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Beef Data Genomics Programme (2015-2020)

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24567…18

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    #32
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    I was 100% not going ahead with the scheme until a lad last week i was talking to said he was going to go in , put all the payment into the credit union for the duration of the scheme and wing it in the hope that they wouldn't look for the money back if he didn't quite hit the criteria by the end , and if they did he could hand back the money otherwise it would go into kids college fund .
    Im half thinking now i should chance a half assed attempt like that aswell but I don't know


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    #33
    Bellview
    Registered Users Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭Bellview


    Bullocks wrote: »
    I was 100% not going ahead with the scheme until a lad last week i was talking to said he was going to go in , put all the payment into the credit union for the duration of the scheme and wing it in the hope that they wouldn't look for the money back if he didn't quite hit the criteria by the end , and if they did he could hand back the money otherwise it would go into kids college fund .
    Im half thinking now i should chance a half assed attempt like that aswell but I don't know
    since commitment given that they will not take penalties from other payments... does that mean that they may be unable to recover monies if we breach the rules?:confused:


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    #34
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    Bellview wrote: »
    since commitment given that they will not take penalties from other payments... does that mean that they may be unable to recover monies if we breach the rules?:confused:

    I didn't know that but as yer man said "its hard to take feathers from a frogs hole !"


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    #35
    Farrell
    Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Farrell


    tanko wrote: »
    Good question, I think the boards in marts are going to show star ratings for heifers, I don't know if they've started doing this yet. A buyer would be finding out at the last minute tho.
    If buying off farm the seller should have them.
    I think a heifer has to be genotyped as a 4/5 star heifer to qualify for the scheme. Who knows how genotyping will affect star ratings. If 4/5 star heifers start going down to 2/3 stars there'll be fun then.
    Think the proposed mart boards will only show for icbf members only.
    Probably an incentive to get all farmers signed up


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    #36
    High bike
    Registered Users Posts: 2,279 ✭✭✭High bike


    Got my list to be genotype do today,cover letter says if I consider any of the cows to be too dangerous to tag I should contact icbf about getting a replacement for her.As it happens one of the chosen cows is a nightmare to handle but I'm wondering if I report this to them will it affect her star rating?


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    #37
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    High bike wrote: »
    Got my list to be genotype do today,cover letter says if I consider any of the cows to be too dangerous to tag I should contact icbf about getting a replacement for her.As it happens one of the chosen cows is a nightmare to handle but I'm wondering if I report this to them will it affect her star rating?

    Tell the truth High bike and dont be withholding information!


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    #38
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Got my list today as well. I might leave it till the next TB test though.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #39
    Bellview
    Registered Users Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭Bellview


    Bullocks wrote: »
    Tell the truth High bike and dont be withholding information!

    that icbf docile metric drives me mad :confused:, I slaughtered a cow this year for that exact reason, and she was a nut job and she was rated quite while I have ones that you could sit on their backs and they are rated nutters... if you keep any daughters they will be impacted more that the cow herself, if she is not incalf slaughter her and say nothing:D..


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    #40
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    Bellview wrote: »
    that icbf docile metric drives me mad :confused:, I slaughtered a cow this year for that exact reason, and she was a nut job and she was rated quite while I have ones that you could sit on their backs and they are rated nutters... if you keep any daughters they will be impacted more that the cow herself, if she is not incalf slaughter her and say nothing:D..

    No ICBF wouldn't be wrong , maybe you just didn't know how to handle her !


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    #41
    Limestone Cowboy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Limestone Cowboy


    Bellview wrote: »
    that icbf docile metric drives me mad :confused:, I slaughtered a cow this year for that exact reason, and she was a nut job and she was rated quite while I have ones that you could sit on their backs and they are rated nutters... if you keep any daughters they will be impacted more that the cow herself, if she is not incalf slaughter her and say nothing:D..
    I always thought it was one of the more accurate parts of it to be honest. My current bill is 5* docility and the previous one was only 1* and there is a massive difference in the calves out of them. No more nut jobs.


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    #42
    High bike
    Registered Users Posts: 2,279 ✭✭✭High bike


    Bullocks wrote: »
    Tell the truth High bike and dont be withholding information!
    Like everyone else is it bullocks????


