Asti strike action

Bobtheman · 19-09-2020 9:38pm #1

So according to reports we are to be balloted. Have tunned out of Asti events last few years because of the members cowardice. And a lack of leadership from headquarters/SC. I was surprised to hear about a ballot. To me it came out of the blue.
I do believe the issues are important.
I will vote yes to strike action.
I see a ballot being carried 60-40.

amacca · 19-09-2020 10:21pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

So according to reports we are to be balloted. Have tunned out of Asti events last few years because of the members cowardice. And a lack of leadership from headquarters/SC. I was surprised to hear about a ballot. To me it came out of the blue.
I do believe the issues are important.
I will vote yes to strike action.
I see a ballot being carried 60-40.

I think there could be a lot of disquiet about some things

Poor planning/not much evidence of a lot of thought gone into the return from the Govt side or exploring options which could still work economically and be somewhat safer....although exactly what that might look like and what else would have to be reorganised to allow it to happen I'm not sure tbh

The way info on who is positive is being kept from teachers etc (I don't buy the need to know stuff)

Certain health guidelines not applying to classrooms but applying everywhere else

Lack of common message from Dept and HSE on students opting out of face coverings in a classroom (without a cert)

lack of forethought to give schools proper sanctions to enforce guidelines and stop issues being brushed under the carpet

......Having said all that schools, teachers and managements that Ive heard about have done their best despite mixed messages and what seems like bad planning coming fromGovt side so maybe they are less likely to vote for strike than I think

lulublue22 · 20-09-2020 12:00am

<snip deleted post>

The public has no sympathy for teachers regardless - any time teachers try to raise an issue eg class size the reaction is rabble rabble pay rabble rabble half days rabble rabble holidays - it always amazes me why the vast majority don’t train as teachers with how highly paid it is for no work.

acequion · 20-09-2020 12:03am

Yes we are to be balloted and personally I'm pleased about that and believe it will be carried. It doesn't mean we all automatically take to the picket lines, it doesn't mean we don't want to be back in school, but it does mean that we have SERIOUS concerns about being placed in a dangerous situation. Such as:

1.With the highest pupil teacher ratio in Europe, classrooms, even with the supposed metre between desks, are still overcrowded. Corridors, stairwells, yards are still overcrowded despite the very best efforts of everybody and kudos to the kids for their overall maturity. But crowds are crowds. And in every other indoor workplace or public place crowding has been managed for the safety of everybody. Why should those in schools, both pupils and staff, be treated differently?

2. Inadequate PPE and masks not even provided.

3. Inadequate ventilation. Just open the windows lads. Be grand!

4. The Govt insistence that even at level 5 schools will remain open. Seriously!!

5. Right now parts of Dublin are at in excess of 100 cases per 100.000 but schools are still expected to work on.

6. No provision for teachers in a high risk category. Just stick on your mask and get on with it!

Such issues urgently need addressing and as usual ASTI is the only teacher union not sleeping on the job.

rainbowtrout · 20-09-2020 12:58am

acequion wrote: »

Y

1.With the highest pupil teacher ratio in Europe, classrooms, even with the supposed metre between desks, are still overcrowded. Corridors, stairwells, yards are still overcrowded despite the very best efforts of everybody and kudos to the kids for their overall maturity. But crowds are crowds. And in every other indoor workplace or public place crowding has been managed for the safety of everybody. Why should those in schools, both pupils and staff, be treated differently?

I was in my local credit union two weeks ago just around the time we had started back and I had to wait outside the door because there were two people already in there, the max allowed. When I went in, I was chatting to the teller, while I was waiting for her to finish I was looking around and realised that the public space in there was roughly the same size as my lab, yet only two people were allowed in, but I can have 24 people in the same space for 40 minutes at a time.......

s1ippy · 20-09-2020 1:23am

I don't anticipate this thread will be used primarily for discussion on the ballot, based on the state of the other threads about teachers, because of the cohort of people who hate them.

