What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

biko

I have shown above immigration to be a problem in Malmo, Sweden.
Perhaps assimilation would have been better rather than multiculturalism there but I doubt it would have improved things on a large scale.
Assimilation happens naturally when the trickle of immigrants is low.
Multiculturalism happens naturally when the flow of immigrants is large.

This page compares the two https://opinionfront.com/multiculturalism-vs-assimilation
It even mentions Sweden

✗ Critics argue that this policy prevents unity, since differences between cultures are encouraged.
✗ Multiculturalism may highlight the differences between groups, causing ethnic conflicts (such as the Sweden 2005 riots).

In my opinion, assimilation should be encouraged and multiculturalism discouraged.
And as said, with low immigration assimilation is natural.

Wibbs

rossie1977 wrote: »

And yet local police say crime has decreased...

Me. Earlier wrote: »

I had a look at your links(though some are behind a paywall so couldn't in some cases) and it's very much dependant on how one views the stats and many come from the same source repeated(after trump went on one of his usual muppet runs). Take sexual assault:



It's steadily gone up since 07, when in most countries in the west it's remained pretty static. Crime overall has gone up and people's fear of crime and not feeling safe in their neighbourhoods has also gone up. That's not up for debate so next we have to ask why. [and so forth. I won't rehash the full post, but you can read if you like]

bubblypop wrote: »

There is no problem I wish to solve with immigration, neither do I believe immigration is a problem.

We've gone from; well we can't give decent examples of the positives of multiculturalism beyond charity and exoticism to multiculturalism doesn't really exist at all.

I don't believe the usual chat on here from people about every other country is a failed society because of multiculturalism. It's just not true.

The societies overall aren't failed, however areas and some demographics within them, almost entirely urban have indeed failed and those failures extend most to the migrant populations and do so over generations. An underclass and more and different problems are imported on top of the native existing underclass and the existing problems. This is undeniable.

Again please point to any multicultural nation in Europe where those of African, or Romani, or ME origin and descent don't cluster near the bottom of the socioeconomic scale, who aren't more likely to be in receipt of social welfare and housing, who aren't more likely to figure in crime stats, who aren't more likely prone to ghettoisation. Just one will do.

In Germany it's Turks and Africans. In Portugal it's Africans and Roma(Ciganos). In the UK it's Africans and south Asians(specifically Pakistani). In Italy it's Africans and Roma. In Sweden it's African and ME. And so on. Different political cultures, different government responses and policies, different economic scales, different native cultures. Same results.

In Ireland it's been Travellers and in just the last two decades of experience of non EU multiculturalism it's Africans and to a lesser degree Roma. But apparently a) there's nothing to see here and b) we'll be somehow different and c) multiculturalism works.

Cordell

biko wrote: »

So Brits/Polish/Pakistani in Ireland are Irish? That doesn't sound right.

I agree on that it doesn't matter what country of origin people from other countries are, as long as there isn't more than 10% of them.

Even though I'm an immigrant myself I fully agree with this 10% or less immigration. I would like Ireland to keep it's irishness because even though I wasn't born and raised here it's still the country I chose to move in.
Now, in regards to being Irish I will never consider myself one (well, maybe a few percent there ) but if my children that grew up here and speak English natively will consider themselves Irish then I don't care how others feel about it or the whole born in the stable must be a horse thing.

biko

This Malmo woman interviewed in 2007 says "It feels like home". "It feel like Iraq or any other Arab country. I love living in Malmo."


This is multiculturalism - enclaves of people instead on a unified society.

rossie1977

Wibbs we know that Sweden continually changes their definitions of sexual assault and rape and if countries adopted the same definitions then you would see big increases

The 2005 law saw big increase in reports http://www.ipsnews.net/2011/02/rape-as-sweden-redefines-it-2/

The 2018 law will have similar effect https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/five-things-to-know-about-swedens-new-sexual-consent-law

Other crimes such as robbery, physical assault, murder have remained pretty static.

Thats a better graph



Btw Malmö is a really fun city to visit

biko

Let's look at attempted murder and murder.

The number of seized shooting weapons have increased from just under 400 in 2010 to over 800 in 2017. Weapons found on persons, in cars, in homes etc.

In 2017 there were 300 shooting incidents, resulting in 45 deaths.
Below is deaths over the last few years.


What happened? Did Sven Svensson and Anders Andersson suddenly go out and get guns and start firing on each other?
Or did New Swedes bring a mentality of violence with them?