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    #43
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    High bike wrote: »
    Like everyone else is it bullocks????

    Haha , exactly !


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    #44
    Bellview
    Registered Users Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭Bellview


    Bullocks wrote: »
    No ICBF wouldn't be wrong , maybe you just didn't know how to handle her !

    I let that to the vet... When it came to scanning we just passed her by as a nut job you were guaranteed she would be in calf every year... I have her last daughter for sale now 5 stars and rated docile.......first to see will buy


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    #45
    kollegeknight
    Registered Users Posts: 3,220 ✭✭✭kollegeknight


    It is very objective alright,

    I rated the bull as 3/5 one year for docility because I couldn't jump on his back as another poster said but the vet said he is as quiet a bull as he met. He is grand like but I wouldn't trust any bull.

    When I see some neighbours Bulls, mine is like a kitten.

    Cows are grand and quiet here so I rated them 5/5 but they can have their days like all of us.


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    #46
    Bellview
    Registered Users Posts: 2,678 ✭✭✭Bellview


    kollegeknight wrote: »
    It is very objective alright,

    I rated the bull as 3/5 one year for docility because I couldn't jump on his back as another poster said but the vet said he is as quiet a bull as he met. He is grand like but I wouldn't trust any bull.

    When I see some neighbours Bulls, mine is like a kitten.

    Cows are grand and quiet here so I rated them 5/5 but they can have their days like all of us.

    I missed that self certification note in the post... since docility is in the star weightings it would definitely help if we could rate them all 5's to help the grant


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    #47
    The man in red and black
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭The man in red and black


    Could anyone tell me where can you find the actual reports on the genotyping results? Or is that where they came up with the Euro-stars report they now have? The father is not in herdplus unfortunately and there's no point joining it till one of us is there more to actually use the info. We obviously therefore never had stars on the cows up to now, just wondering are they based on the genotyping or just the data accumulated over the years, breeding etc?

    I've realised it's going to be tricky to get the cows up to the 4-5 stars. I thought we were flying having a bull rated 5 stars for Replacement and Terminal for the last 3 years...sure enough when they re-did the weighting this Spring he dropped to 3 stars for replacement so anything sired by him is scoring poorly but all the old 6-10 year old cows are coming in as 4-5 stars. That said alot of them would be 10-30% Holstein from our years transitioning from dairy to sucklers but annoying that all the young stock are scoring 1-2 stars. Hopefully as they have more calves over the next couple of years and have more data they will pick up a few stars.

    New bull is a gamble, 5 stars for replacement but only 21% reliability! It's worse than roulette! My father did better when he just picked out the bulls by eyeballing them! I hope this lad holds his stars or it'll start to get tight coming up to 2020! Fingers crossed he breeds some great 4-5 star heifers off of the old lady's. One girl still knocking around on her 15th calf! She owes us nothing.


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    #48
    MollyRo
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭MollyRo


    The man in red and black wrote: »
    Could anyone tell me where can you find the actual reports on the genotyping results? Or is that where they came up with the Euro-stars report they now have? The father is not in herdplus unfortunately and there's no point joining it till one of us is there more to actually use the info. We obviously therefore never had stars on the cows up to now, just wondering are they based on the genotyping or just the data accumulated over the years, breeding etc?

    I've realised it's going to be tricky to get the cows up to the 4-5 stars. I thought we were flying having a bull rated 5 stars for Replacement and Terminal for the last 3 years...sure enough when they re-did the weighting this Spring he dropped to 3 stars for replacement so anything sired by him is scoring poorly but all the old 6-10 year old cows are coming in as 4-5 stars. That said alot of them would be 10-30% Holstein from our years transitioning from dairy to sucklers but annoying that all the young stock are scoring 1-2 stars. Hopefully as they have more calves over the next couple of years and have more data they will pick up a few stars.

    New bull is a gamble, 5 stars for replacement but only 21% reliability! It's worse than roulette! My father did better when he just picked out the bulls by eyeballing them! I hope this lad holds his stars or it'll start to get tight coming up to 2020! Fingers crossed he breeds some great 4-5 star heifers off of the old lady's. One girl still knocking around on her 15th calf! She owes us nothing.

