Planning permission up for greenway from Youghal to Midleton

Bacchus · 22-11-2018 4:09pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

There already is a subsidy for working commuters called taxsaver. Up to 50% saving on commuter tickets.

I meant more the variety that helps fund rail routes as opposed to putting money in people's pockets. As in, the ticket costs the customer X, but the route is supported with public money as well. I probably didn't explain that well. I just mean that Irish Rail say the route is not sustainable, so why not use public money for this route (and other similar routes around the country) to put in place good, reliable rail links that will encourage more adoption of them and thereby help get us out of the race to sink every rail route in the country.

deRanged · 22-11-2018 4:20pm

Irish Rail is running passenger count surveys at the moment, so better information on numbers using Midleton to Cork might emerge.

questionmark? · 22-11-2018 5:40pm

deRanged wrote: »

Irish Rail is running passenger count surveys at the moment, so better information on numbers using Midleton to Cork might emerge.

Why use surveys!! Can they not simply count the number of tickets sold including number of tag on/off of Leap Cards.

mordeith · 22-11-2018 6:21pm

questionmark? wrote: »

Why use surveys!! Can they not simply count the number of tickets sold including number of tag on/off of Leap Cards.

They would want to know the regularity of repeat users versus occasional users

namloc1980 · 22-11-2018 7:53pm

Bacchus wrote: »

I meant more the variety that helps fund rail routes as opposed to putting money in people's pockets. As in, the ticket costs the customer X, but the route is supported with public money as well. I probably didn't explain that well. I just mean that Irish Rail say the route is not sustainable, so why not use public money for this route (and other similar routes around the country) to put in place good, reliable rail links that will encourage more adoption of them and thereby help get us out of the race to sink every rail route in the country.

Irish Rail already gets a subsidy from the state to run routes, €115m in 2017. It comes down to resources and priorities. Opening the rail line to Youghal will cost €Xm in capex plus €Ym every year in a subvention. Is that better value for money than say reopening the Navan rail line into Dublin or redoing the N25?

In Cork alone I can think of numerous projects that I would put ahead of the train from Youghal to Midleton on a list of priorities. BusConnects, BRT/LRT corridor, North ring road, expansion of the existing suburban rail (higher frequency/more stations).

deRanged · 23-11-2018 11:08am

they were counting total passengers, with numbers in and out at each station.

Leap cards and tickets won't be all that accurate, a fair few people get scanned in and out by Irish rail staff.

questionmark? · 23-11-2018 7:30pm

deRanged wrote: »

they were counting total passengers, with numbers in and out at each station.

Leap cards and tickets won't be all that accurate, a fair few people get scanned in and out by Irish rail staff.

Single and day return tickets are fully accurate as they can just count the numbers sold on a giving day.

The leap card I suppose people may not tag off or on at intermediate stations but should be fully accounted for in Kent itself with barriers in place.

Cork Trucker · 30-11-2018 1:00pm

questionmark? wrote: »

Why use surveys!! Can they not simply count the number of tickets sold including number of tag on/off of Leap Cards.

I assume it is to take into account free travel pass holders also? They don't tag on/off like leap card users.

whisky_galore · 24-12-2018 6:49pm

marno21 wrote: »

The way things are going we'll soon have people campaigning for active railways to be shut down so we can have greenways.

There is at least one numpty running a FB group doing exactly that.

Cork Trucker · 01-01-2019 8:57pm

Any official updates on this?

deRanged · 11-01-2019 8:36am

first thing I've seen in ages. Cork County Council will vote on it next week.
link

Cork Trucker · 13-01-2019 8:07pm

deRanged wrote: »

first thing I've seen in ages. Cork County Council will vote on it next week.
link

We all know how that will go, appeals are possible.

deRanged · 14-01-2019 1:47pm

Voted yes, unanimously. On to the next hurdle.

marno21 · 14-01-2019 2:05pm

deRanged wrote: »

Voted yes, unanimously. On to the next hurdle.

It'll be super come 2030 when a train to the booming Cork city centre with reduced car access becomes viable from Youghal and there's a proposal to reopen the railway. Then all the Midleton people kick up a fuss and the plan is dropped because of political concerns. Youghal is the one that gets screwed.

Youghal is close enough to Cork to be a commuter town, it's not of sufficient scale to be able to develop independently. It's closer to Cork than Drogheda is to Dublin for instance.