I reckon this will pass by a large margin. I have only seen a smattering of teachers describing being satisfied with this situation, and even then, a number of those were likely to be the same crowd who come on here to shout abuse at them, impersonating them. Fairly pathetic but that's what you're dealing with.

This action is a huge statement. Teachers are obviously educated people, they are looking at the situation and seeing that their environment is completely unsafe. If ever there was a time to stand up and use their unions, it's now. The action taken as a result will undoubtedly reduce transmission and the outcome will be favourable for everyone and the health service to boot.

The fact that the current system in place has been allowed is staggering and suggestions to the contrary demonstrate a lack of understanding or wilful ignorance.

Smacruairi · 20-09-2020 1:26am

s1ippy wrote: »

I don't anticipate this thread will be used primarily for discussion on the ballot, based on the state of the other threads about teachers, because of the cohort of people who hate them.

I reckon this will pass by a large margin. I have only seen a smattering of teachers describing being satisfied with this situation, and even then, a number of those were likely to be the same crowd who come on here to shout abuse at them, impersonating them. Fairly pathetic but that's what you're dealing with.

This action is a huge statement. Teachers are obviously educated people, they are looking at the situation and seeing that their environment is completely unsafe. If ever there was a time to stand up and use their unions, it's now. The action taken as a result will undoubtedly reduce transmission and the outcome will be favourable for everyone and the health service to boot.

The fact that the current system in place has been allowed is staggering and suggestions to the contrary demonstrate a lack of understanding or wilful ignorance.

I'm torn on this one. Id rather a demonstration of something like walking out of the first period of the morning or something to highlight inadequacies and the whole app and close contact fiasco.

I'd also prefer they moved to restore pay equalities in light of the fact that we are donning the green Jersey. Just feels like we haven't set the table enough for a strike yet.

mickdw · 20-09-2020 1:28am

I have sympathy for teachers as government seem to have taken the get on with it approach to teachers while every other area of society seems to be overly regulated.
I dont know what the story is re ppe being provided but from the few school staff ive heard interviewed, funding sdems to be good so should stretch to ppe for staff at least.
Im all for raising issues with department but this is absolutely the worst time to consider striking.
Strike action should be ruled out day one here as there is just too much going down at the minute to add that into the mix.

The Belly · 20-09-2020 1:28am

Smacruairi wrote: »

I'm torn on this one. Id rather a demonstration of something like walking out of the first period of the morning or something to highlight inadequacies and the whole app and close contact fiasco.

I'd also prefer they moved to restore pay equalities in light of the fact that we are donning the green Jersey. Just feels like we haven't set the table enough for a strike yet.

When the country is in the state its in and in a government job with benefits it's not the time to strike.

Smacruairi · 20-09-2020 1:32am

The Belly wrote: »

When the country is in the state its in and in a government job with benefits it's not the time to strike.

Yeah I agree. Though I also think that the govt is a disgrace with its approach to all things educational at the moment. They clearly aren't listening to any advice or assistance from the sector, nor applying WHO protocols either.

So what do you do?

s1ippy · 20-09-2020 1:34am

Smacruairi wrote: »

I'm torn on this one. Id rather a demonstration of something like walking out of the first period of the morning or something to highlight inadequacies and the whole app and close contact fiasco.

I'd also prefer they moved to restore pay equalities in light of the fact that we are donning the green Jersey. Just feels like we haven't set the table enough for a strike yet.

Will the public sector pay increase not restore teachers' salaries too? I know there are about three tiers now, are they going to be equalised?

Maybe pay restoration could wait though. It's not my pocket being hit so I know it's easy for me to say but if I were still a teacher, I think my personal priority would probably be to get the school environments up to an adequate standard of safety and enable me to do my job. Again though, I'm not up to speed on the nuance of the pay situation anymore. I just think making it about that minimises the immediate risks posed.

Contact tracing issues are an absolute mess though. Definitely 100% keep the app and keep your phone on you at all times, don't let them try and use the excuses. Although I know they banned pokémon go from working in schools so it's not outside the realms of possibility that they do that.

