it as we think they should be?

Well of course they're not happy with it. I think most of us realise that. It's not what they expected to be offered.
But they should realise that they're not going to be offered much better. And I think, if numbers permitted, that TM would have jumped at the current offer by now.
Your exercise of essentially removing ROI from the EU single market is, if i may be frank, quite nuts.

Firblog · 15-10-2018 11:43pm

charlie14 wrote: »

Well it was Britain that voted to leave the EU, not the EU that voted to leave Britain so I can see why the EU would wish to get the best deal possible for the remaining members.

Surely using 'well it was Britain that's leaving' as an argument for trying to shaft UK is the most ridiculous position ever. Lets not forget a no deal Brexit will be dam near catastrophic for us. Then again it will be no surprise if the EU blithely sacrifices our economy for what they see as the greater EU good..

Firblog · 15-10-2018 11:46pm

Call me Al wrote: »

now.
Your exercise of essentially removing ROI from the EU single market is, if i may be frank, quite nuts.

And the EU's attempt at removing NI from the UK & NI is a object lesson sanity and common sense? Politically what is the difference?

Nate--IRL-- · 15-10-2018 11:46pm

Firblog wrote: »

Surely using 'well it was Britain that's leaving' as an argument for trying to shaft UK is the most ridiculous position ever. Lets not forget a no deal Brexit will be dam near catastrophic for us. Then again it will be no surprise if the EU blithely sacrifices our economy for what they see as the greater EU good..

It is the UK that will be jumping off a cliff without a thought that they drag us along as collateral damage.

Nate

Anthracite · 15-10-2018 11:47pm

Firblog wrote: »

So how come it is more ridiculous than expecting the UK/NI to accept the same deal to be foisted on them?

I'm no ra-ra republican, but the suggestion that it is 'ridiculous' is rather dependent on you pretending that NI is basically the same, historically, geographically and culturally, as Kent.

Once you admit that it's not, the ridiculousness tends to evaporate.

Firblog · 15-10-2018 11:48pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Is it not an excercise in saving the Unionist/UK bacon. Because that is what it sounds like.

How could it be? I'm not in a position of power in the UK or EU; Not using boards as a sounding board before launching a devious 11th hour plan to split ROI from rest of EU

Bigus · 15-10-2018 11:49pm

Firblog wrote: »

Was listening to Ivan on newstalk this eve on about Brexit, everyone was saying how EU was making concessions allowing such a good deal to NI, to stay in EU/Single Market and wasn't it terrible how such concessions were being thrown back in their face and how could DUP be as stupid as to continue blocking it etc.

Now I always like to look at things inversely when trying to figure out why people aren't agreeing with some seemingly great offer that is being made, and came up with this..

What if UK said, here's a way to get over the whole soft border thing.. We will allow Donegal, Leitrim, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth have a free trade area with UK, that way there'll be no hard border between NI and ROI, this will be the new backstop, and we'll allow it to go on forever.. Now of course there will have to be checks between these counties and the rest of the Republic but sure won't it be the best of both worlds for those counties (much like it's being claimed for NI in the present offer from EU) Do you think EU and Leo, FF, SF would think that was a good deal?

So your saying (I'm quoting Andrew maxwell )move the British border in Ireland even more into irish Territory ?

FrancieBrady · 15-10-2018 11:49pm

Firblog wrote: »

And the EU's attempt at removing NI from the UK & NI is a object lesson sanity and common sense? Politically what is the difference?

They aren't. A border is required and they are trying to mitigate the damage that requirement might cause.

Firblog · 15-10-2018 11:50pm

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

It is the UK that will be jumping off a cliff without a thought that they drag us along as collateral damage.

Nate

No Nate, they may have actually believed that the negotiations couldn't have gone so badly

Firblog · 15-10-2018 11:52pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They aren't. A border is required and they are trying to mitigate the damage that requirement might cause.

They aren't what? - Who's They?