Cork Trucker · 14-01-2019 3:49pm

marno21 wrote: »

It'll be super come 2030 when a train to the booming Cork city centre with reduced car access becomes viable from Youghal and there's a proposal to reopen the railway. Then all the Midleton people kick up a fuss and the plan is dropped because of political concerns. Youghal is the one that gets screwed.

Youghal is close enough to Cork to be a commuter town, it's not of sufficient scale to be able to develop independently. It's closer to Cork than Drogheda is to Dublin for instance.

The 200 or so who showed up to the Walter Raleigh Hotel need to lodge appeals. If ground breaks on this then that's it.

deRanged · 14-01-2019 3:54pm

There were over 300 submissions on the greenway idea, so there will be strong voices for and against. I don't think it's anywhere near done and dusted yet.

I also read that they changed the plans to have the entrance from the train station in Midleton. I'm amazed that anywhere else was considered in the first place.

Cork Trucker · 14-01-2019 4:02pm

deRanged wrote: »

There were over 300 submissions on the greenway idea, so there will be strong voices for and against. I don't think it's anywhere near done and dusted yet.

I also read that they changed the plans to have the entrance from the train station in Midleton. I'm amazed that anywhere else was considered in the first place.

Will it be appealed to ABP i wonder or even a judicial review. All for having rail and trail side by side though.

mordeith · 14-01-2019 4:52pm

The fact that the Greenway is approved on the basis that it can be reverted to other purposes would suggest any appeals would not be successful. Have a Greenway now and if a railway is viable in the future go back to that.

whisky_galore · 14-01-2019 6:31pm

mordeith wrote: »

The fact that the Greenway is approved on the basis that it can be reverted to other purposes would suggest any appeals would not be successful. Have a Greenway now and if a railway is viable in the future go back to that.

Once a greenway always a greenway, evidence from the UK suggests that reverting to a railway almost never happens even if there is a business case for reopening.
Regarding Youghal, I think it was a foregone conclusion that they would vote for a greenway, there's little appetite in Ireland for public transport even for the greater good. Even the Luas works were greeted with whinging that business would be affected. Dublin would choke in traffic without it now.
Irish Rail had to be dragged kicking and screaming to rebuild to Midleton, where would we be without that now??

pukeko · 15-01-2019 10:02am

Fantastic news! Will be a great additional piece of infrastructure for the area on unused land. Broadband \ utility ducting provided for in the planning also.

Cork Trucker · 19-01-2019 10:05am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Once a greenway always a greenway, evidence from the UK suggests that reverting to a railway almost never happens even if there is a business case for reopening.
Regarding Youghal, I think it was a foregone conclusion that they would vote for a greenway, there's little appetite in Ireland for public transport even for the greater good. Even the Luas works were greeted with whinging that business would be affected. Dublin would choke in traffic without it now.
Irish Rail had to be dragged kicking and screaming to rebuild to Midleton, where would we be without that now??

The need to be dragged kicking and screaming to do the rest of it as well.

whisky_galore · 20-01-2019 12:05am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The need to be dragged kicking and screaming to do the rest of it as well.

Youghal isn't as proactive as Midleton.
Look at the state of the place. That Perks place that greets you on the approach to the town, with the broken cartoon characters on the facade, right next to abject dereliction looks like something out of the former USSR. Elsewhere, peeling paint, ugly apartments and boarded up dreadfulness. The beach down by Red Barn is full of rubbish that's been there for years.

Cork Trucker · 20-01-2019 11:02am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Youghal isn't as proactive as Midleton.
Look at the state of the place. That Perks place that greets you on the approach to the town, with the broken cartoon characters on the facade, right next to abject dereliction looks like something out of the former USSR. Elsewhere, peeling paint, ugly apartments and boarded up dreadfulness. The beach down by Red Barn is full of rubbish that's been there for years.

Youghal is in bad need of investment, the train service would have kick started that, god knows Bus Eireann provide a poor service that is either late or never shows up. I know perks well and recall it when it was located by the beach itself prior to the apartments being built.

The Midleton line isn't all that fantastic either, not even turning a profit, but it still has a good service that can avoid the congested N25.