The Belly · 20-09-2020 1:35am

Smacruairi wrote: »

Yeah I agree. Though I also think that the govt is a disgrace with its approach to all things educational at the moment. They clearly aren't listening to any advice or assistance from the sector, nor applying WHO protocols either.

So what do you do?

it is a bit of a shambles I don't think they know what they are doing but strike action is not the solution. We don't need a winter of discontent now:)

Smacruairi · 20-09-2020 1:36am

s1ippy wrote: »

Will the public sector pay increase not restore teachers' salaries too? I know there are about three tiers now, are they going to be equalised?

Maybe pay restoration could wait though. It's not my pocket being hit so I know it's easy for me to say but if I were still a teacher, I think my personal priority would probably be to get the school environments up to an adequate standard of safety and enable me to do my job. Again though, I'm not up to speed on the nuance of the pay situation anymore. I just think making it about that minimises the immediate risks posed.

Contact tracing issues are an absolute mess though. Definitely 100% keep the app and keep your phone on you at all times, don't let them try and use the excuses. Although I know they banned pokémon go from working in schools so it's not outside the realms of possibility that they do that.

Just seems we are a bit unsure on what our outcome is. Everyone can agree that the social distancing in classes is non existent. So are we looking for half in half out? Certain year groups remotely? Extend the day and double the staff? Just striking because we are not happy just seems to be the message at the moment.

s1ippy · 20-09-2020 1:37am

The Belly wrote: »

it is a bit of a shambles I don't think they know what they are doing but strike action is not the solution. We don't need a winter of discontent now:)

Imo the winter of discontent is the hospitals full of school staff which may be on the horizon in the cold months ahead.

Smacruairi · 20-09-2020 1:38am

The Belly wrote: »

it is a bit of a shambles I don't think they know what they are doing but strike action is not the solution. We don't need a winter of discontent now:)

True. But unless the devil himself was a teacher you will never have public opinion support a teacher strike, so to be honest, that's never a motivator for us! To be fair, the union looks after the workers, not the kids so.

The Belly · 20-09-2020 1:40am

s1ippy wrote: »

Imo the winter of discontent is the hospitals full of school staff which may be on the horizon in the cold months ahead.

nope, that won't happen. it will be ok. But can't have the country come to a standstill overstrikes. People are under enough pressure. They said we are in this together well we are now. Time to buckle down and get on with it. And if pay rise doesn't happen so be it.

s1ippy · 20-09-2020 1:44am

The Belly wrote: »

nope, that won't happen. it will be ok. But can't have the country come to a standstill overstrikes... And if pay rise doesn't happen so be it.

The country will come to a standstill anyway when there aren't enough staff for the schools. It's as likely to happen as not. Healthcare workers were at one point a third of all cases, I'm not sure if that's still the case. Children and school staff are going to rapidly become the next most common groups based on the transmission we've seen just these past two weeks. I worry for children, so little is known about whether they will even be fully recovered. The normalisation of transmission is such a dangerous narrative we've been told to accept when we're in the dark about such pivotal information.

Smacruairi wrote: »

Just seems we are a bit unsure on what our outcome is. Everyone can agree that the social distancing in classes is non existent. So are we looking for half in half out? Certain year groups remotely? Extend the day and double the staff? Just striking because we are not happy just seems to be the message at the moment.

Yeah the wording will be cleared up hopefully soon. But the pay part of it seems to just be that teachers on precarious contacts should be given some certainty so that they can get by. That seems very reasonable to me.

The Belly · 20-09-2020 1:55am

mickdw wrote: »

I have sympathy for teachers as government seem to have taken the get on with it approach to teachers while every other area of society seems to be overly regulated.
I dont know what the story is re ppe being provided but from the few school staff ive heard interviewed, funding sdems to be good so should stretch to ppe for staff at least.
Im all for raising issues with department but this is absolutely the worst time to consider striking.
Strike action should be ruled out day one here as there is just too much going down at the minute to add that into the mix.