Btw, Sweden also stands out in having a low resolution rate (25%) for gun homicides compared to Germany and Finland at 90%.


https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/antalet-vapen-och-skjutningar-okar-i-sverige
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_Sweden

McHardcore

rossie1977 wrote: »

Wibbs we know that Sweden continually changes their definitions of sexual assault and rape and if countries adopted the same definitions then you would see big increases

You are correct. Wibbs argument on Sweden:

Wibbs wrote: »

Take sexual assault:



It's steadily gone up since 07, when in most countries in the west it's remained pretty static. Crime overall has gone up and people's fear of crime and not feeling safe in their neighbourhoods has also gone up. That's not up for debate...

...has been copy and pasted so many times on forums that people have written blog posts debunking it. See below:




This analysis is very comprehensive, it can be read here: https://twosixteenhouse.wordpress.com/category/social-justice/

biko

biko wrote: »

Let's look at attempted murder and murder.

The number of seized shooting weapons have increased from just under 400 in 2010 to over 800 in 2017. Weapons found on persons, in cars, in homes etc.

In 2017 there were 300 shooting incidents, resulting in 45 deaths.
Below is deaths over the last few years.


What happened? Did Sven Svensson and Anders Andersson suddenly go out and get guns and start firing on each other?
Or did New Swedes bring a mentality of violence with them?

Btw, Sweden also stands out in having a low resolution rate (25%) for gun homicides compared to Germany and Finland at 90%.


https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/ost/antalet-vapen-och-skjutningar-okar-i-sverige
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_Sweden

Sorry, you realise that you have just attributed a rise in crime to 'new Swedes' with absolutely no evidence whatsoever?

What has caused the rise in gun crime in Ireland in the last 20 years?

biko

bubblypop wrote: »

What has caused the rise in gun crime in Ireland in the last 20 years?

I don't know but I have a feeling you will tell me it was inevitable and unpreventable.

Is it the same reason in Ireland as in Sweden?

In any country? Did they all have an increase in gun crime the last 20 years? Poland too? Croatia?


Edit - in Poland homicides and homicide-attempts using firearms decreased from 111 in 2002 to 25 in 2018.

One eyed Jack

Sand wrote: »

So your position is there is no benefit for indigenous people, but there is benefits for the indigenous people. Regardless of the merits of making that distinction what benefits are you claiming exist?

Worse than Cathy Newman. Can we at least get it straight that if one person asks a question about what benefits there are for them personally, there are none. If they’re asking about the benefits of immigration to a society, I can easily point to the fact that it drives innovation. If a person doesn’t favour innovation, then they’re going to see innovation as a negative aspect of immigration.

Sand wrote: »

My opposition to mass migration is based on the reality that its bad for the indigenous people. The values, or educational attainment or wealth of the peoples that are mass migrating into the homelands of the indigenous people - legally or illegally - doesn't matter. Numbers matter.

Mass immigration is bad for the indigenous population because it’s mass immigration? What kind of circular reasoning is that? If it were only numbers that matters to you, then you wouldn’t need to also shore up your lack of any point with the idea that child sexual exploitation is a national pastime among some migrant groups.

Sand wrote: »

You really do need to explain it, which you've failed to do again. Why do indigenous people have to create multicultural societies to mentor foreign groups in their 'values'?

I did explain it? Because we’re morally and intellectually superior in every way! We have to put manners on the savages in order to make them more like us, and we do that by breaking their balls when the little bit of power we think we have over others goes to our heads.

Sand wrote: »

Look, while your argument on this side issue helpfully highlights things, its still a side issue. Go look up mandate in the democratic or political sense and have your argument with the dictionary.

I’m not discussing anything with a dictionary. I’m discussing your idea that politicians get their mandate from the people with you, and I’m saying that if there were even a grain of truth in that, politicians would do what they’re told by the people. The fact that we’re expecting to see the numbers of immigrants coming into this country rise, what does that tell you about whether or not politicians are getting their mandate from the people?


Because it suggests to me that either -

(a) You’re wrong, and politicians are working off their own mandate and not listening to Irish people, or...

(b) You’re wrong, and Irish people don’t agree with you that immigration is bad for them, and politicians are working off the mandate given to them by the Irish people

CtevenSrowder

bubblypop wrote: »

No, I believe any issues are not caused by immigration, but rather by government policies.

Government policies such as, for example, allowing a large amount of immigration?

