Your New WHS Index

Mantis Toboggan · 02-11-2020 8:33pm

Pacly wrote: »

Anyone else not receiving a verification email when signing up? Not in my spam folder either.

Yeah, can take a few hours to arrive, don't keep hitting resend.

Ceepo · 02-11-2020 9:26pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

The 95% playing handicap adjustment for stroke play and stableford will affect the higher handicappers more.

Sorry, can you explain the 95%, or where did that come from, as i didn't see any mention of it before.

As an example my HI is 21, which gives me a a course HC of 22 @ 21*120/113.
Where does the 95% come into it.

Sorry if it has been answered before and I missed it.

TIA

Golfgraffix · 02-11-2020 9:35pm

Ceepo wrote: »

Sorry, can you explain the 95%, or where did that come from, as i didn't see any mention of it before.

As an example my HI is 21, which gives me a a course HC of 22 @ 21*120/113.
Where does the 95% come into it.

Sorry if it has been answered before and I missed it.

TIA

to balance out the increase in Course Handicaps of higher handicap players against that of lower handicap players.

Seve OB · 02-11-2020 9:43pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

to balance out the increase in Course Handicaps of higher handicap players against that of lower handicap players.

It’s a bit daft really. I mentioned to my dad earlier on, he was just lost.

I think some sort of single calculation could have and should have been worked to accommodate this Adjustment when getting your course handicap from your HI. It is very confusing.

Ceepo · 02-11-2020 9:43pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

to balance out the increase in Course Handicaps of higher handicap players against that of lower handicap players.

Thanks.

So am I right in thinking for the purposes of a competition (stableford or stroke) i should calculate as follows 21*120/113*95 which would give me 21.8.

The question is why did they have to make something that was straight forward complicated.
Like a HI is is not really a HI if you have to take 95% if it.

Seve OB · 02-11-2020 9:45pm

Ceepo wrote: »

Thanks.

So am I right in thinking for the purposes of a competition (stableford or stroke) i should calculate as follows 21*120/113*95 which would give me 21.8.

The question is why did they have to make something that was straight forward complicated.
Like a HI is is not really a HI if you have to take 95% if it.

But you don’t.
You first have to turn your HI into a course handicap and then take 95% of that............

Totally agree with you.

Golfgraffix · 02-11-2020 9:59pm

I’m not sure a fully agree with the 95%, I was just talking with a fellow member on the this.

Imagine, for instance, a singles competition on a course with a slope of 113. All players will play off their handicap index. However, a "bogey" player will lose 5% (a full shot for a 20 handicapper) whereas the scratch player won't lose anything. How can that be fair?

Ceepo · 02-11-2020 10:00pm

Seve OB wrote: »

But you don’t.
You first have to turn your HI into a course handicap and then take 95% of that............

Totally agree with you.

It works out the same calculation.

copacetic · 02-11-2020 10:02pm

Looks like it will be easy enough when people get used to it, at least at home course, few issues to work out but our club site (IG based) gives you playing handicap for each set of tees along with your index. Can see it be confusing for people which one to write on card at first but otherwise will be easy enough. Presu,ably the app will too, currently mostly giving NaN results due to slope errors.

prawnsambo · 02-11-2020 10:13pm

Ceepo wrote: »

It works out the same calculation.

Not unless you're turning the first calculation into an integer before taking 95%

gypsy79 · 02-11-2020 10:32pm

Ceepo wrote: »

It works out the same calculation.

No it doesnt. There are two levels of rounding which is initially seemingly very confusing

DuckSlice · 02-11-2020 10:36pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

I’m not sure a fully agree with the 95%, I was just talking with a fellow member on the this.

Imagine, for instance, a singles competition on a course with a slope of 113. All players will play off their handicap index. However, a "bogey" player will lose 5% (a full shot for a 20 handicapper) whereas the scratch player won't lose anything. How can that be fair?

Well the scratch player has no shots to start with?

Ceepo · 02-11-2020 10:59pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

No it doesnt. There are two levels of rounding which is initially seemingly very confusing

To clarify the way i calculated it.
My Hi 21*120 (slope) /113 = 22.3.... 22.3*95 = 21.1..

Is this correct? Or am i totally confused

gypsy79 · 02-11-2020 11:04pm

Ceepo wrote: »

To clarify the way i calculated it.
My Hi 21*120 (slope) /130 = 22.3.... 22.3*95 = 21.1..