Take some control ask parents they will help don't strike. Keep it small and local and work from there. The government will not help. But they will be seen not able to sort it and that will bring the change in education you need.

s1ippy · 20-09-2020 2:41am

El Sueño wrote: »

<snip response to deleted post>

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/asti-to-ballot-for-industrial-action-over-covid-19-safety-concerns-1.4359606

On Friday public health doctors who are to the forefront in the fight against Covid-19 said they would ballot for industrial action before Christmas if the Government did not resolve a pay issue .

There are also growing tensions between health service trade unions and the HSE over redeployment and working arrangements.

Last week, health service trade unions told the HSE that an overall agreement reached earlier this year to facilitate the re-deployment of staff as part of dealing with the Covid-19 pandemic was “null and void”.

Unions said they would engage with health service management about individual or collective re-deployment of members on a case- by- case basis.

“However, that engagement is conditional on the HSE demonstrating a commitment to appropriate, full, and meaningful engagement and consultation on all matters.”

The letter sent this week shows further strains in the relationship between health service unions and management over what they see as a lack of consultation on a number of issues.

It looks like they might have some help from GPs in their industrial action. It really shows up the inadequacies of the public service, not from the point of view that individuals aren't good at their jobs or anything, but that they're just shamefully ignored by the government at every juncture if they highlight the issues they face daily. To the point that they actually have to stop working, at the risk of huge disruption. The government is in a really precarious position with these threatened actions.

Treppen · 20-09-2020 3:41am

<snip response to deleted post>
Anyway, I for one fully support a strike.
Teachers with serious medical conditions being forced into work. Staff not provided with protective gear. Absolutely fa priority testing.
Teachers with no IT provided.

It just follows logic.

They surveyed members and the findings were not good so the ball is back in the teachers court.

The Belly · 20-09-2020 3:59am

Anyway, I for one fully support a strike.

your right to support it it you beleive its the right course of action.

Teachers with serious medical conditions being forced into work. Staff not provided with protective gear. Absolutely fa priority testing.
Teachers with no IT provided.

thats what early retirement is for and there will be lots of it .

It just follows logic.

for older people yes

They surveyed members and the findings were not good so the ball is back in the teachers court

remains to be seen

mirrorwall14 · 20-09-2020 7:14am

I don’t think strike action is necessarily the way forward but there needs to be a massive publication of the reality of our schools, particularly at second level. The issues at primary are very different. I’d try and get the parents association on board. It’s going to be much much worse as it gets wet and cold when the only ventilation is doors/windows and it’s an absolute necessity with only 1m.

Schools with 100 plus in year groups and lack of space. Schools with 150 in year groups. Lunch times and corridors are jammed even giving the students base rooms. They’re having to eat in the rooms when it’s wet in particular as every spare inch is in use. They’re supposed to wear visors when eating but essentially they’re maskless and barely 1m apart for this. There’s wildly varied implementation of the guidance. We have managed the 1m for all classes (albeit the tape has lifted and the tables are drifting a lot now) but we’ve less doubles this year than before for example.

Photographs of staff and parents sitting in 1m socially distanced rooms for example showing the reality. People seem to think that it’s loads. It’s not. Students are still packed in

Wanderer78 · 20-09-2020 7:31am

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striking is sometimes a necessary act, it can sometimes be the only way to force changes, yes it is true, that some teachers are well paid, and have better terms and conditions to other public and private sector workers, but by god do they earn it. when public sector workers strike, they are effectively fighting for all citizens, including private sector workers

highly1111 · 20-09-2020 7:52am

I'm confused by the purpose of this strike. What exactly do the union want as a result of this?? Is it more funding and more teaching positions? Because as far as I can see it says why we're going to vote but it doesn't say what outcomes we're striking for if that makes sense.

shesty · 20-09-2020 8:05am

highly1111 wrote: »

I'm confused by the purpose of this strike. What exactly do the union want as a result of this?? Is it more funding and more teaching positions? Because as far as I can see it says why we're going to vote but it doesn't say what outcomes we're striking for if that makes sense.

