What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Kivaro · 07-01-2021 5:12pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Where are you getting that statistic exactly? I’ll be honest and admit that due to sheer laziness on my part .....

You say that Africans are only 14% unemployed here, and then cite "Racism and discrimination may be major causes of African labour market disadvantage in Ireland." May? Is this conclusive proof? This is the same excuse used by academics for the poor uptake of employment for that same group all over Europe. When you have existing reports showing that less than 50% are working, then there is a majority not working.

Kivaro · 07-01-2021 5:25pm

ebayissues wrote: »

Seems today is international migrants day. The government has publisheda couple of reports on integration.

Here is the link below. The one to open is Monitoring Report on Integration. I've had a quick scan and its worth a read

https://www.gov.ie/en/publications/

So after chasing down that document, we find that 44.7% of people with African origin were employed in Ireland in 2017. This was, by far, the lowest percentage of employment for any group in Ireland on that report.

The full report can be found at the ESRI here.

Jane98 · 07-01-2021 8:51pm

Wibbs wrote: »

I dunno where the hell they're getting only 14% unemployed when they also say: In 2017 less than 45 per cent of Africans in the 15-64 year age group were employed only 53 per cent of them were economically active and low labour force participation rates among Africans. Going by that stat 55 weren't employed and 47% weren't economically active, IE not employed/employers/self employed/earning money from other sources.

Does that mean that only 14% were claiming unemployment benefit, 45% working and the rest 41% perhaps claiming disability benefit or some other social welfare benefit, be it pension, single carers or one of the many other benefits

mynamejeff · 07-01-2021 9:24pm

Here is a document from the most racist of origins UCD

https://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publications/workingpapers/gearywp201816.pdf

claims 60 percent unemployment in adult Africans and not just in the irish labour market either

O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. They also suffer much higher rates of unemployment than the national average. The pattern is similar in other European labour markets

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/discrimination-at-work-you-see-africans-with-phds-driving-taxis-1.3692510

More than 63 per cent of Congolese were out of work in 2016, the highest of any group. The unemployment rate among Nigerians was 43 per cent.

apparently its Irish people fault that Africans don't work and contribute in Ireland according to this

Mike Murdock · 08-01-2021 4:51pm

mynamejeff wrote: »

Here is a document from the most racist of origins UCD

https://www.ucd.ie/geary/static/publications/workingpapers/gearywp201816.pdf

claims 60 percent unemployment in adult Africans and not just in the irish labour market either

O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. They also suffer much higher rates of unemployment than the national average. The pattern is similar in other European labour markets

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/discrimination-at-work-you-see-africans-with-phds-driving-taxis-1.3692510

More than 63 per cent of Congolese were out of work in 2016, the highest of any group. The unemployment rate among Nigerians was 43 per cent.

apparently its Irish people fault that Africans don't work and contribute in Ireland according to this

That bastion of all things racist, University College London released a study back in 2014 that found that between 1995-2011, Non-EU Migrants cost the Exchequer there £120 billion more for public services and State handouts than they paid in taxes.

mynamejeff · 08-01-2021 5:32pm

Mike Murdock wrote: »

That bastion of all things racist, University College London released a study back in 2014 that found that between 1995-2011, Non-EU Migrants cost the Exchequer there £120 billion more for public services and State handouts than they paid in taxes.

im shocked

look at my shocked face

:eek:

Mike Murdock · 08-01-2021 8:43pm

mynamejeff wrote: »

im shocked

look at my shocked face

:eek:

But they are going to "pay for our pensions".

So we are told.

Hellokitty1212 · 08-01-2021 8:49pm

Mike Murdock wrote: »

But they are going to "pay for our pensions".

So we are told.

Maybe the hardworking scientists and engineers will come later ???

/sarcasm

PearseCork92 · 08-01-2021 8:55pm

Mike Murdock wrote: »

That bastion of all things racist, University College London released a study back in 2014 that found that between 1995-2011, Non-EU Migrants cost the Exchequer there £120 billion more for public services and State handouts than they paid in taxes.

This has been well-known by governments in the developed world for a long time.

Special interest groups however are in-thrall to the idea of an inexhaustible supply of cheaper and cheaper labour.

Tea drinker · 09-01-2021 12:47am

Mike Murdock wrote: »

But they are going to "pay for our pensions".

So we are told.

maybe you misheard? seems they are getting paid our pensions :pac:

Geuze · 09-01-2021 3:19am

I don't think any debate about whether non-EU immigrants are net contributors or net beneficiaries is relevant.

I ask the question - does our labour market need non-EU workers?

Have we major labour shortages?

Can the EU labour market meet our skills needs?

As far as I can see, other than very specific and limited areas, there is no need for any non-EU workers.