FrancieBrady · 15-10-2018 11:53pm

Firblog wrote: »

They aren't what? - Who's They?

The EU...are not trying to separate NI from the Uk.

charlie14 · 15-10-2018 11:53pm

Firblog wrote: »

Surely using 'well it was Britain that's leaving' as an argument for trying to shaft UK is the most ridiculous position ever. Lets not forget a no deal Brexit will be dam near catastrophic for us. Then again it will be no surprise if the EU blithely sacrifices our economy for what they see as the greater EU good..

I don`t see that on border issue that the EU are "trying to shaft UK". More a case of them trying to prevent a hard border on this island that would be, as you, say damn near catastrophic not just for the RoI but also NI.
Then again, it would not surprise me greatly if we come under pressure from the EU to accept a time-limited backstop "for the greater good"

Nate--IRL-- · 15-10-2018 11:54pm

Firblog wrote: »

No Nate, they may have actually believed that the negotiations couldn't have gone so badly

I agree, a UK cabinet sized illustration of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Nate

Firblog · 15-10-2018 11:57pm

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

I agree, a UK cabinet sized illustration of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Nate

Good man, had to google that

Call me Al · 16-10-2018 12:00am

Firblog wrote: »

And the EU's attempt at removing NI from the UK & NI is a object lesson sanity and common sense? Politically what is the difference?

How do you mean whats the difference? They're not being wrenched apart unless they want to do so.
It's the EU negotiating in the interests of it's member states. And upholding the Good Friday Agreement. That's right.. . Politically acting for us.
Ultimately i don't think anyone in Brussels could care less about the internal machinations of the UK. Those in government buildings in Dublin do when it comes to the 6 counties and direct consequences for us..

Firblog · 16-10-2018 12:02am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The EU...are not trying to separate NI from the Uk.

Having the border in the sea between uk and ireland, would have the same effect on the polictical / economic union between UK and NI as having the border in the sea between France and Ireland would have on our political / economic union between us and the EU surely? and judging by the reaction to the suggestion is receiving here it's not something that we'd be too happy with but think those in the north and UK should suck up

Call me Al · 16-10-2018 12:04am

Firblog wrote: »

Having the border in the sea between uk and ireland, would have the same effect on the polictical / economic union between UK and NI as having the border in the sea between France and Ireland would have on our political / economic union between us and the EU surely? and judging by the reaction to the suggestion is receiving here it's not something that we'd be too happy with but think those in the north and UK should suck up

But most in the North don't want to Brexit

Anthracite · 16-10-2018 12:06am

Firblog wrote: »

No Nate, they may have actually believed that the negotiations couldn't have gone so badly

They (presumuming you mean the English and Welsh electorate who actually voted for this clownfest) never gave a second's thought to the border in Ireland.

Firblog · 16-10-2018 12:09am

Call me Al wrote: »

But most in the North don't want to Brexit

Most didn't want it when the vote took place is true, but wouldn't be so sure that those unionist who voted to remain in the EU would still hold that view if they were going to be edged out of the union with the UK to stay in the EU.

FrancieBrady · 16-10-2018 12:10am

Firblog wrote: »

Having the border in the sea between uk and ireland, would have the same effect on the polictical / economic union between UK and NI as having the border in the sea between France and Ireland would have on our political / economic union between us and the EU surely? and judging by the reaction to the suggestion is receiving here it's not something that we'd be too happy with but think those in the north and UK should suck up

There is already border requirements enacted in the Irish Sea. The 'relationship' only changes if they want it to.

If the EU wanted to break them up they would have walked away long ago in December for example, saying 'No Deal' because that will manifestly attempt to break them up and possibly the entire UK.

Imreoir2 · 16-10-2018 12:10am

VinLieger wrote: »

Nothing separating NI and the UK....... except for abortion and same sex marriage

And automatic rights to citizenship of another country, and the EU.