Is this correct? Or am i totally confused

21*120 (slope) /130 = 22.3 rounded to 22*0.95 = 20.9 rounded to 21

Same result, slightly different methodology

DuckSlice · 02-11-2020 11:04pm

Ceepo wrote: »

To clarify the way i calculated it.
My Hi 21*120 (slope) /130 = 22.3.... 22.3*95 = 21.1..

Is this correct? Or am i totally confused

I think you use 22 for the 95% calculation, in the same way that in a fourball comp it’s 90% of your playing handicap not your exact handicap in the old system. Still 21 would be playing handicap anyway.

Seve OB · 02-11-2020 11:38pm

Ceepo wrote: »

It works out the same calculation.

It’s only the same when your Playing handicap is single figures

By the way I was more answering your second point where you said like your HI is not really your HI if you have to take 95% of it

And that’s it’s unnecessarily confusing

gypsy79 · 02-11-2020 11:41pm

Seve OB wrote: »

It’s only the same when your Playing handicap is single figures

Not technically true but more likely to work out the same.

I really dont know why they needed round twice

Seve OB · 02-11-2020 11:45pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

Not technically true but more likely to work out the same.

Why not? 95% of any number less than or including 10, when rounded will be the same number.

gypsy79 · 02-11-2020 11:49pm

Seve OB wrote: »

Why not? 95% of any number less than or including 10, when rounded will be the same number.

Example 1.4 on a course with Slope 122

First Method = 1.4 * (122/113) * 0.95 = 1.43 rounded to 1

Second Method = 1.4 * (122/113) = 1.511 rounded to 2 and then 2 * 0.95 = 1.9 rounded to 2

Seve OB · 02-11-2020 11:53pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

Example 1.4 on a course with Slope 122

First Method = 1.4 * (122/113) * 0.95 = 1.43 rounded to 1

Second Method = 1.4 * (122/113) = 1.511 rounded to 2 and then 2 * 0.95 = 1.9 rounded to 2

I said playing handicap.
Your first method of calculating is incorrect. Playing handicap for that course is 2. It is only at this point that you calculate 95%.

gypsy79 · 02-11-2020 11:59pm

Seve OB wrote: »

I said playing handicap.
Your first method of calculating is incorrect. Playing handicap for that course is 2. It is only at this point that you calculate 95%.

Yes that is true. But the OP started off doing the whole calc the incorrect way

Russman · 03-11-2020 12:05am

There’s still that confusion as to when the rounding happens or if you round once or twice.
In my case:
HI is 10.2, slope is 123.
So a) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, @ 95% = 10.54 which would round to playing 11.
Or b) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, rounded to 11, @ 95% = 10.45 which would round to playing 10.

redzerdrog · 03-11-2020 12:26am

Russman wrote: »

There’s still that confusion as to when the rounding happens or if you round once or twice.
In my case:
HI is 10.2, slope is 123.
So a) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, @ 95% = 10.54 which would round to playing 11.
Or b) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, rounded to 11, @ 95% = 10.45 which would round to playing 10.

B I think, about 95% sure! :-)

Seve OB · 03-11-2020 1:21am

Russman wrote: »

There’s still that confusion as to when the rounding happens or if you round once or twice.
In my case:
HI is 10.2, slope is 123.
So a) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, @ 95% = 10.54 which would round to playing 11.
Or b) 10.2 x 123/113 = 11.10, rounded to 11, @ 95% = 10.45 which would round to playing 10.

yes B

Ceepo · 03-11-2020 9:02am

Seve OB wrote: »

yes B

So basically you round twice then.
Firstly to get your course handicap (which means very little as its going to be 95% of this)
The after getting 95% of the course handicap rounded number.

Someone somewhere didnt do a good job of making things simple

prawnsambo · 03-11-2020 9:08am

Ceepo wrote: »

So basically you round twice then.
Firstly to get your course handicap (which means very little as its going to be 95% of this)
The after getting 95% of the course handicap rounded number.

Someone somewhere didnt do a good job of making things simple

I suspect that this was the 'simple' way of dealing with the curve getting too steep as you went up the handicaps.

Ceepo · 03-11-2020 9:15am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I suspect that this was the 'simple' way of dealing with the curve getting too steep as you went up the handicaps.

Im sure down the road when everyone gets used of the new system it will work out fine.
But it doesn't seem (to me at least) to be a simplified starting system, when you have a blank canvas to start from..

yawhat? · 03-11-2020 9:24am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I suspect that this was the 'simple' way of dealing with the curve getting too steep as you went up the handicaps.

