Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Boggles · 03-07-2019 1:24pm

Tell me how wrote: »

They're not talking about overthrowing anything.
They're talking about letting people vote again given the 3 years since the referendum, the realisation that promises beforehand were just lies, the shambles in the HoC since and the absence of a workable plan from anyone in the UK.

Having a 2nd vote within the next year would be democracy in action.

Do you think their would be no lies told if a 2nd vote was granted?

I imagine it would dwarf the BS from the first one by some margin, they would also have the stick of Democracy been Trampled, etc.

blinding · 03-07-2019 1:25pm

Elemonator wrote: »

The biggest argument against democracy is the common voter...

You are not a Democrat .

Tell me how · 03-07-2019 1:29pm

Boggles wrote: »

Do you think their would be no lies told if a 2nd vote was granted?

I imagine it would dwarf the BS from the first one by some margin, they would also have the stick of Democracy been Trampled, etc.

Of course there would, but, they'd be countered by the facts that no Brexiteer was able to suggest a workable solution, no decent trade deals have been done and jobs have been lost in UK.

Boggles · 03-07-2019 1:33pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Of course there would, but, they'd be countered by the facts that no Brexiteer was able to suggest a workable solution, no decent trade deals have been done and jobs have been lost in UK.

I'm not so sure any counter argument would be listened to, my suspicion for this?

The Brexit Party just won a national vote by some margin.

InTheShadows · 03-07-2019 1:38pm

Tell me how wrote: »

They're not talking about overthrowing anything.
They're talking about letting people vote again given the 3 years since the referendum, the realisation that promises beforehand were just lies, the shambles in the HoC since and the absence of a workable plan from anyone in the UK.

Having a 2nd vote within the next year would be democracy in action.

Where would you stop though? Best of three? Honestly it would do more harm than good. People here in Ireland are really underestimating how strongly the majority in the UK feel about this,

InTheShadows · 03-07-2019 1:39pm

Boggles wrote: »

A lot of them were though, and a lot of them were just simpletons who would believe anything as long as it was written on the side of a bus.

Not strictly all their fault, the red tops and the populist inbred rich politicians poked the hive as well. Of course none of them will suffer.

But the proof is in the pudding, Brexit was going to be "easy", well no. They were sold a pup.

Case in point.

Boggles · 03-07-2019 1:40pm

InTheShadows wrote: »

Case in point.

It's the truth.

InTheShadows · 03-07-2019 1:43pm

Boggles wrote: »

It's the truth.

Look you've already called them thick c*unts and now simpletons. Sit down and think about that.

lawred2 · 03-07-2019 1:48pm

InTheShadows wrote: »

Look you've already called them thick c*unts and now simpletons. Sit down and think about that.

Well when you choose to ignore evidence and instead believe proven lies then you are more than likely nothing other than a thick cnut

03-07-2019 1:51pm

InTheShadows wrote: »

Look you've already called them thick c*unts and now simpletons. Sit down and think about that.

I hate to say it but there is a reason.

They actively believed proven lies, dismissed people with knowledge as "Experts" and having enough of "experts giving opinion".

This was not a general election where a politician will lie left and right for a vote, this was a Referendum with the information easily available and an advocate's stance easily examined/challenged.
Rather than do the basic critical examination of evidence they followed the big red bus to nationalism central

Professor Moriarty · 03-07-2019 1:51pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Well when you choose to ignore evidence and instead believe proven lies then you are more than likely nothing other than a think cnut

Bit harsh. Useful idiots.

Boggles · 03-07-2019 1:53pm

InTheShadows wrote: »

Look you've already called them thick c*unts and now simpletons. Sit down and think about that.

I absolute stand by that.

The poster I was replying to mused that Brexit supporters would feel aggrieved as to why all the immigrants were not all gone after Article 50 was triggered.

i.e that is all people originally from the 27 countries currently residing in Britain did not leave immediately and I guess by extension all Brits living abroad would come home.

I think I was being kind with "thick cúnts" TBH.

Tell me how · 03-07-2019 1:58pm

InTheShadows wrote: »

Where would you stop though? Best of three? Honestly it would do more harm than good. People here in Ireland are really underestimating how strongly the majority in the UK feel about this,

I've siblings and friends in UK. One brother is a business owner (non-export).

You do know there's governmental elections every 5 years. Why is that? Because circumstances change.

An Claidheamh · 03-07-2019 1:59pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Simple, it does not care about democracy. I used to be pro EU by the way.

Kid chameleon, it is the British who will not leave.

BRITAIN REFUSES TO LEAVE.

The EU are not forcing to to stay.

But, the Brits will not blame themselves

Historically, Britain has always struggled with the definition of democracy, as we well know here.....

An Claidheamh · 03-07-2019 2:03pm

KildareP wrote: »

Of course they don't want Britain to leave.
But they're not making Britain stay either.