    I'm not fully sure how it all works with regard to the bulls but from what I can see with the genotyping/ star ratings the mother carries alot of the weight with replacement heifers. If they are a high rating 5 star cow they will likely have a 4/5 star daughter. we had a low rated replacement bull but 5 star terminal, their daughters have rated very well. Its early days in terms of buying a bull I feel, I am actually beginning to think that there will be a big push towards AI with sucklers, particularly since there is a section on the system that will conveniently point you in the right direction of an AI bull. In an ideal world thats fine but its too hard to manage when we all work full time as well.

    Another question I have is will the heifers ratings drop along with the bulls ratings when they drop??


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    #49
    MollyRo
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭MollyRo


    The man in red and black wrote: »
    Could anyone tell me where can you find the actual reports on the genotyping results? Or is that where they came up with the Euro-stars report they now have? The father is not in herdplus unfortunately and there's no point joining it till one of us is there more to actually use the info. We obviously therefore never had stars on the cows up to now, just wondering are they based on the genotyping or just the data accumulated over the years, breeding etc?

    I've realised it's going to be tricky to get the cows up to the 4-5 stars. I thought we were flying having a bull rated 5 stars for Replacement and Terminal for the last 3 years...sure enough when they re-did the weighting this Spring he dropped to 3 stars for replacement so anything sired by him is scoring poorly but all the old 6-10 year old cows are coming in as 4-5 stars. That said alot of them would be 10-30% Holstein from our years transitioning from dairy to sucklers but annoying that all the young stock are scoring 1-2 stars. Hopefully as they have more calves over the next couple of years and have more data they will pick up a few stars.

    New bull is a gamble, 5 stars for replacement but only 21% reliability! It's worse than roulette! My father did better when he just picked out the bulls by eyeballing them! I hope this lad holds his stars or it'll start to get tight coming up to 2020! Fingers crossed he breeds some great 4-5 star heifers off of the old lady's. One girl still knocking around on her 15th calf! She owes us nothing.

    I'm not fully sure how it all works with regard to the bulls but from what I can see with the genotyping/ star ratings the mother carries alot of the weight with replacement heifers. If they are a high rating 5 star cow they will likely have a 4/5 star daughter. we had 3 star rated replacement bull and 3 star terminal, their daughters have rated very well. Its early days in terms of buying a bull I feel, I am actually beginning to think that there will be a big push towards AI with sucklers, particularly since there is a section on the system that will conveniently point you in the right direction of an AI bull. In an ideal world thats fine but its too hard to manage when we all work full time as well.

    Another question I have is will the heifers ratings drop along with the bulls ratings when they drop??


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    #50
    Milked out
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Milked out


    MollyRo wrote: »
    I'm not fully sure how it all works with regard to the bulls but from what I can see with the genotyping/ star ratings the mother carries alot of the weight with replacement heifers. If they are a high rating 5 star cow they will likely have a 4/5 star daughter. we had 3 star rated replacement bull and 3 star terminal, their daughters have rated very well. Its early days in terms of buying a bull I feel, I am actually beginning to think that there will be a big push towards AI with sucklers, particularly since there is a section on the system that will conveniently point you in the right direction of an AI bull. In an ideal world thats fine but its too hard to manage when we all work full time as well.

    Another question I have is will the heifers ratings drop along with the bulls ratings when they drop??

    A bulls rating will go up and down as more info comes in from its relatives and progeny so it's daughters and sons may go up or down as well. If u are on herd plus and you get an animal genotyped it will appear as a report in the site. There is a genomic section there, that's how it worked for dairy anyway.


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    #51
    MollyRo
    Registered Users Posts: 37 ✭MollyRo


    Milked out wrote: »
    A bulls rating will go up and down as more info comes in from its relatives and progeny so it's daughters and sons may go up or down as well. If u are on herd plus and you get an animal genotyped it will appear as a report in the site. There is a genomic section there, that's how it worked for dairy anyway.

    Yeah I get that alright, I guess its early days for the scheme, I think AI may be what we need to look at when it comes to breeding replacements... I really don't want the hassle of it, for now I'll just hope that the bulls ratings remain the same or increase, his calves are pretty impressive and are thriving though...