CtevenSrowder

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If they’re asking about the benefits of immigration to a society, I can easily point to the fact that it drives innovation.

So does War, we won't be adopting that as a policy though.

Being less facetious, what study showed that immigration drives innovation? I'd like to read as it seems a strange conclusion to me.

biko

biko wrote: »

I don't know but I have a feeling you will tell me it was inevitable and unpreventable.

Is it the same reason in Ireland as in Sweden?

In any country? Did they all have an increase in gun crime the last 20 years? Poland too? Croatia?


Edit - in Poland homicides and homicide-attempts using firearms decreased from 111 in 2002 to 25 in 2018.

Why would I say it was inevitable or unpreventable?

But I know what it wasn't, and it wasn't because of immigrants into the country.

You haven't said anything about your blatant statement that increases in crime in Sweden is due to their immigrants?
Can you see how this is prejudiced and discriminatory?

biko

bubblypop wrote: »

Why would I say it was inevitable or unpreventable?

But I know what it wasn't, and it wasn't because of immigrants into the country.

You haven't said anything about your blatant statement that increases in crime in Sweden is due to their immigrants?
Can you see how this is prejudiced and discriminatory?

From Daily News, one of the biggest papers in Sweden
https://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/vanligt-med-utlandsk-bakgrund-bland-unga-man-som-skjuter/

Out of 100 people linked to murder and attempted murder with firearms, 90 have at least one foreign-born parent

Another big paper, The Express
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/qs/gangen-inifran/brotten-skulderna-bakgrunden--sanningen-om-de-gangkriminella-i-stockholm/
Expressen's survey of the criminal networks shows that the vast majority have a foreign background

40.6 percent of the people are foreign-born
82.2 percent have two parents who are foreign-born.

If you count individual with at least one foreign-born parent, the number is 94.5 percent.

So the shootings and the criminal gangs are indeed linked to immigration.

biko

To pre-empt - "but immigrants live in deprived areas and are poor",

Those very areas now inhabited by almost 100% immigrants were previously inhabited by equally deprived and poor Swedes in the 70s/80s/90s.
But there were no shootings or burnings of cars in the 90s.


Btw, I am not saying immigrants automatically cause problems just because of skin colour or something. But the evidence is there something is different now.
The reason and the cure we can discuss more.

One eyed Jack

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

So does War, we won't be adopting that as a policy though.

Being less facetious, what study showed that immigration drives innovation? I'd like to read as it seems a strange conclusion to me.

Ohh I don’t think you’re being less facetious at all really :pac:

CtevenSrowder

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ohh I don’t think you’re being less facetious at all really :pac:

I'm not. When we discuss immigration, posters tend to be ok with highly skilled immigration. That's why the Australian points system often gets mentioned. The articles I found only refer to highly skilled immigrants boosting innovation, which isn't a huge surprise. It's those that are not highly skilled that tend to cause the aforementioned problems by Biko, particular from areas of the World with very different cultures to Western Europe..

https://migrationpolicycentre.eu/publication/do-migrants-spur-innovation-2/

One eyed Jack

biko wrote: »

To pre-empt - "but immigrants live in deprived areas and are poor",

Those very areas now inhabited by almost 100% immigrants were previously inhabited by equally deprived and poor Swedes in the 70s/80s/90s.
But there were no shootings or burnings of cars in the 90s.


Btw, I am not saying immigrants automatically cause problems just because of skin colour or something. But the evidence is there something is different now.
The reason and the cure we can discuss more.

That’s a fair point, but I’m not sure about the burning out cars bit meaning anything. According to the article you linked to, they appear to have noticed an increase in gang related crimes among immigrants, that is literally among immigrants themselves, in turf wars related to drugs (and I would suggest it’s entirely likely other types of criminal activity) -


When it comes to serious criminals, people from what we might call the underclass dominate. And the underclass in Swedish society is now very much made up of people with a foreign background, just as you will find," says Jerzy Sarnecki, professor at Stockholm University.

"This is how the Swedish underclass is now composed, at least in big cities. It is a little different with the ethnic composition outside the big cities.

"Poverty, social vulnerability, poor upbringing, broken families and traumatic experiences in childhood are important factors in terms of who becomes a criminal. It is not random that these people with foreign backgroundare recruited to the criminal networks," he says.