Are you absolutely certain about this? I haven’t seen it articulated anywhere that you round twice. I know that integer course handicaps were circulated by Golf Ireland, but I don’t see where it is specified that the integer course handicap is used before applying the playing adjustment.

The official published rules state specifically that you do not round The course handicap before applying the playing adjustment. A number of English clubs also have examples of the calculation with no rounding of course handicap. See attached link for an example. Scroll to the forth slide on the example on this page.

https://www.arcothall.co.uk/whs-4-course-playing-handicaps/

Apologies, I responded to the wrong post.

prawnsambo · 03-11-2020 9:39am

yawhat? wrote: »

Are you absolutely certain about this? I haven’t seen it articulated anywhere that you round twice. I know that integer course handicaps were circulated by Golf Ireland, but I don’t see where it is specified that the integer course handicap is used before applying the playing adjustment.

The official published rules state specifically that you do not round The course handicap before applying the playing adjustment. A number of English clubs also have examples of the calculation with no rounding of course handicap. See attached link for an example. Scroll to the forth slide on the example on this page.

https://www.arcothall.co.uk/whs-4-course-playing-handicaps/

Apologies, I responded to the wrong post.

I'm not certain, but (as you acknowledge) the tables sent out only specify integer course handicaps. The instructions on the table say this:

* When using the table, find the range containing your Handicap Index® in the left column. Play with the Course Handicap™ which corresponds with it in the right column.

Edit: There's also this. I know it's a US site, but the page is specifically about the WHS and the salient paragraphs are as follows:

Playing Handicap: The Course Handicap adjusted for any handicap allowances or Terms of the Competition. It represents the actual number of strokes the player gives or receives for the round being played in an event and is expressed as a whole number.

To further clarify, in some forms of play, it is appropriate to reduce the player’s Course Handicap to a number less than 100 percent - this is called a Handicap Allowance. This percentage (85 percent, for example, for Four-Ball Stroke Play) is recommended to create equity for all players participating in a specific format of play.

Here’s the formula for a Playing Handicap –

Playing Handicap = Course Handicap x handicap allowance

Example – A player with a Course Handicap of 15, has a resulting Playing Handicap of 13 when receiving 85% of his Course Handicap (with .5 or greater rounded upward – 15 x .85 = 12.75, rounded to 13).

dk1982 · 03-11-2020 9:42am

On the app which is now available on android play store, it only shows course handicaps for your hcap index but not your playing handicap for the course which is a bit pointless and only adds to the confusion

prawnsambo · 03-11-2020 9:49am

dk1982 wrote: »

On the app which is now available on android play store, it only shows course handicaps for your hcap index but not your playing handicap for the course which is a bit pointless and only adds to the confusion

It's not really. Let's say under CONGU you are playing matchplay. You get 100% of your handicap when playing singles, but 90% when playing fourball. There are other forms of play where under CONGU you don't get your full handicap allowance. But also, from a rules point of view, the important number to enter on your scorecard is your course handicap, not the strokes received.

This is the same as at present when you may be playing in a mixed tee competition and you get a stroke allowance relative to SSS. So say there are two sets of tees - one with an SSS of 72 (par 72) and the other longer set with an SSS of 73 (also par 72). Those players playing from the back tees get an extra shot. But they only put their current integer handicap on the card.

yawhat? · 03-11-2020 10:03am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm not certain, but (as you acknowledge) the tables sent out only specify integer course handicaps. The instructions on the table say this:

Edit: There's also this. I know it's a US site, but the page is specifically about the WHS and the salient paragraphs are as follows:

I would be astounded if they rounded twice.

Take the example of a course with a slope of 113. Course handicap will equal handicap index. If you round twice, everyone with a handicap index between 9.5 and 11.4 would be off 10 playing handicap in a singles. With a slope of 123, everyone with a handicap index between 8.8 and 10.5 would be 10 in singles. That’s just not equitable.

Ceepo · 03-11-2020 10:04am

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not really. Let's say under CONGU you are playing matchplay. You get 100% of your handicap when playing singles, but 90% when playing fourball. There are other forms of play where under CONGU you don't get your full handicap allowance. But also, from a rules point of view, the important number to enter on your scorecard is your course handicap, not the strokes received.