Closing railways to open greenways is not the way to get people to shift from private cars to public transport, trains are far more reliable and no traffic either.

mordeith · 20-01-2019 1:22pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The Midleton line isn't all that fantastic either, not even turning a profit,

How do you get past this point though when it comes to reinstating railways?

marno21 · 20-01-2019 2:11pm

There are no profitable railways in Ireland. Profitability isn't a factor here

questionmark? · 20-01-2019 2:20pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The Midleton line isn't all that fantastic either, not even turning a profit, but it still has a good service that can avoid the congested N25.

Name a railway that turns a profit in ireland?
Midleton and Cobh lines are doing quite well and continue to get more and more popular.
The line to Youghal would simply cost too much to serve too few people. The priority in Cork suburban rail is the planned/proposed stations at Midleton West (in middle of zoned land for 5k houses) , Carrigtowhill West in the IDA park, Tivoli (long term as part of plans for housing there) and Blackpool. All of these are way ahead in importance than re-opening Youghal.

Cork Trucker · 20-01-2019 3:16pm

marno21 wrote: »

There are no profitable railways in Ireland. Profitability isn't a factor here

questionmark? wrote: »

Name a railway that turns a profit in ireland?
Midleton and Cobh lines are doing quite well and continue to get more and more popular.
The line to Youghal would simply cost too much to serve too few people. The priority in Cork suburban rail is the planned/proposed stations at Midleton West (in middle of zoned land for 5k houses) , Carrigtowhill West in the IDA park, Tivoli (long term as part of plans for housing there) and Blackpool. All of these are way ahead in importance than re-opening Youghal.

Marno21 saved me answering the first bit of your question.

The saying was always that as long as the Cobh railway stays open there is hope for Youghal.

Mogeely,Killeagh,Castlemartyr & Youghal have all grown extensively in the last 30 years, further growth likely to happen in the next 30, i don't buy into an IR study that shows it wouldn't be feasible, it's what they want themselves.

The Blackpool station is shelved permanently in all but name, Kenneth O'Flynn the Cllr confirmed this to me in an email.

Carrigtwohill will happen.

Tivoli is going to be held up in part by the M28 being delayed possibly, while everything may transfer to Ringaskiddy pre M28, it won't be as efficient as people would want without the motorway, that is for the M28 thread though.

marno21 · 20-01-2019 5:49pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Marno21 saved me answering the first bit of your question.

The saying was always that as long as the Cobh railway stays open there is hope for Youghal.

Mogeely,Killeagh,Castlemartyr & Youghal have all grown extensively in the last 30 years, further growth likely to happen in the next 30, i don't buy into an IR study that shows it wouldn't be feasible, it's what they want themselves.

The Blackpool station is shelved permanently in all but name, Kenneth O'Flynn the Cllr confirmed this to me in an email.

Carrigtwohill will happen.

Tivoli is going to be held up in part by the M28 being delayed possibly, while everything may transfer to Ringaskiddy pre M28, it won't be as efficient as people would want without the motorway, that is for the M28 thread though.

The short to medium plans for the Cork Suburban Rail network will become clear when the CMATS policy document is published. It is 100% going to include further railway stations on the suburban network, but the exact ones are still up in the area. Some pick from Blackpool/Kilbarry, Tivoli, Dunkettle, Carrigtwohill West, Amgen site (pending development there), Watergate.

pukeko · 21-01-2019 12:19pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Youghal is in bad need of investment, the train service would have kick started that, god knows Bus Eireann provide a poor service that is either late or never shows up. I know perks well and recall it when it was located by the beach itself prior to the apartments being built.

The Midleton line isn't all that fantastic either, not even turning a profit, but it still has a good service that can avoid the congested N25.

Closing railways to open greenways is not the way to get people to shift from private cars to public transport, trains are far more reliable and no traffic either.

There is no doubt Youghal is in dire need to investment. Growing tourism in the area would be one way to kick start that. Let the track become a greenway, get people visiting the area again, and spending money, and then lets see what comes of that.

Cork Trucker · 21-01-2019 12:38pm

pukeko wrote: »

There is no doubt Youghal is in dire need to investment. Growing tourism in the area would be one way to kick start that. Let the track become a greenway, get people visiting the area again, and spending money, and then lets see what comes of that.

It won't mirror the success of the Deise Greenway, this is part of what Cork County Council are going on.

pukeko · 21-01-2019 1:05pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

It won't mirror the success of the Deise Greenway, this is part of what Cork County Council are going on.