Sarnecki says that crime today is no worse than in the 1990s. But since the proportion of residents with foreign background has increased to 24 percent of Sweden's population and many of these live in the problem suburbs, they are now more often found in crime statistics," he says.


We see the same effects all across Europe - in the UK, in Germany, France and yes even Ireland. I would suggest though that it was always happening, only now it’s highlighted more in the media and online, and while there are a few reasons why migrants are over-represented in criminal statistics, one of the reasons they are over-represented is because of the fact they engage in criminal activity where they’re more likely to end up in conflict, dead or end up getting caught and doing time.

Wibbs

McHardcore wrote: »

You are correct. Wibbs argument on Sweden:

...has been copy and pasted so many times on forums that people have written blog posts debunking it. See below:

I hate to break it to you McHardcore, I got that graph from one of the links you posted. Your Sydney Morning Herald link. I even said that in the very first sentence of that post.

This analysis is very comprehensive, it can be read here: https://twosixteenhouse.wordpress.com/category/social-justice/

Anyone who is somewhat familiar with rational thinking will quickly come to the insight that these stats do not correspond to the number of crimes reported to the police, or even necessarily to the number of crimes actually committed. The graph shows that more people, for some reason or other, said that they had been a victim of a sexual crime when responding to a survey. The upwards trend could be influenced by any number of circumstances, such as increased awareness, increased outspokenness, decreased stigma, a wider and more proper understanding of what a sexual crime really is, etc.

So on the one hand - outside of migration/multiculturalism - we're told that rape and sexual assault is far more prevalent in western societies than is reported to authorities and we should believe people/women who say they've suffered from these crimes, but when it suits in the case of multiculturalism that goes out the window? Convenient.

From that same post which you left out.

Therefore importing lower skilled and educated immigrants will lead to a rise in numbers among the underclass and a higher occurrence of crime overall because of that. Indeed one report notes "It was more common that a victim was the child of migrants than the child of natural-born Swedes."

Going by that lower immigration equals lower sexual assaults over time.

The same report also goes on to say: Migrants are over-represented particularly in violent crimes and sexual violence.

"There are many reasons," says Professor Sarnecki. "Lower levels of education, problems with the modern, technological society, maybe even some cultural drawbacks."

and

The biggest criminological problem we have is gang violence in a few particular suburbs to our biggest cities. There was an increase in shootings – we didn't have this gun violence at all a few years ago.

"Our level of blatant violence is still much lower than other countries – the US or even Finland, but still much more than we had. These are people who came here as children or the children of immigrants. This is nothing to do with the influx of new immigrants to this country."

So because they're the next generation of immigrants leading to this new gun crime and not the newly minted migrants from Syria this means immigration isn't the problem, that multiculturalism works? If their parents hadn't been let into Sweden in the first place then Sweden would have fewer gun crimes(and sexual assaults) and a smaller underclass.

They acknowledge over representation in the above crimes by migrants and it seems their descendants), but it's not to do with migration but other reasons. Sure, but as my point has been all along why import more social problems, more of an underclass on top of existing native ones?

That question along with asking to point out any nation in Europe where the same narratives aren't played out and played out over generations remains unanswered, or what answers are forthcoming are nebulous ones involving more government resources applied. If there were solutions we'd see at least one or two nations doing far better than others, some nations where the same demographics aren't over represented in poverty, crime, unemployment and lower educational standards. But we quite simply and demonstrably don't.

biko

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s a fair point, but I’m not sure about the burning out cars bit meaning anything. According to the article you linked to, they appear to have noticed an increase in gang related crimes among immigrants, that is literally among immigrants themselves, in turf wars related to drugs (and I would suggest it’s entirely likely other types of criminal activity)

It used to be said that "sure they're only killing other criminals", just like the drug gangs here. But also like here normal people are getting hurt.
Sometimes by mistaken identity, but at least once a Swedish elderly man picked up a hand grenade that was lying on the ground, and it went off killing him.
In fact hand grenades are actually quite commonly used by Swedish criminals. n 2016 there were about almost 40 hand grenade attacks.

In fact there are so many explosions even BBC is wondering what the hell is going on.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

You haven't said anything about your blatant statement that increases in crime in Sweden is due to their immigrants?
Can you see how this is prejudiced and discriminatory?