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    #52
    Milked out
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Milked out


    Bellview wrote: »
    I missed that self certification note in the post... since docility is in the star weightings it would definitely help if we could rate them all 5's to help the grant

    That would defeat the purpose if ye want to get more accurate info. Get the point alright that if lads are looking to get money from the scheme not much to stop them from putting in wrong info to make it look better but as I assume the stars will go up and down based on more info than just one animal so it may not effect the star rating of your cows much at all.


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    #53
    Milked out
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Milked out


    MollyRo wrote: »
    Yeah I get that alright, I guess its early days for the scheme, I think AI may be what we need to look at when it comes to breeding replacements... I really don't want the hassle of it, for now I'll just hope that the bulls ratings remain the same or increase, his calves are pretty impressive and are thriving though...

    I guess at the end of the day your business is getting a calf out of the cow and off the farm in order to make as much profit as possible. If ye have a system that's working for u and making u money I wouldn't change drastically to fall in line with a scheme unless payment from it increases your bottom line. If small changes required go for it by all means as the more people partaking and the more info comes in the more relevant star rarings will become. Use it to make yourself more profitable for you and improve your herd but like that it will come down to you recording your own info and then using star ratings to join in. I've had cows with high ebi.s that I've culled and cows with low ebi still here after 14 years that are super.
    Don't know in and outs of scheme but it appears to be using payment to entice e lads to make changes to herds solely on paper genetic info as opposed to using both that and physical info on the ground in each herd. It would be fine bar the reliability figures are too low for those kinda changes. I use genomic bulls here but a minimum of 5 or 6 and and few proven ones as well. Hard to do if you don't have numbers id imagine you would have to use proven sires with lower numbers imo


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    #54
    sako 85
    Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭sako 85


    This may have been answered previously but I can't see it here. If I increase my cow number in 2016, will I be paid for every cow calving so long as I have the required area? Or is the maximum I can be paid, the number of cows I had calving in the reference year?

    It appears to me from reading the questions and answers page on the departments website that I am allowed increase cow numbers above that of the reference year so long as I have the required area.

    Can you increase cow numbers during the six year programme?
    Yes, but payment on this Programme will be restricted to the maximum payable area.


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    #55
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,618 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    sako 85 wrote: »
    This may have been answered previously but I can't see it here. If I increase my cow number in 2016, will I be paid for every cow calving so long as I have the required area? Or is the maximum I can be paid, the number of cows I had calving in the reference year?

    It appears to me from reading the questions and answers page on the departments website that I am allowed increase cow numbers above that of the reference year so long as I have the required area.

    Can you increase cow numbers during the six year programme?
    Yes, but payment on this Programme will be restricted to the maximum payable area.
    I think you have answered it yourself, whatever payment you get is based on what cows you had last year, unless force majure case applies.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #56
    sako 85
    Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭sako 85


    thanks for that Blue, I just wanted to confirm as I heard so many conflicting views.


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    #57
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭tanko


    Had cows and calves in the yard for worm/fluke treatment and pnuemonia vaccination over the weekend and got genomic tagging done and posted away. Some animals have four tags now, not much room for any more.


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    #58
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    tanko wrote: »
    Had cows and calves in the yard for worm/fluke treatment and pnuemonia vaccination over the weekend and got genomic tagging done and posted away. Some animals have four tags now, not much room for any more.

    If they are like the last genomic tags I used they wont have 4 tags for long :D


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    #59
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,208 ✭✭✭tanko


    Bullocks wrote: »
    If they are like the last genomic tags I used they wont have 4 tags for long :D

    You mustn't be tagging them properly:P. I never thought to check if the cows that got the genomic tags last year still have them.


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    #60
    porter shark
    Registered Users Posts: 198 ✭✭porter shark


    Is it true that a cow in the scheme is only supposed to calf five times in her lifetime?


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    #61
    manjou
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭manjou


    tanko wrote: »
    Had cows and calves in the yard for worm/fluke treatment and pnuemonia vaccination over the weekend and got genomic tagging done and posted away. Some animals have four tags now, not much room for any more.

    They will have to give stars for cows with bigger ears to cope


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