Firblog · 16-10-2018 12:10am

Anthracite wrote: »

They (presumuming you mean the English and Welsh electorate who actually voted for this clownfest) never gave a second's thought to the border in Ireland.

Ah yes and the Irish border was at the forefront of the minds of the electorate in Scotland when they went to the polls

charlie14 · 16-10-2018 12:25am

Firblog wrote: »

Ah yes and the Irish border was at the forefront of the minds of the electorate in Scotland when they went to the polls

Very few of them I imagine. But then unlike NI they do not share a border with any country other than a nominal one with fellow members of the UK.

Something that from the NI Brexit referendum vote looked to be a major consideration by voters there when they considered the effects of leaving.

16-10-2018 1:27am

Before the vote took place, I was called selfish by an English guy for even mentioning the border and the shltshow it would cause if Brexit passed. He just didn't care.

It's not just ignorance of it being an issue. It's just an alien thing where the North feels as far away as the Falklands. Even my Remainer English friends don't give a toss about it. As I've always said, Unionists are a nice guy chasing a girl who doesn't even know he exists.

Peregrinus · 16-10-2018 2:05am

Firblog wrote: »

Most didn't want it when the vote took place is true, but wouldn't be so sure that those unionist who voted to remain in the EU would still hold that view if they were going to be edged out of the union with the UK to stay in the EU.

But they're not being "edged out of the Union with the UK to stay in the EU".

The backstop does not take NI out of the Union. With the backstop in place, NI will still be part of the UK. Everyone born in NI will still be a British Citizen from birth. They will still elect MPs to Westminster and not TDs to Leinster House, and Westminster, not Leinster House, will have the power to make laws that apply in NI.

This "EU is trying to annex NI!" is a ridiculous overdramatisation put about by hardline Brexiters (who as a class are not noted for their grasp of constitutional and political realities) and by right-wing Unionists who hate the GFA and hope to undermine it.

prinzeugen · 16-10-2018 2:36am

A deal has been done regarding Gibraltar and Akrotiri so why can't a similar deal be done for NI??

The EU does not have an issue with Gibraltar dealing directly with Spain or Akrotiri dealing directly with Cyprus so what is the problem with an Irish/UK deal on the border?

Yes they are overseas territories but they are no different from NI in that there are huge amounts of goods and people crossing the borders daily.

People forget that the UK has 3 land borders with the EU not just the one.

Its almost as if the EU want a no deal exit.

Peregrinus · 16-10-2018 2:45am

prinzeugen wrote: »

A deal has been done regarding Gibraltar and Akrotiri so why can't a similar deal be done for NI??

The EU does not have an issue with Gibraltar dealing directly with Spain or Akrotiri dealing directly with Cyprus so what is the problem with an Irish/UK deal on the border?

Yes they are overseas territories but they are no different from NI in that there are huge amounts of goods and people crossing the borders daily.

People forget that the UK has 3 land borders with the EU not just the one.

Its almost as if the EU want a no deal exit.

It's almost as if Brexiters don't understand that the UK has guaranteed no hard border in Ireland, and the EU takes this guarantee seriously and expects it to be delivered. Any deal must give effect to this guarantee.

The Gibraltar deal doesn't mean no hard border in Gibraltar. The Akrotiri deal doesn't mean no hard border in Cyprus. So neither of those deals are fit for purpose in Ireland. (Plus the Akrotiri deal would be fundamentally uncacceptable to Ulster Unionists - it's much, much worse, from their point of view, than the backstop.)

And, for the record, the UK has one land border with the EU. Neither Gibraltar nor Akrotiri are part of the UK.

PS: Worth pointing out that the protocols on Gibraltar and Akrotiri are both annexes to the Withdrawal Agreement. And, of course, there is no Withdrawal Agreement unless the UK accepts a backstop on the terms agreed last December, and again last March. So the statement that "a deal has been done regarding Gibraltar and Akrotiri" has to be qualified; a deal has been done conditionally on a deal being done on the backstop.