McHardcore's links(which are pretty much the same story, a response to trump being an idiot, so reading one will suffice), actually acknowledge that there are increases in crime and much of it from the kids of previous generations of migrants, rather than the new arrivals. They argue that the jump in migrants from Syria etc didn't lead to higher crimes, but in their efforts to show this they also show that subsequent generations are more likely to figure in the crime stats. Socioeconomic pressures are given as reasons and they're good ones, however and yet again, if those migrants were never there in the first place or their numbers were smaller crimes and all the other social ills of that demographic would be lower for Sweden. Sweden has imported an extra underclass. Just like Germany, France, Portugal, Italy, Britain and now Ireland.

And yet again the narratives of some demographics are damned near the exact bloody same wherever you look in multicultural Europe. You don't see a Chinese underclass in Germany or a Russian one in France, or an Indian one in Norway. The demographics involved are remarkably consistent across the continent and indeed the rest of the western world.

Doctor Roast

One eyed Jack wrote: »

That’s a fair point, but I’m not sure about the burning out cars bit meaning anything. According to the article you linked to, they appear to have noticed an increase in gang related crimes among immigrants, that is literally among immigrants themselves, in turf wars related to drugs (and I would suggest it’s entirely likely other types of criminal activity) -


When it comes to serious criminals, people from what we might call the underclass dominate. And the underclass in Swedish society is now very much made up of people with a foreign background, just as you will find," says Jerzy Sarnecki, professor at Stockholm University.

"This is how the Swedish underclass is now composed, at least in big cities. It is a little different with the ethnic composition outside the big cities.

"Poverty, social vulnerability, poor upbringing, broken families and traumatic experiences in childhood are important factors in terms of who becomes a criminal. It is not random that these people with foreign backgroundare recruited to the criminal networks," he says.

Sarnecki says that crime today is no worse than in the 1990s. But since the proportion of residents with foreign background has increased to 24 percent of Sweden's population and many of these live in the problem suburbs, they are now more often found in crime statistics," he says.


We see the same effects all across Europe - in the UK, in Germany, France and yes even Ireland. I would suggest though that it was always happening, only now it’s highlighted more in the media and online, and while there are a few reasons why migrants are over-represented in criminal statistics, one of the reasons they are over-represented is because of the fact they engage in criminal activity where they’re more likely to end up in conflict, dead or end up getting caught and doing time.

That Sarnecki character is always wheeled out...

One eyed Jack

biko wrote: »

It used to be said that "sure they're only killing other criminals", just like the drug gangs here. But also like here normal people are getting hurt.
Sometimes by mistaken identity, but at least once a Swedish elderly man picked up a hand grenade that was lying on the ground, and it went off killing him.
In fact hand grenades are actually quite commonly used by Swedish criminals. n 2016 there were about almost 40 hand grenade attacks.

In fact there are so many explosions even BBC is wondering what the hell is going on.

And just like here there seems to be a considerable attempt on both sides to either play down the influence of ethnicity, or from the other side to play up the influence of ethnicity, whereas in reality I would suggest looking at the different categories of crimes, it’s a little bit from column A, and a little bit from column B. Snippets from both of these stories immediately raise an eyebrow -


Swedish police do not record or release the ethnicity of suspects or convicted criminals, but intelligence chief Linda H Straaf says many do share a similar profile. "They have grown up in Sweden and they are from socio-economically weak groups, socio-economically weak areas, and many are perhaps second- or third-generation immigrants," she says.

Ideological debates about immigration have intensified since Sweden took in the highest number of asylum seekers per capita in the EU during the migrant crisis of 2015. But Ms Straaf says it is "not correct" to suggest new arrivals are typically involved in gang networks. For many on the political right the explosions add fuel to their argument that Sweden has struggled to integrate migrants over the past two decades.

"In the future the situation might grow even bigger and even more problematic," says Mira Aksoy, who describes herself as a national conservative writer. "Since they are in the same area, they are in the same mindset. It's easy for them to connect to each other. They don't feel like they should become a part of Sweden and they stay in their segregated communities and start doing crimes." This kind of sentiment has grown in recent years, and the nationalist Sweden Democrats attracted 18% of the vote in 2018.

But Malin Bradshaw believes crime levels are more to do with income and social status.

“If you're anti-immigration it's so easy to angle everything as just 'oh it's the immigrants' fault', but the problem goes way beyond that.”