Therefore, I do not see any need for any large-scale non-EU immigration.

Arthur Daley · 09-01-2021 5:43am

Spot on. And democratically the only approval given was for a shared labour market with other EU states.

Any other position was not put to the electorate (multiple times for a change of such huge importance!) and is fundamentally undemocratic.

ILoveYourVibes · 09-01-2021 6:41am

Geuze wrote: »

I ask the question - does our labour market need non-EU workers?

Yes.

Have we major labour shortages?

Can the EU labour market meet our skills needs?

We do.

It can't . And studies have shown it cannot do so permanently. As in we can't seem to get a lot of Highly skilled professionals from Europe to stay here. They come for a year or so then leave.

The main skill shortages are in the following

IT (permanent)

Science and Engineering. (permanent)

Health Sciences. (permanent)

Construction (tending towards more temporary jobs)

The EU provides mainly seasonal workers who do not stay. They might come for a few months a few years etc. But these are lower skilled jobs usually ..(think fruit pickers etc).

Economies in EU countries partic like poland etc have been picking up and while wages are lower cost of living is lower.

We are less attractive.

Several Irish businesses now hunt globally for skills ...and they are looking for skills specifically not just any workers for a low wage.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/skills-shortage-sends-irish-employers-on-global-hunt-for-staff-1.3749377?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Feconomy%2Fskills-shortage-sends-irish-employers-on-global-hunt-for-staff-1.3749377

Skills shortage sends Irish employers on global hunt for staff

Whether we could do a better job of training people I can't answer for you.

Kivaro · 09-01-2021 12:08pm

Geuze wrote: »

I don't think any debate about whether non-EU immigrants are net contributors or net beneficiaries is relevant.

I ask the question - does our labour market need non-EU workers?

Have we major labour shortages?

Can the EU labour market meet our skills needs?

As far as I can see, other than very specific and limited areas, there is no need for any non-EU workers.

Therefore, I do not see any need for any large-scale non-EU immigration.

Indeed, even if you just look at the sizeable unemployment rates among young people in Spain (30% to 40% for the last 5 years), that one country could easily help with labour shortages in Ireland. From my experience of them, they are a conscientious and hard working bunch, so these are the groups that we should be encouraging to Ireland i.e. people who will contribute to the country and not end up in social housing and on welfare.

Mad_maxx · 09-01-2021 12:53pm

Kivaro wrote: »

Indeed, even if you just look at the sizeable unemployment rates among young people in Spain (30% to 40% for the last 5 years), that one country could easily help with labour shortages in Ireland. From my experience of them, they are a conscientious and hard working bunch, so these are the groups that we should be encouraging to Ireland i.e. people who will contribute to the country and not end up in social housing and on welfare.

never mind Spain , South America is full of people who would easily blend in well , take Argentina as a prime example

Mike Murdock · 09-01-2021 12:54pm

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yes.

We do.

It can't . And studies have shown it cannot do so permanently. As in we can't seem to get a lot of Highly skilled professionals from Europe to stay here. They come for a year or so then leave.

The main skill shortages are in the following

IT (permanent) - Highly skilled, immediate contribution to the tax take

Science and Engineering. (permanent) Highly skilled, immediate contribution to the tax take

Health Sciences. (permanent) Highly skilled, immediate contribution to the tax take

Construction (tending towards more temporary jobs)Skilled trade, immediate contribution to the tax take

Whether we could do a better job of training people I can't answer for you.

I don't think anyone here is saying slam the door shut on Non-EU migration. What they are saying is focus on getting skilled people that contribute to the tax take immediately.

Mad_maxx · 09-01-2021 2:44pm

Mike Murdock wrote: »

I don't think anyone here is saying slam the door shut on Non-EU migration. What they are saying is focus on getting skilled people that contribute to the tax take immediately.

Other than making progressives feel good ,what is the point of immigration from the third world?

We should be involved in an international plan to improve the likes of Africa and contribute but this population transfer policy serves no one well

Eric Cartman · 09-01-2021 2:45pm

Mike Murdock wrote: »

But they are going to "pay for our pensions".

So we are told.

Non EU migrants will never pay our pensions, every one of them that comes in brings the pension funding cliff closer and closer.

biko · 09-01-2021 4:28pm

A Danish case

By feigning illness Hussein Abbas (53yo) tricked his integrated wife Huda (27yo) and their son Azad (9yo) back to Syria where he had returned with Danish assistance.

Once they were there he killed them both and claimed innocence.