LuckyLloyd · 16-10-2018 4:45am

Firblog wrote: »

Surely using 'well it was Britain that's leaving' as an argument for trying to shaft UK is the most ridiculous position ever. Lets not forget a no deal Brexit will be dam near catastrophic for us. Then again it will be no surprise if the EU blithely sacrifices our economy for what they see as the greater EU good..

We are the EU

listermint · 16-10-2018 5:16am

Ah a new poster who sits at the alter of the EU are punishing the UK. And the UK should suffer no ill effects of taking the most idiotically economic and political choice any country has ever taken...

So let me summise.

Ireland should leave the EU to assist Britians problem.

The EU should stop being mean to Britian and give them everything they want to be successful because the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.

I think that's quite the grasp of it, without the eating around the edges multiple posts on offer.

Peregrinus · 16-10-2018 6:01am

Firblog wrote: »

Most didn't want it when the vote took place is true, but wouldn't be so sure that those unionist who voted to remain in the EU would still hold that view if they were going to be edged out of the union with the UK to stay in the EU.

Obviously what NI "Remain" voters voted for in 2016 was for the whole of the UK to remain in the European Union, not just just NI. And we can't assume that they would wish NI to remain in the EU without GB; any more than we can assume that they wouldn't. Either assumption is just conjecture.

Still, it's fair enough to assume that, if they agree that NI has to leave the EU with the rest of the UK, they would prefer a Brexit conducted in a way that takes account of, and seeks to avert, the very harms that they feared when they chose to vote "Remain". We know that Northern Ireland does not want a hard border with the Republic. We also know that NI does not want increased barriers to trade with GB. But the May government has gone out of its way, through unforced choices made after the referendum, to ensure that NI must suffer at least one of these evils, and quite possibly both.

It would be foolish to imagine that NI Remain voters - the majority, remember - haven't noticed this. And it would be more foolish to imagine that, if asked now to choose the lesser of two evils, they wouldn't regard that as the most hypocritical exercise in blame shifting by a Westminster government that has boxed them into this unpleasant corner because, fundamentally, it doesn't give a stuff about what they want, or about what is in their interests.

"Here's two ends of a stick. We already know you don't want either end. Knowing that, we've gone out of our way to make both ends needlessly sh!tty. Now, which one would you like? Bend over!"

Angry bird · 16-10-2018 6:32am

This Tory government have demonstrated repeatedly that they're not to be trusted. So wisely the deal last December included a backstop, which was re-affirmed in March.

When dealing with untrustworthy types, you seek guarantees, up front, of the binding sort. Then you get to talk about the cheese.

It is for the UK to decide what it wants, we all wish they'd decide and stop the internal in fighting and negotiating with themselves. The EU is playing the long game and if there's a no deal with this government, perhaps the next one would be more amenable to sign up, after first hand experience of what no deal means in reality.

The EU holds the cards, our interests do not lie with sorting out the UKs problems.

Zubeneschamali · 16-10-2018 6:37am

Firblog wrote: »

Surely using 'well it was Britain that's leaving' as an argument for trying to shaft UK is the most ridiculous position ever.

We are not trying to shaft the UK. Ireland was tipping along quite happily with the GFA in place, peace on the streets for 20 years.

The UK threatening to leave the EU is trying to shaft Ireland, and we (and the EU on our behalf) are saying well, OK, that's allowed in the treaties, but if you do it, you leave with nothing.

Do something to avoid shafting Ireland, and you get a FTA.

And the UK already signed up last December, in writing, to the backstop that they now say is unacceptable.

Calina · 16-10-2018 6:42am

Firblog wrote: »

charlie14 wrote: »

Well it was Britain that voted to leave the EU, not the EU that voted to leave Britain so I can see why the EU would wish to get the best deal possible for the remaining members.