Perhaps not but that's not a good enough reason not to invest and leave the track abandoned and unused. Why not try something to improve the locality for the community and visitors. If it attracts any bit of business growth and tourism activity along the line it will have been worth it.

whisky_galore · 21-01-2019 5:13pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

It won't mirror the success of the Deise Greenway, this is part of what Cork County Council are going on.

A clear copycat job of what's across the border, at least Dungarvan has had its act together pre greenway, a fine town square, minimal dereliction, some restaurants and pubs that the visitor would be inclined to linger in. Youghal doesn't have anything as appealing and I doubt a greenway would encourage it out of its slumber and make something of itself.

JonathonS · 22-01-2019 10:58am

whisky_galore wrote: »

Youghal doesn't have anything as appealing and I doubt a greenway would encourage it out of its slumber and make something of itself.

That is unfair and not true - at least according to the Tidy Towns adjudicators: https://www.tidytowns.ie/u_reports/2017/2017%20County%20Cork_South%20Youghal%20600.pdf

Quote: "The stunning coastal location, rich history, unique buildings and elevated setting provide Youghal with an enviable range of attractions and we were delighted to see that your committee (and volunteers) with the support of the Council, local businesses and community are working hard. . . etc etc"

Having said that I weep every time I pass the block of flats that overlook the strand. The people who were responsible for "designing" and building them have a lot to answer for. As for whoever gave them planning permission - what were they thinking?

Bacchus · 22-01-2019 3:56pm

To add to JonathonS's post, while I agree that Youghal needs regeneration, it has a couple of things going for it that could be added to easily. It already has a fantastic beach front and boardwalk... which will probably be the most attractive scenery connected to this route (is there anything of note along the route itself?) and therefore a nice end point (or starting point). If I'm not mistaken, the Walter Raleigh hotel was refurbished in the last 2 years too which at least puts some beach front luxury in the heart of Youghal again. Priory Coffee in the town is a fantastic cafe for those passing through (they've even opened a branch in Cork City and Mallow). I've not been but my wife has said great things about the Regal cinema that offers a bit of a different cinema experience to the likes of Omniplex.

Sure, it's not a big list but it's not nothing, and you'd hope Youghal would seize the opportunity to make the extra push and give people more reasons to stop for a visit.

I've never really been behind the greenway idea (preferring a rail line) but if this is what's going in, I wish it every success and I look forward to making use of it (especially considering how closely it'll pass by where I live). If it help Youghal in any way, then yay to that.

hans aus dtschl · 22-01-2019 6:29pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The saying was always that as long as the Cobh railway stays open there is hope for Youghal.

Mogeely,Killeagh,Castlemartyr & Youghal have all grown extensively in the last 30 years, further growth likely to happen in the next 30, i don't buy into an IR study that shows it wouldn't be feasible, it's what they want themselves.

The Blackpool station is shelved permanently in all but name, Kenneth O'Flynn the Cllr confirmed this to me in an email.

Carrigtwohill will happen.

Tivoli is going to be held up in part by the M28 being delayed possibly, while everything may transfer to Ringaskiddy pre M28, it won't be as efficient as people would want without the motorway, that is for the M28 thread though.

Cobh is about a half the distance of Youghal, with significant harbour enterprise areas along the route. The Midleton-Youghal stretch is largely farmland. I've said it before on here, if Mogeely gets a large expansion (similar to the Waterrock development) then there will be some hope for the Youghal line, but not before then. Killeagh and Youghal might have expanded but nowhere near enough and with nowhere near enough density to justify a railway.

Regarding "IR don't want to..." they have been burned by poor business justification where reality did not meet projections (Midleton for instance). They answer to the government and must think of opportunity cost as they do not have unlimited funding. If they were to open Youghal, then it would be at the expense of Carrigtwohill, Kilbarry, Dunkettle P&R, etc. This would represent poor decision making on their part and heads should roll in that circumstance. I believe that's why it's been ruled out: not because of a lack of willingness.

As far as I am aware, the port is currently planning its move regardless of the M28: they believe they will free up Tivoli, paving the way for the City expansion there.