His defence was "she had become too Danish".

https://www.bt.dk/krimi/faengsel-paa-livstid-for-drabene-paa-huda-og-lille-azad

Eric Cartman · 09-01-2021 4:31pm

biko wrote: »

A Danish case

By feigning illness Hussein Abbas (53yo) tricked his integrated wife Huda (27yo) and their son Azad (9yo) back to Syria where he had returned with Danish assistance.

Once they were there he killed them both and claimed innocence.

His defence was "she had become too Danish".

https://www.bt.dk/krimi/faengsel-paa-livstid-for-drabene-paa-huda-og-lille-azad

There are just some cultures we shouldnt be importing

Hellokitty1212 · 09-01-2021 4:32pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There are just some cultures we shouldnt be importing

Absolutely.

biko · 09-01-2021 4:37pm

Here's a fun activity, google "had become too Danish", there are more cases.

Fortunately "had become too Irish" doesn't have any stories of children abducted or killed, but it's just a matter of time.

biko · 09-01-2021 4:40pm

https://library.oapen.org/bitstream/handle/20.500.12657/35241/340089.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Aisha was forcibly removed from her Norwegian foster parents and returned to her own family so that she could grow up in her ‘own culture’.
The result was that her parents brought her back to their country of origin in the Middle East, where a marriage she did not want awaited her.
Sara was killed by her own brother because she had become ‘too Swedish’.
Anna escaped from her parents to avoid forced marriage and abuse.
Noreen was nearly killed by her relatives in Pakistan because she refused to marry a Pakistani relative.
Nadia was abducted to Morocco by her parents.

The recurring theme is the authorities’ lack of ability, or will, to recognise and do something about these kinds of female life histories – an impotence which in practice means that their rights as Norwegian (or Swedish) citizens are undermined.

The glory of the Western left inviting a culture that will literally kill its own children.

Hellokitty1212 · 09-01-2021 5:10pm

There’s a fundraiser on tv at the moment about sponsoring a girl - and all that they face; forced marriage, abuse etc.

Heartbreaking - and we signed up for a couple to try to help.

But why acknowledge that this is a thing and yet assume that it will end when the men get off the boats here ?

Sand · 09-01-2021 10:33pm

Mike Murdock wrote: »

I don't think anyone here is saying slam the door shut on Non-EU migration. What they are saying is focus on getting skilled people that contribute to the tax take immediately.

Only importing skilled people is just a poorly disguised way of saying no non-EU migration. At the end of the day, Ireland is a nation. Not a football team. Not a corporation. The aim isnt to headhunt the best global talent to achieve the best productivity for corporations. It is to be the political expression of the Irish people.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Other than making progressives feel good ,what is the point of immigration from the third world?

We should be involved in an international plan to improve the likes of Africa and contribute but this population transfer policy serves no one well

Why? Africans have natural resources the Irish can only dream of. Surely they should be improving their own countries before we need to chip in?

Sand · 09-01-2021 11:21pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If they’re asking about the benefits of immigration to a society, I can easily point to the fact that it drives innovation. If a person doesn’t favour innovation, then they’re going to see innovation as a negative aspect of immigration.

It doesn't drive innovation though, does it? In the 1960s the monocultural US had an ambitious space programme which drove high tech advancements and achieved a moon landing. Since then, as the US has grown increasingly diverse the space program has atrophied and for a long time they had to hitch a ride on Russian rocket launches. Culturally, the US has declined as well, with most of its cultural output being remakes of old movies and old media. US resources are increasingly diverted to maintain domestic peace between the ethnic groups in that economic zone, let alone anything innovative. As it stands, US "innovations" amount to little more than attempts by capital to circumvent existing laws and protections for ordinary people.

Maybe you admire that, but I don't.

Mass immigration is bad for the indigenous population because it’s mass immigration?

Exactly, now you understand. The key word is not immigration. It is mass. Immigration the indigenous people can assimilate. Mass immigration they cannot. Mass immigration is what creates multiculturalism.

If it were only numbers that matters to you, then you wouldn’t need to also shore up your lack of any point with the idea that child sexual exploitation is a national pastime among some migrant groups.

You're right - I shouldn't need to. It should be understood if you had the best interests of the indigenous people as a priority. But advocates of mass migration pretend there is no negative outcomes for the indigenous people. Extremely predictable outcomes like the UK grooming gangs are the **** I need to hold your nose in like a misbehaving puppy.

I did explain it? Because we’re morally and intellectually superior in every way! We have to put manners on the savages in order to make them more like us, and we do that by breaking their balls when the little bit of power we think we have over others goes to our heads.

Wow. Just wow. 19th century imperialist much?

I’m not discussing anything with a dictionary.

No, you're not. The dictionary always wins. That was rhetoric on my part.

09-01-2021 11:31pm

Sand wrote: »

Why? Africans have natural resources the Irish can only dream of. Surely they should be improving their own countries before we need to chip in?