Surely using 'well it was Britain that's leaving' as an argument for trying to shaft UK is the most ridiculous position ever. Lets not forget a no deal Brexit will be dam near catastrophic for us. Then again it will be no surprise if the EU blithely sacrifices our economy for what they see as the greater EU good..

The shafting that is going on is by the UK. They voted to leave the EU with scant consideration of the ramifications on any part of themselves. They have negotiated not on the basis of wanting to leave but on the basis of having all of the benefits but none of the obligations. That is not wanting to leave. That is being psychopathically selfish. The impact of their decision in their neighbours has not formed any part of their thinking either. The EU's position mitigates issues for NI. That they are even negotiating at all mitigates the impact on the UK which can afford a crash out not at all.

Against that UK government figures are already backtracking on agreements in principle. We are here now because the UK is demonstrating a lack of faith.

At no point has the UK thought about anyone else's considerations. England does not even care about the considerations of UK constituent nations like Scotland.

So your thought experiment is wasted. Every effort the EU makes to facilitate the UK has been spat back. We have been there, done the obliging, and now we have to look after our interests. If that means NI gets special treatment and benefits fine. But we are here not because of Ireland or Brussels.

We are here because of the UK. Their union is monumentally at risk because of Brexit. Brexit changes the perspectives for Scitland and NI. Wales less so although I have heard Welsh people bitterly blame the numbers of English people living in certain parts of Wales for tipping Wales in support of Brexit. Even so, the Brexit result was carried primarily in England. And the way Britain has negotiated has not taken the considerations of NI and Scotland into account. You may scream about the vote being an all UK one. But the negotiations have not been done on an all UK basis.

Captain Obvious · 16-10-2018 6:50am

It amazes me how ignorant even UK politicians are on this whole thing. I don't know if this has been posted before but here is an MP who thinks UK citizens are entitled to Irish passports

https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1051624600600289281

How can someone be expected to vote on a deal if they still don't know the basics of our current relationship with the EU? You'd swear we were just being sentimental about the border by the way they are going on.

Angry bird · 16-10-2018 6:52am

Calina wrote: »

The shafting that is going on is by the UK. They voted to leave the EU with scant consideration of the ramifications on any part of themselves. They have negotiated not on the basis of wanting to leave but on the basis of having all of the benefits but none of the obligations. That is not wanting to leave. That is being psychopathically selfish. The impact of their decision in their neighbours has not formed any part of their thinking either. The EU's position mitigates issues for NI. That they are even negotiating at all mitigates the impact on the UK which can afford a crash out not at all.

Against that UK government figures are already backtracking on agreements in principle. We are here now because the UK is demonstrating a lack of faith.

At no point has the UK thought about anyone else's considerations. England does not even care about the considerations of UK constituent nations like Scotland.

So your thought experiment is wasted. Every effort the EU makes to facilitate the UK has been spat back. We have been there, done the obliging, and now we have to look after our interests. If that means NI gets special treatment and benefits fine. But we are here not because of Ireland or Brussels.

We are here because of the UK. Their union is monumentally at risk because of Brexit. Brexit changes the perspectives for Scitland and NI. Wales less so although I have heard Welsh people bitterly blame the numbers of English people living in certain parts of Wales for tipping Wales in support of Brexit. Even so, the Brexit result was carried primarily in England. And the way Britain has negotiated has not taken the considerations of NI and Scotland into account. You may scream about the vote being an all UK one. But the negotiations have not been done on an all UK basis.

If they want to put their union at risk, who are we to stop them. In a scenario where Scotland leaves then a United Ireland becomes a greater possibility. England ignoring the interests of the other regions will have consequences.

judeboy101 · 16-10-2018 6:56am

During PMq , TM said her and EU "we both agree that the backstop must be temporary" . That sounds worrying

Infini · 16-10-2018 6:59am

judeboy101 wrote: »

During PMq , TM said her and EU "we both agree that the backstop must be temporary" . That sounds worrying

Temporary =/= Time limited. Its only to apply until something better can replace it. The refusal for a time limit is purely so the UK cannot kick the border problem down the road only to walk away later on. Its to make them honor their commitments not walk away because it doesnt suit them.