The Cork MATS drawings include a Blackpool/Kilbarry station: I don't think it's a dead duck at all.

pukeko · 22-01-2019 7:00pm

Bacchus wrote: »

To add to JonathonS's post, while I agree that Youghal needs regeneration, it has a couple of things going for it that could be added to easily. It already has a fantastic beach front and boardwalk... which will probably be the most attractive scenery connected to this route (is there anything of note along the route itself?) and therefore a nice end point (or starting point). If I'm not mistaken, the Walter Raleigh hotel was refurbished in the last 2 years too which at least puts some beach front luxury in the heart of Youghal again. Priory Coffee in the town is a fantastic cafe for those passing through (they've even opened a branch in Cork City and Mallow). I've not been but my wife has said great things about the Regal cinema that offers a bit of a different cinema experience to the likes of Omniplex.

Sure, it's not a big list but it's not nothing, and you'd hope Youghal would seize the opportunity to make the extra push and give people more reasons to stop for a visit.

I've never really been behind the greenway idea (preferring a rail line) but if this is what's going in, I wish it every success and I look forward to making use of it (especially considering how closely it'll pass by where I live). If it help Youghal in any way, then yay to that.

You could also add: Decent beachside swimming pool, Claycastle pitch & putt, Greyhound track, Perks (Ok its a bit tired now but still very popular). The cinema is lovely, very nicely restored and showing some interesting films as well as the blockbusters. It needs a boost and this project will help.

pukeko · 22-01-2019 7:03pm

Glenbower woods and The Old Thatch pub in Killeagh are also along the route and both worth a visit.

Bacchus · 23-01-2019 2:11pm

pukeko wrote: »

Glenbower woods and The Old Thatch pub in Killeagh are also along the route and both worth a visit.

Looking at the route, Killeagh stand to benefit a lot (possibly the most) from this. The route cut right through the village. Good time to consider opening up a new cafe

Cork Trucker · 24-09-2019 1:24pm

A fcuking joke :mad::mad::mad:

https://twitter.com/echolivecork/status/1176457471399010304

Hibernicis · 24-09-2019 2:16pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

A fcuking joke :mad::mad::mad:

https://twitter.com/echolivecork/status/1176457471399010304

Whats wrong with this ?

Cork Trucker · 24-09-2019 2:21pm

Hibernicis wrote: »

Whats wrong with this ?

What’s right with it more like

deRanged · 24-09-2019 2:32pm

excellent. great to see this start.

Hibernicis · 24-09-2019 2:42pm

deRanged wrote: »

excellent. great to see this start.

I thought the same. Was curious to understand the issue that caused the other poster such concern

Cork Trucker · 24-09-2019 3:11pm

Hibernicis wrote: »

I thought the same. Was curious to understand the issue that caused the other poster such concern

At a time when world leaders are crying out about climate change etc, reopening the line was an opportunity to help ease traffic congestion on an already congested N25. I’m not anti greenway, just not at the expense of the railway line.

mordeith · 24-09-2019 3:15pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

At a time when world leaders are crying out about climate change etc, reopening the line was an opportunity to help ease traffic congestion on an already congested N25. I’m not anti greenway, just not at the expense of the railway line.

We've been over this loads of times in previous posts. The railway line is not commercially viable. It simply won't happen.

Cork Trucker · 24-09-2019 3:32pm

mordeith wrote: »

We've been over this loads of times in previous posts. The railway line is not commercially viable. It simply won't happen.

Well i reckon figures are falsified by irish Rail but yes this has been covered.

marno21 · 24-09-2019 4:30pm

mordeith wrote: »

We've been over this loads of times in previous posts. The railway line is not commercially viable. It simply won't happen.

There are no comercially viable railway lines in Ireland

hans aus dtschl · 29-09-2019 5:02pm

marno21 wrote: »

There are no comercially viable railway lines in Ireland

Yes but I think the point being made by many is that Irish Rail have a number of higher priority, lower-cost, lower-risk CapEx's on their agenda than Youghal, and are struggling to get them over the line. By all means I'd love rail to Youghal, but it's a long-term goal at best.

Hibernicis · 05-10-2019 10:51am

From today’s Irish Times

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/work-on-15m-midleton-youghal-greenway-to-start-next-month-1.4041543

Cork Trucker · 05-10-2019 11:22am

Mirror the Waterford greenway? Some serious drugs being smoked.

Planning permission up for greenway from Youghal to Midleton

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