The funny thing is that after 60 plus years of huge amounts of developmental aid to Africa for all manner of initiatives from education to business development, we're facing progressively increased immigration from African nations.

Foreign aid doesn't work. It's really that simple. Short term gains, but very few long term successes, and even those are tarnished by connected failures or even a worsening of the national situation. Putting money into Africa is a waste, because of the widespread corruption and inefficiencies within their own culture(s), and any suggestion of western culture being imported (as being more effective) is seen as imperialism, colonialism, etc and therefore increases the anger/bitterness that many have. It's a lose-lose situation. And then any state which manages to become a success becomes a target for their neighbors, internal political/ideological unrest, or decides to settle scores against one tribe or another ethnic grouping within their borders.

Refusing immigrants from Africa means that those migrants will be forced to either look elsewhere, or stay at home.. with the hope that they might seek reform and change within their countries. That reform is not going to happen if everyone who wants a different life, can just move off to Europe.

Mad_maxx wrote:

never mind Spain , South America is full of people who would easily blend in well , take Argentina as a prime example

I've been to Argentina... it's not all it's cracked up to be. Many wonderful people, and a lot of terrible people too. Great steaks. Gorgeous women.

The point is culture. Spanish, and those who have/had links with Spain, reflect a Hispanic culture which is very corrupt. Their perception of authority, the law, and other considerations is far different from ours. Ours being Northern European... Southern Europeans, like Spain and Italy are also very corrupt, and carry very different opinions about the place of people in society, and how/whether they should obey the laws, the same way we would.

I think people need to spend more time considering the effects of different cultures. Sure, we're all part of the EU now, and Spain is a western nation.. however, they're very different from us. We share some values and perspectives, but there are some gigantic differences too.

Spain is the lesser of two evils, since they're already part of the EU. Argentina, or any S.American nation brings with it a host of perspectives which many in Ireland would consider completely alien, and in some cases, offensive.

Kivaro wrote:

From my experience of them, they are a conscientious and hard working bunch, so these are the groups that we should be encouraging to Ireland

It really depends on where in Spain they're from. I did a stint working as a credit controller in Barcelona, and the Catalan culture isn't very nice once you get past the surface friendliness. They're a lot like the Chinese in many ways. They're always looking for an angle to get something, for nothing, from you. Lying is very common, as is the attitude towards most relationships being temporary (and for their benefit). Don't get me wrong.. I have many great friends who are Spanish, but let's not ignore the many problems within that country, which is reflected in the various peoples.

Still, I'd far prefer an influx of Spanish people, who, at least share some common culture with us, than more Africans, who don't.

Tea drinker · 09-01-2021 11:43pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

never mind Spain , South America is full of people who would easily blend in well , take Argentina as a prime example

We've hired guys from South America, Turkey recently. These guys are at the top of their game in technical stuff, and are working well, a real benefit.
Defo skilled guys still needed from outside the EU. We have zero or very minimal need for unskilled outside EU.
For Spain I'm not sure why unemployment stayed high maybe they aren't as quick as Irish to take a boat or plane. Spain youth unemployment was....55% in 2013, only 33% last year (I mean 2019!). Frightful stuff.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ESP/spain/unemployment-rate

Geuze · 10-01-2021 1:50am

Kivaro wrote: »

Indeed, even if you just look at the sizeable unemployment rates among young people in Spain (30% to 40% for the last 5 years), that one country could easily help with labour shortages in Ireland. From my experience of them, they are a conscientious and hard working bunch, so these are the groups that we should be encouraging to Ireland i.e. people who will contribute to the country and not end up in social housing and on welfare.

Yes, there are 16m unemployed people across the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/portlet_file_entry/2995521/3-08012021-AP-EN.pdf/fc360f72-ff0d-ecc0-df77-2bd9c7549825

Other than specific, narrow areas (e.g. medicine), I see no need for any non-EU immigration.

Also, we have 180,000 unemployed, and that excludes the impact of COVID.

If we include COVID, we have 20% unemployment.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mue/monthlyunemploymentdecember2020/

Given this massive pool of unemployed people on our doorstep, and across the EU, there is no need to look elsewhere.

Geuze · 11-01-2021 12:40am

Tea drinker wrote: »

We've hired guys from South America, Turkey recently. These guys are at the top of their game in technical stuff, and are working well, a real benefit.
Defo skilled guys still needed from outside the EU. We have zero or very minimal need for unskilled outside EU.

OK, but I then ask the question, if we have hundreds of thousands of unemployed people here, why aren't any of them developing the skills you need?

What is wrong with our skills base?

Is there a skills mis-match?

What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

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