Calina · 16-10-2018 7:05am

judeboy101 wrote: »

During PMq , TM said her and EU "we both agree that the backstop must be temporary" . That sounds worrying

I suspect the backstop she referred to was UK wide membership of the customs union. Apparently the EU side still wants NI to have indefinite backstop and UK wide customs union membership is purely to give the UK time to find a solution. May cannot sell indefinite UK membership of the CU to the ERG. But the EU wants to be certain they cannot play fast and loose at the Irish border.

Basically, they have extra time to find a solution but at a price that suits sone of our needs and if they fail...well...

PS....customs union membership is not really enough. Single markst membership otoh.

LuckyLloyd · 16-10-2018 7:22am

Firblog is merely the latest in a long line of ‘why is this so difficult for the UK’ posters. I welcome such contributions, it keeps the thread sharp.

At the most basic level, you shouldn’t get the benefits of a club with non of the obligations or a better deal than that offered to the members. The Brexit contingent have never quite understood that.

Bigus · 16-10-2018 7:37am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Firblog is merely the latest in a long line of ‘why is this so difficult for the UK’ posters. I welcome such contributions, it keeps the thread sharp.

At the most basic level, you shouldn’t get the benefits of a club with non of the obligations or a better deal than that offered to the members. The Brexit contingent have never quite understood that.

But the club will be so inferior without my superior membership that all club rules go out the window for me alone because the club without me couldn't sustain itself and will fall to pieces, just you wait and see.

Bigus · 16-10-2018 7:47am

A good read in the guardian posted an hour ago to help their UK readers understand what's going on in Brussels
An article entitled
"Britain’s magical thinking won’t make the EU accept the impossible"

3 weeks before the 2016 referendum the German chancellor pointed out

"But Merkel also saw how important facts were not being aired in the campaign. She expressed a “personal hope” that Britain would stay in the EU and added that to leave would be to surrender influence, because the best deals were done on the inside. The UK, she warned, would not find it comfortable negotiating from “outside the room”. "

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/16/britain-eu-brussels-brexit

Akrasia · 16-10-2018 7:59am

The people who voted to leave because they think the EU restricted British Sovereignty have been slowly getting a rude awakening.

Their sovereignty consists of an entangled mesh of agreements they freely entered into on the basis that each of them conferred some benefit to them.

They now are facing the reality that pulling out of those agreements, freely entered into, also means losing those benefits.

And most ironically, the EU aren't even forcing them to stay or interfering in their internal politics in the slightest. The EU respects their sovereignty so much that we're sitting on the sidelines watching them implode allowing them all the options that are compatible with the rules of the EU and other international frameworks, including the right to remain or crash out without any deals.

flatty · 16-10-2018 8:57am

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Firblog wrote: »

Surely using 'well it was Britain that's leaving' as an argument for trying to shaft UK is the most ridiculous position ever.

We are not trying to shaft the UK. Ireland was tipping along quite happily with the GFA in place, peace on the streets for 20 years.

The UK threatening to leave the EU is trying to shaft Ireland, and we (and the EU on our behalf) are saying well, OK, that's allowed in the treaties, but if you do it, you leave with nothing.

Do something to avoid shafting Ireland, and you get a FTA.

And the UK already signed up last December, in writing, to the backstop that they now say is unacceptable.

I would really like to emphasise that it is teresa may who, unaided and unprompted by any pleb, decided on her red lines. It is teresa may who is trying to weasel out of her agreements, and who would happily, and from a position of clear headed understanding, unlike the normal pleb, run the risk of reigniting armed conflict in NI just because teresa may had a run in with the echr in the dim and distant past.

Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

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