This is the same as at present when you may be playing in a mixed tee competition and you get a stroke allowance relative to SSS. So say there are two sets of tees - one with an SSS of 72 (par 72) and the other longer set with an SSS of 73 (also par 72). Those players playing from the back tees get an extra shot. But they only put their current integer handicap on the card.

So for the purposes of entering your handicap on a score card, you enter your "course" handicap and not your playing handicap.
Is that right?

Seve OB · 03-11-2020 10:17am

yawhat? wrote: »

I would be astounded if they rounded twice.

Take the example of a course with a slope of 113. Course handicap will equal handicap index. If you round twice, everyone with a handicap index between 9.5 and 11.4 would be off 10 playing handicap in a singles. With a slope of 123, everyone with a handicap index between 8.8 and 10.5 would be 10 in singles. That’s just not equitable.

Your course handicap is a rounded integer. We have been clearly told this in no uncertain terms. It’s always been this way. Nobody has even gone out and played off 9.7. The rules clearly state that your playing handicap is a % of your course handicap.

dk1982 · 03-11-2020 10:18am

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's not really. Let's say under CONGU you are playing matchplay. You get 100% of your handicap when playing singles, but 90% when playing fourball. There are other forms of play where under CONGU you don't get your full handicap allowance. But also, from a rules point of view, the important number to enter on your scorecard is your course handicap, not the strokes received.

This is the same as at present when you may be playing in a mixed tee competition and you get a stroke allowance relative to SSS. So say there are two sets of tees - one with an SSS of 72 (par 72) and the other longer set with an SSS of 73 (also par 72). Those players playing from the back tees get an extra shot. But they only put their current integer handicap on the card.

Ah yes, understood now. Makes sense. Cheers

yawhat? · 03-11-2020 10:28am

Seve OB wrote: »

Your course handicap is a rounded integer. We have been clearly told this in no uncertain terms. It’s always been this way. Nobody has even gone out and played off 9.7. The rules clearly state that your playing handicap is a % of your course handicap.

The rules don’t clearly state that anywhere I can see. Perhaps you can post a link?

They do clearly state that rounding only occurs after playing handicap allowance is applied. See top of page 65 in document at link below. These I presume are are the official rules.

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf

prawnsambo · 03-11-2020 10:29am

Ceepo wrote: »

So for the purposes of entering your handicap on a score card, you enter your "course" handicap and not your playing handicap.
Is that right?

Exactly. Most scorecards I've seen have a box for handicap and another one for strokes received. You don't get DQ for not putting in strokes received, you do for not putting in your handicap. So look at Course Handicap as Handicap and Playing Handicap as strokes received and you won't go wrong.

prawnsambo · 03-11-2020 10:31am

yawhat? wrote: »

The rules don’t clearly state that anywhere I can see. Perhaps you can post a link?

They do clearly state that rounding only occurs after playing handicap allowance is applied. See top of page 65 in document at link below. These I presume are are the official rules.

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf

That's quite an old set of rules. Published in 2019 and supposedly effective January 2020 when in actual fact, WHS did not come into effect in CONGU countries.

bigeasy · 03-11-2020 10:37am

I wonder is there another update planned for people missing scores , wrong tee’s etc

yawhat? · 03-11-2020 10:37am

prawnsambo wrote: »

That's quite an old set of rules. Published in 2019 and supposedly effective January 2020 when in actual fact, WHS did not come into effect in CONGU countries.

These rules are linked on the golfnet site.

https://www.golfnet.ie/whs

I’m not certain that rounding won’t apply twice, but I’m linking to why I think it won’t. Nobody can provide a link to where it says rounding should apply twice.

prawnsambo · 03-11-2020 10:38am

yawhat? wrote: »

These rules are linked on the golfnet site.

https://www.golfnet.ie/whs

I’m not certain that rounding won’t apply twice, but I’m linking to why I think it won’t. Nobody can provide a link to where it says rounding should apply twice.

I posted a link earlier from a US site. https://www.oga.org/playing-handicap-calculation-world-handicap-system

Edit: Also it's clear from the tables provided by Golf Ireland.

yawhat? · 03-11-2020 10:45am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I posted a link earlier from a US site. https://www.oga.org/playing-handicap-calculation-world-handicap-system

Yes, but that doesn’t show the full calculation.

The course handicap is used for net double bogey adjustments, so it needs to be a whole number for that purpose. It does not need to be a whole number before applying the playing allowance.

