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View Poll Results: Do you believe in God
Yes 163 24.62%
No 499 75.38%
Voters: 662. You may not vote on this poll

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18-10-2019, 11:13   #901
Zubeneschamali
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Originally Posted by realitykeeper View Post
a blind man can carry a sighted cripple. If there was no reason to co-operate, life would be unpleasant.
Life is unpleasant for the people who die in famines through no fault of their own, the children who die of cancer, the civilian casualties in war and terrorism. And these people are religious in the same proportion as any other people, belief in God is no protection from anything.

And if your god exists, they set it up that way. They apparently like cancer and worms in children's eyes and so on.
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18-10-2019, 12:21   #902
realdanbreen
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Apart from those TV Evangelists (dial the number below 1890.... to donate to our church),Has anyone here ever come across a priest, minister etc who came across as being utterly convinced about the existence of God or an afterlife? I'm around a while and have yet to meet one.
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18-10-2019, 12:31   #903
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If you do not understand the ways of this life, you would not understand the reasoning of the next. Anecdotally, we know that inequality is in fact a very good thing as it encourages co-operation e.g. trade. Societies that try to impose equality end up impoverished with everyone attempting to serve only themselves.
Ah...the "God is a neoliberal" argument.
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18-10-2019, 12:44   #904
Permabear II
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As of 2011 there is no formal process. The option was removed from canon law:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...-law-1.1488263
Thanks for the correction. I wasn't aware of that change.
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18-10-2019, 12:52   #905
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And if your god exists, they set it up that way. They apparently like cancer and worms in children's eyes and so on.
As has been argued elsewhere, either god allows these things to happen or can't prevent them happening. He is either all powerful or all good, but can't be both.
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18-10-2019, 13:05   #906
Zubeneschamali
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As has been argued elsewhere, either god allows these things to happen or can't prevent them happening. He is either all powerful or all good, but can't be both.
realitykeeper's position seems to be that these things are for a greater good, encouraging us to be better and overcome the problems.

Encouraging us to be better than the God who caused these issues... strange kind of theology.
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18-10-2019, 13:22   #907
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realitykeeper's position seems to be that these things are for a greater good, encouraging us to be better and overcome the problems.

Encouraging us to be better than the God who caused these issues... strange kind of theology.
Indeed. All the more suspicious since natural selection requires something similar.
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18-10-2019, 13:27   #908
nozzferrahhtoo
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Has anyone here ever come across a priest, minister etc who came across as being utterly convinced about the existence of God or an afterlife?
When I was collecting consecrated hosts and performing experiments on them one of the experiments I did was to bring normal and consecrated ones to priests to see if they could identify which was which.

So I met quite a lot of priests in that time. And yes most of them portrayed themselves as utterly convinced, and gave me little reason to doubt them.

We had two priests in my Secondary school in Raheny/clontarf too. One was John and the others name I forget but he was also our French teacher. The former seemed utterly and entirely convinced. Very much so. Though he also liked to invite boys into his office to smoke with him alone. Make of that what you will.

The latter seemed to think it was very funny and for some reason took any excuse, even in French class, to give us the class off to watch Monty Python and the holy Grail. Must have made us watch it 20 times per year. I do not think he was a believer at all.
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18-10-2019, 13:41   #909
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When I was collecting consecrated hosts and performing experiments on them one of the experiments I did was to bring normal and consecrated ones to priests to see if they could identify which was which.
You'll be telling us next that there's no wine in Wine Gums.
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18-10-2019, 13:42   #910
Wanderer78
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You'll be telling us next that there's no wine in Wine Gums.
dont be making such stupid statements, ffs, its even in the name!
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18-10-2019, 13:46   #911
Seanachai
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I don't believe in an overarching personal god, at least not in the conventional sense, I don't see it as a requirement for existence. People can be hung up on the ingrained concept of this god and throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to any existence beyond the material world because of anger towards the horrors that can happen here.

Even if we manage to create devices that find other dimensions and evidence of consciousness beyond death, science will probably never give us an explanation as to how everything came from nothing. In my opinion the best interface we have to explore these mysteries is our own consciousness and direct experience, it used to be known as noetic science.

This does involve a level of discipline and devotion that not a lot of people have any time for these days though. Psychedelics are a short cut but they can be dangerous, for some more so than others. It is interesting that there's a high degree of correlation between psychedelic experiences and very little subjects report encountering a personal god, it's more often than not an experience of absolute consciousness that resonates with the Brahman of Hinduism.

There is also the concept of the 'Demiurge' in gnostic teachings which is basically a false reflection of the divine principle, it is held responsible for creating the material universe.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Demiurge

Old Bob gives some good insight on exploring the mysteries in a systematic rather than belief-based fashion.

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18-10-2019, 14:17   #912
nozzferrahhtoo
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You'll be telling us next that there's no wine in Wine Gums.
Hell no. I pursue truth, but I would not commit blasphemy

Sure many people would testify to there being wine in there, so I am sure their testimony is evidence.
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19-10-2019, 10:44   #913
realitykeeper
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Again, until you show there IS a next one, you have not shown there is anything to understand. So asserting people do not understand it, is fantasy on your part.

Have you any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to suggest human experience, subjectivity, or consciousness survives the death of the brain?

Or do you just have more of this "I just know it" to offer?
You will die. No arguments there. What comes next will last forever. Even if you think nothing comes next but you don`t know for sure, then you are gambling with your eternal destiny for the sake of a few decades in this life and all because you do not want the discipline the gospels impose.
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19-10-2019, 12:31   #914
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You will die. No arguments there. What comes next will last forever. Even if you think nothing comes next but you don`t know for sure, then you are gambling with your eternal destiny for the sake of a few decades in this life and all because you do not want the discipline the gospels impose.
And just to be clear, your 'just and fair God' has no problem with condemning people to an eternal destiny of endless pain, agony and torture just because they happen to be born in a Muslim country or a Sikh country or an atheist family for their few decades - have I got that right?

And same if they happen to be born gay or plan the number of kids in their family or if they are a bit slothful?
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19-10-2019, 12:51   #915
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You will die. No arguments there. What comes next will last forever. Even if you think nothing comes next but you don`t know for sure, then you are gambling with your eternal destiny for the sake of a few decades in this life and all because you do not want the discipline the gospels impose.
Eternal destiny, what proof do you have of such a thing?

We have proof that we die, and the body decays, we have proof that our thoughts & emotions are a product of the brain. As the brain stops working when we die, and like the rest of the body decays. There is far more evidence to confirm or suggest that this life is all there is.

Extreme claims, require extra ordinary evidence to support their claims. The burden of proof lies with those making claims of eternal destiny.

Last edited by Tired Gardener; 19-10-2019 at 13:33.
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