Oi Oi Oi

Stop with your logic you EU Bully!

03-07-2019 2:10pm

Aegir wrote: »

Seeing as the UK actually contributes money to the European Union, I’d say the Brexit party MEPs are actually pocketing their own money, not Ireland’s.

You say that as if Britain has been voluntarily subsidising the EU, rather than paying that money to get much more back by virtue of free access to a market of another 450 million people. This is one of the big lies of Brexiteers.

The enormous success of London's financial services, for instance, because of EU membership has given much more back to the British economy than what Britain has paid in. The notion among Brexiteers that Britain has paid money into the EU as some form of charity is plainly risible. But then again if Brexit is powered by anything, it's by the most wilfully ignorant and gullible electorate in western Europe.

03-07-2019 2:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

But then again if Brexit is powered by anything, it's by the most wilfully ignorant and gullible electorate in western Europe.

Ah here, we've voted in a FF/FG/FF cycle for a 100 years while expecting change every time!!

Boggles · 03-07-2019 2:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Ah here, we've vote in an FF/FG/FF cycle for a 100 years while expecting change every time!!

Poor Labour.

Tell me how · 03-07-2019 2:25pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah here, we've vote in an FF/FG/FF cycle for a 100 years while expecting change every time!!

Yes but Greens, Labour, Independents, have gotten opportunity to influence policy at a pretty consistent level for last 30 years.

I don't know what way people expect the government to dramatically change. We have virtually full employment, good access to education and in terms of healthcare, the budget for that more than doubled in last 12 years or so.

jimmycrackcorm · 03-07-2019 2:25pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If the EU are so perfect then why do the British want to leave? Why is there growing resentment towards the union? There are plenty of things the EU has done delay Brexit. For example the extortionate divorce bill, allowing an extension until October 31st, the blatant opposition to Brexit from top EU officials, I could go on and on.

I think the more print question should be that out of 28 countries, why is it that the UK is the only one that wants to leave.

03-07-2019 2:25pm

Boggles wrote: »

Poor Labour.

Labour decided to go in as a minor party with FG, who did not really need them, in a blinkered attempt at curbing FG excess, as opposed to being the leaders of the austerity opposition.
Their naive vision and inability to play a longer game allowed FG to destroy them as a future threat, by turning their swing voters completely against them. Taking the blame for all the worst of FG policy.

03-07-2019 2:29pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Yes but Greens, Labour, Independents, have gotten opportunity to influence policy at a pretty consistent level for last 30 years.

I don't know what way people expect the government to dramatically change. We have virtually full employment, good access to education and in terms of healthcare, the budget for that more than doubled in last 12 years or so.

Influence policy is not creating policy.
influencing a policy which attacks your core demographic will never get you plaudits and junior parties always take the flak for the FF/G party anger because people, incorrectly, believe that they vote the minority party to curb the major (See: PDs, Greens, Labour, Independents soon?)

We have a somewhat doctored unemployment figure (not huge but enough to be worth mentioning)
2nd highest college fee system in the EU (UK is first actually)
2 tier health care system with a missing middle not covered by Private or Public.
Budget thrown at health, without correct audit of structural weakness.

FF and FG are different sides of the same coin and their popularity is not based on political ideology rather than still being a Civil War legacy.
It has destroyed a centre left (or even left of centre) parties and left us with the un-electable fringe socialist crazies alá PBP

03-07-2019 3:01pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah here, we've vote in an FF/FG/FF cycle for a 100 years while expecting change every time!!

Yes, and the Brexiteers manage the extraordinary feat of even making the Blueshirts - God help us - look like culturally enlightened intellectuals with a social conscience.

03-07-2019 3:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, and the Brexiteers manage the extraordinary feat of even making the Blueshirts - God help us - look like culturally enlightened intellectuals with a social conscience.

OK fair enough.

Standman · 03-07-2019 3:13pm

We've been through 800 years of oppression from the ruthless Brits. But we have to ask now, is democracy working? As Churchill said, if you want to know the biggest argument against democracy, talk to the average voter.

Kidchameleon · 03-07-2019 3:17pm

An Claidheamh wrote: »

Kid chameleon, it is the British who will not leave.

BRITAIN REFUSES TO LEAVE.

The EU are not forcing to to stay.

But, the Brits will not blame themselves

Historically, Britain has always struggled with the definition of democracy, as we well know here.....

Which is why they need a pm who will have the guts to leave, deal or no deal. It is not the people who are refusing to leave (they voted to leave) it is the establishment.

Kidchameleon · 03-07-2019 3:18pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think the more print question should be that out of 28 countries, why is it that the UK is the only one that wants to leave.

It wont be the only one for long. What you are seeing is the turning of the tide.

Tell me how · 03-07-2019 3:23pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

It wont be the only one for long. What you are seeing is the turning of the tide.