Ceepo · 03-11-2020 10:51am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Exactly. Most scorecards I've seen have a box for handicap and another one for strokes received. You don't get DQ for not putting in strokes received, you do for not putting in your handicap. So look at Course Handicap as Handicap and Playing Handicap as strokes received and you won't go wrong.

Great, thanks for the clarification.

prawnsambo · 03-11-2020 11:03am

yawhat? wrote: »

Yes, but that doesn’t show the full calculation.

The course handicap is used for net double bogey adjustments, so it needs to be a whole number for that purpose. It does not need to be a whole number before applying the playing allowance.

I'm basing everything I'm posting on this subject on the guidance from Golf Ireland.

Here's part of an email that was sent out by them on Friday and was to be forwarded to all members by their respective clubs:

You simply have to choose the tees you are playing off that day and cross reference your Handicap Index on the Course & Slope Rating table to ascertain your Course Handicap. Different tees on the same course could have varying slope ratings. Your Course Handicap determines the number of strokes you give or receive off the tee set you intend to play from.

Then, depending on the format you are playing (singles, fourball etc.) you will apply a handicap allowance to your course handicap which will present you with your playing handicap.

For example: The recommended handicap allowance for individual stroke play events is 95% which means a player could have a course handicap of 15 but a playing handicap of 14.

prawnsambo · 03-11-2020 11:44am

Did an analysis on our club (most of the issues sorted now, so pretty close to final) handicaps relative to their new WHS Playing Handicap (including 95% adjustment).

Same or lower - 36%
1 stroke increase - 32%
2 stroke increase - 15%
3 stroke increase - 12%
More than 3 - 5%

Most of those larger increases relate to new members who just got allocated a handicap and haven't any scores in, or who got too low an allocation based on their performance since it was allocated. Very few (if any) relate to established golfers with a decent number of rounds in.

blue note · 03-11-2020 11:55am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Did an analysis on our club (most of the issues sorted now, so pretty close to final) handicaps relative to their new WHS Playing Handicap (including 95% adjustment).

Same or lower - 36%
1 stroke increase - 32%
2 stroke increase - 15%
3 stroke increase - 12%
More than 3 - 5%

Most of those larger increases relate to new members who just got allocated a handicap and haven't any scores in, or who got too low an allocation based on their performance since it was allocated. Very few (if any) relate to established golfers with a decent number of rounds in.

I'd love to see that breakdown by club. In theory they should all be very similar. But we'll see.

prawnsambo · 03-11-2020 12:30pm

blue note wrote: »

I'd love to see that breakdown by club. In theory they should all be very similar. But we'll see.

I suppose you could simplify it down to two thirds are lower or no more than one stroke. Which I think should be the norm.

yawhat? · 03-11-2020 12:40pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'm basing everything I'm posting on this subject on the guidance from Golf Ireland.

Here's part of an email that was sent out by them on Friday and was to be forwarded to all members by their respective clubs:

Yeah, I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think you are correct.

See calculator below from another UK club. There is no rounding before playing handicap. Example 8.8 handicap index on 124 slope with 95% adjustment gives you 9 playing handicap. This would be 10 if course handicap was rounded.

https://handy-six.vercel.app/

prawnsambo · 03-11-2020 12:42pm

yawhat? wrote: »

Yeah, I understand where you’re coming from, but I don’t think you are correct.

See calculator below from another UK club. There is no rounding before playing handicap. Example 8.8 handicap index on 124 slope with 95% adjustment gives you 9 playing handicap. This would be 10 if course handicap was rounded.

https://handy-six.vercel.app/

I'll know later for sure when I get the WHS version of Handicap Master running. That would be the definitive test. Assuming I can test without ruining somebody's handicap record.

Also. it's not me that's incorrect if you're right, it's Golf Ireland.

Edit: And I didn't have to wait to find out. This image is from the release notes for the latest version of HM:

So looks like you are correct. Take a bow.

yawhat? · 03-11-2020 1:05pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'll know later for sure when I get the WHS version of Handicap Master running. That would be the definitive test. Assuming I can test without ruining somebody's handicap record.

Also. it's not me that's incorrect if you're right, it's Golf Ireland.

Edit: And I didn't have to wait to find out. This image is from the release notes for the latest version of HM:

So looks like you are correct. Take a bow.

Yeah, the anomalies were too big when the rounded course handicaps are used. Thanks for the info.

Your New WHS Index

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