That was my reaction to reading about the strike yesterday.

I am also wondering why they left it til now.Why didn't they just refuse to return to work?

Wanderer78 · 20-09-2020 8:19am

shesty wrote: »

That was my reaction to reading about the strike yesterday.

I am also wondering why they left it til now.Why didn't they just refuse to return to work?

all of them?

shesty · 20-09-2020 8:20am

Would have been just as effective, no? I mean intentionally not return, not by choice.

Wanderer78 · 20-09-2020 8:21am

shesty wrote: »

Would have been just as effective, no? I mean intentionally not return, not by choice.

would that have been accepted, by all citizens?

um7y1h83ge06nx · 20-09-2020 8:22am

I haven't read the whole thread but have seen the anger on the first page.

Teachers don't bother me but I will say one thing - the optics of a strike will look bad for teachers as they will be compared to other public sector workers and not favourably.

My wife is a HSE radiographer and deals with suspect Covid and confirmed Covid cases every day. She gets fully gowned up and goes into isolation rooms with a colleague to carry out portable x-rays on confirmed patients. She has carried out CT scans to confirm Covid on patients and all the usual duties as well.

The public I think will remember what some public sector staff did during this crisis and continue to do every day.

With luck common sense can prevail in the ASTI.

shesty · 20-09-2020 8:24am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

would that have been accepted, by all citizens?

Probably as much as a strike will be to be honest.Do you think a strike will be accepted?Potentially a non-return to school might have forced the Department's hand more?

gaiscioch · 20-09-2020 8:44am

It definitely needs to be highlighted that many if not all of us at secondary have 200-plus students from 200 different families on our full days - 9 classes x c. 25 students - in our confined, enclosed classrooms.

Where else in society is this expected of workers? My local Tesco, bank, hairdresser and everywhere else has limits on numbers allowed in - usually to spaces far larger than a classroom and usually not staying for as long.
I also would really like to know what the plan is if a teacher gets Covid and has to go home to a family where a child (or other family member) is high risk? Where can they stay as they surely cannot go home? Many spouses of teachers are very worried as they realise their teacher spouse is the weak link, the threat, to the family despite the family following all the health advice.

All that said, I don't want a return to teaching in a Lockdown. (A rant follows.) The stress of not-fit-for-purpose IT systems was relentless. For instance, a school giving Apple iPads and Microsoft Teams software has caused so much entirely unnecessary "not compatible" stress. Added to that was misbehaviour in particular online classes (the vast majority of kids were great) where the technology once again was completely unfit for purpose. For instance, kids being removed from a class but being able to get straight back in, and the teacher not being able to see who's misbehaving because they can't see participants' actions - e.g. when they unmute themselves - while they have a lesson/resource on the screen. We were thrown to the wolves, while Microsoft and Apple played their stupid competitive games and refused to fix the large number of school-specific issues with their products. Did anybody in the Irish Department of Education or the EU successfully pressurise these corporate behemoths to sort the issues out? It would seem not.

These IT issues in schools remain, in Sept 2020, widespread, as anybody who visits Teams Uservoice here will see.

And while we were put into this utterly unfit-for-purpose online teaching environment, many of us had our own little kids at home going out of their heads because they're watching too much tv/being neglected while both parents work online. And we had no grandparents or childminders to help out because of the Lockdown so, yeah, throwing little-unaccountable-pricks-taking-advantage-of-crap-online-teaching-technology into the mix was, for me in this context, the final straw. If we're locked down again and these technical issues still haven't been resolved, I'm simply not going to teach those classes. I gave far, far too much of my family's health the last time.

So any proposal which could return us to that environment will not have my support. Every day in school is a welcome relief. The ASTI needs to highlight our exceptional working conditions, what happens a teacher in the event of their inability to go home should they have Covid, and put pressure on the government to ensure that we are not thrown to the wolves again with unfit-for-purpose technology (and I haven't heard a single mention of any initiative by the Department on this).

Asti strike action

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