Why do you want the EU to disband?

All representatives are voted in.
Since it's inception, prosperity for all countries involved has increased.
Since it's inception, Europe has by and large been a much less dangerous place in terms of armed conflict.
Citizens have benefitted from free movement.
Businesses have benefitted from the single market.
Environmental issues have been targeted more than if all countries were doing so individually.

Why do you think we'd be better off without it?

kunst nugget · 03-07-2019 3:26pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

It wont be the only one for long. What you are seeing is the turning of the tide.

Statements like this are utterly meaningless and without a shred of substance. Not one country has come forward to follow Britain into the abyss and in fact we've seen a toning down of rhetoric in many countries across the EU where it's now about reforming the EU from within rather than jumping ship.

Dytalus · 03-07-2019 3:31pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

It wont be the only one for long. What you are seeing is the turning of the tide.

People said that when the result first came in. Since then the call for countries to have their own exits has dropped dramatically.

Italy? Totally dropped from the agenda. They might try to break out of the Euro but that doesn't have much in the way of momentum. Salvini, La Liga, and the Five Star movement have no plans to leave the block altogether.
Marine Le Pen in France has totally dropped her euro referendum in favour of a "europe of nations" - which is essentially a call for EU reform and not break up.
The Freedom Party in Austria abandoned their own euro-zone referendum, and have made no calls or motions towards their own break away.
And the guy calling for it in the Netherlands got hammered at the next elections for it.

And, of course our own brand: Irexit had a hilariously poor performance in the recent elections.

So...when are the dominoes supposed to start falling?

Kidchameleon · 03-07-2019 3:35pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Why do you want the EU to disband?

All representatives are voted in.
Since it's inception, prosperity for all countries involved has increased.
Since it's inception, Europe has by and large been a much less dangerous place in terms of armed conflict.
Citizens have benefitted from free movement.
Businesses have benefitted from the single market.
Environmental issues have been targeted more than if all countries were doing so individually.

Why do you think we'd be better off without it?

None of the advantages you list are worth the price of democracy. You say representatives are voted in but they are powerless. The EU is pushing for more power, they have tried to bring in a president similar to the US president (and they will try again), they want an army, they insist on approving our budgets, have a national anthem, tell us how long candle wicks should be ffs. The EU is pushing to become the United States of Europe. The last thing the world needs is another US.

No thanks, give us back the old roads and f*ck right off EU

Kidchameleon · 03-07-2019 3:38pm

Dytalus wrote: »

People said that when the result first came in. Since then the call for countries to have their own exits has dropped dramatically.
Italy? Totally dropped from the agenda. They might try to break out of the Euro but that doesn't have much in the way of momentum. Salvini, La Liga, and the Five Star movement have no plans to leave the block altogether.

Marine Le Pen in France has totally dropped her euro referendum in favour of a "europe of nations" - which is essentially a call for EU reform and not break up.

The Freedom Party in Austria abandoned their own euro-zone referendum, and have made no calls or motions towards their own break away.

And the guy calling for it in the Netherlands got hammered at the next elections for it.

And, of course our own brand: Irexit had a hilariously poor performance in the recent elections.

So...when are the dominoes supposed to start falling?

And this is all part of the puppet show that the EU is performing with Britain, to dissuade any more countries from leaving. Wait till you see it, when Britain leaves and World War 3 doesn't break out and Britain starts to prosper even more, others heads will turn. The bricks are falling off.

Dytalus · 03-07-2019 3:39pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

You say representatives are voted in but they are powerless.

No EU directive or regulation can be made without the approval of our elected representatives in Parliament.

Your lack of understanding how the EU functions does not turn it into the monster you think it is.

Kidchameleon wrote: »

And this is all part of the puppet show that the EU is performing with Britain, to dissuade any more countries from leaving. Wait till you see it, when Britain leaves and World War 3 doesn't break out and Britain starts to prosper even more, others heads will turn. The bricks are falling off.

"When" is doing some incredibly heavy lifting there. I think you mean something more along the lines of:

"If Britain leaves and WW3 doesn't break out and if Britain starts to prosper more against every suggested plausible outcome made by economists and industry professionals and experts, both within the UK and outside it."

kunst nugget · 03-07-2019 3:43pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No thanks, give us back the old roads and f*ck right off EU

Seriously, what do you think is going to happen to a tiny country like Ireland in the event of the break up of the EU?

Boggles · 03-07-2019 3:43pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No thanks, give us back the old roads and f*ck right off EU

Catchy enough campaign slogan.

ancapailldorcha · 03-07-2019 3:45pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

It wont be the only one for long. What you are seeing is the turning of the tide.

Please. Be serious. Brexit is the greatest piece of pro-EU propaganda that could ever be envisaged.

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2019 3:46pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

And this is all part of the puppet show that the EU is performing with Britain, to dissuade any more countries from leaving. Wait till you see it, when Britain leaves and World War 3 doesn't break out and Britain starts to prosper even more, others heads will turn. The bricks are falling off.

But Britain won't leave...odds are that they (that is Britain) will look for another extension to navel gaze for another while.
Politicians are a reflection of society and the fact is, despite all the 'go it alone' bluster, Britain is afraid to leave.

fly_agaric · 03-07-2019 3:46pm

"The price of democracy"..."the turning of the tide"

Stirring stuff.
Perhaps someone can zombie up Churchill to fight the Nazis...err, sorry the EU.
There's a few in the UK parliament who look like they might know a bit about alchemy & weird science.

ancapailldorcha · 03-07-2019 3:47pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

But Britain won't leave...odds are that they (that is Britain) will look for another extension to navel gaze for another while.
Politicians are a reflection of society and the fact is, despite all the 'go it alone' bluster, Britain is afraid to leave.

The EU will see through this though. They'll demand concessions for an extension, either a People's Vote or a general election.

03-07-2019 3:47pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Well when you choose to ignore evidence and instead believe proven lies then you are more than likely nothing other than a thick cnut

Boggles wrote: »

A lot of them were though, and a lot of them were just simpletons who would believe anything as long as it was written on the side of a bus

InTheShadows wrote: »

Look you've already called them thick c*unts and now simpletons. Sit down and think about that.

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Bit harsh. Useful idiots.

Can we compromise and call them thick-cúnt simpletons who are useful idiots?

03-07-2019 3:48pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

Stirring stuff.
Perhaps someone can zombie up Churchill to fight the Nazis...err, sorry the EU.
There's a few in the UK parliament who look like they might know a bit about alchemy & weird science.

Already taken

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76cHROrZFNc

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2019 3:55pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The EU will see through this though. They'll demand concessions for an extension, either a People's Vote or a general election.

Yes...i.e. Britain's position is getting weaker and weaker. They could close up shop tomorrow and leave...nothing in the wide world stopping that nor has been since first deadline.
But they are too scared to leave without a deal that suits them and too arrogant to realise that the world no longer works that way.

Kidchameleon · 03-07-2019 4:11pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The EU will see through this though. They'll demand concessions for an extension, either a People's Vote or a general election.

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

source · 03-07-2019 4:14pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

You mean the 2 occasions where Ireland voted down the treaties in a referendum, there were changes made to suit us and we voted again on the altered treaties?

I certainly do count that as democracy, in fact its the very definition of democracy. As is the UK having a second referendum on leaving the UK.

Stephen15 · 03-07-2019 4:16pm

joe40 wrote: »

What immigrants would that be. EU immigrants that are still in Britain because Britain wants the same rights for their citizens in the EU.
Or non EU immigrants which have nothing to do with Brexit.
It is non sensical arguments like this which caused Brexit in the first place.
I don't mind a different opinion but one based on facts

Most working class people were sold on the basis that Brexit would mean an end to immigration both EU and non EU. I know full well about the difference between EU and non-EU immigration but many people don't. Brexit is going to be a big mistake with the Tories who'll probably let even more third world migrants instead of EU immigrants.

FrancieBrady · 03-07-2019 4:18pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

This referring to the EU as some 'other' entity. Britain, like Ireland, like Germany, like France, has been the EU for as long as they have been in it.

Stop the Daily Mail type conspiracy theories. The British led the EU just as much as anyone did.

ancapailldorcha · 03-07-2019 4:21pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Like Lisbon 2 or Nice 2? The EU only have themselves to blame for the prospect of Britain leaving and the spread of anti EU sentiment. If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

The original referendum mandate was ignored with the second referendum in 2016 or does "undemocratic" just mean plebiscites you disagree with.

lawred2 · 03-07-2019 4:27pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Bit harsh. Useful idiots.

You have to be a thick cnut to become such a useful idiot though

Auguste Comte · 03-07-2019 4:40pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

In the context of brexit a second referendum would be proper democracy. In the original vote the people were sold a pup. They were lied to about what brexit is. I mean brexit means brexit ffs.

Coming to a free trade agreement with the EU should be "one of the easiest in human history.' Liam Fox, July 2017

The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want.' Michael Gove, April 2016

‘I believe that we can get a free trade and customs agreement concluded before March 2019’. David Davis, January 2017

“Without our EU budget contributions, we could give everyone a 60 per cent council tax cut.” Daniel Hannan, September 2015

The British government listened to the people in what was a non binding vote, went to their partners in Europe and negotiated the best deal they could.

Now that the people actually know what brexit looks like the government should hold a binding vote, the deal, no deal or no brexit.

Boggles · 03-07-2019 4:42pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

If the original referendum is ignored and another run, how is it democracy?

I don't necessarily disagree with your point.

But It's democracy essentially that is preventing them from leaving.

Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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