Amir Rostami says ethnicity rarely plays a big role in gang membership in Sweden. "When I interview gang members... the gang is their new country. The gang is their new identity." Christian Christensen, a journalism professor at Stockholm University, was himself surprised that some programmes paid little attention to the explosions, but feels there was extensive coverage in the big newspapers and on local news programmes. "The problem is that Sweden is used symbolically as proof of problems with immigration, proof of problems with leftist policies - unfairly in many cases," he argues. A recent study by polling company Kantar Sifo found that law and order was the most covered news topic on Swedish TV and radio and on social media.


But the same BBC ran this story a year earlier, so it’s not as though a year later they really can’t claim to know what’s going on?


Sweden's deadly problem with hand grenades

The rise in possession of hand grenades - mainly unused stock from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s - has come to symbolise Sweden's heated debate about violent crime as it heads towards an election in September. The rate of violent crime in the suburbs of Sweden's big cities has worsened in recent years, in what officials blame on rising gang-related crime. There were 306 shootings last year, which left 41 people dead. In 2011, there were 17 fatalities. The violence has turned some parts of Stockholm into "no-go zones" for paramedics, says Henrik Johansson, former head of Sweden's paramedics union. "People who live in these areas are very scared to call the police or get help from ambulances. They are scared about consequences for them and their families.” Police have acknowledged 60 or so "vulnerable areas" but reject the description of "no-go zones", a highly loaded term in Sweden.

After all, violent crime in Sweden and who is to blame for it has become an ideological battlefield. There is very little evidence that the migrants are to blame for a rise in violent crime. But Sweden - so often the place that countries have looked to follow on social policy - has not been so successful at integrating migrants over the past 20 years. A riot last year gave the impression of a Swedish dystopia in this neighbourhood made up mainly of immigrants and their children.

But some people here are angry at the way their neighbourhoods have been stigmatised, particularly by the country's right wing, and say they seem to be drifting away from mainstream Sweden. Hashim and Amin, both of Somali origin, helped set up a local anti-violence group. They accept that some types of violent crime are increasing but accuse the government of failing to invest in these areas. "Instead of finding a solution for the complex problems you call them a 'no-go zone'. It's just labelling it, making it easy for police to decide for people, instead of including people in the decisions," said Amin. Hashim added: "I don't think Swedish society is very open for immigrants, there's a lot of xenophobia."

Sweden's government denies it is immigrants who are causing the rise in crime. "The people who are causing problems for us today, the vast majority of them are born in Sweden, and that's not a notion of migration. That's an issue of integration and an issue of social inclusion," said Justice Minister Morgan Johansson, a centre-left Social Democrat. "One per cent of the population in our Swedish prisons are Syrians. One percent are from Afghanistan." The government insists it is tough on crime and tackling its causes. But as many people in Sweden become increasingly concerned about violence, it may be harder to convince them that accepting large numbers of migrants will not lead to further social problems down the line.

The justice minister accepts that violent crime will be an issue in September's election but would rather voters focus on Sweden's strong economic growth. And the far right here are looking to emulate the successes of other anti-immigration parties elsewhere in Europe.


Politicians want their countries economies to look good on the International stage, so while they are taking in more migrants, they’re not actually making any attempt to integrate migrants into society. They’re literally leaving them to their own devices because they don’t know what to do with them, and then playing the blame game when the product of their failure to provide support for migrants to integrate into their host societies manifests itself. Migrants aren’t doing anything the indigenous population weren’t doing already, and they’re integrating in Swedish or other European societies by doing exactly what the lower socioeconomic demographics among the population are doing in a sort of a “monkey see, monkey do” way. In order to address the issues related to crime the Government will have to make a better effort not just to tackle crime, but to support people so that they aren’t attracted to crime two and three generations from now.

I’ve witnessed it so many times now where people I grew up with even have taken over the family business as it were and are even expanding and including immigrants in their customer base. That’s the indigenous population are creating opportunities for immigrants to “better” themselves, and it’s not just drugs but prostitution too and a whole host of other issues, as opposed to what Government should have been doing differently 20 years ago.

The problems aren’t at all tied to any one ethnicity or any one ethnicity being more represented in statistics than another for any given crime or set of offences or antisocial behaviour (that’s literally just the way the statistics are being gathered and presented, but it’s impossible to quantify with any degree of certainty), but to suggest that the issues are the fault of, or are caused by multiculturalism itself is just untrue. The problems, which existed already, are caused by the lack of political will to address the problems, because politicians are more interested in the voting classes, not the disenfranchised classes.

rossie1977

Too much Swedish talk.

Why not compare crime rates in Ballyhaunis with similar sized towns in the west.

biko

I don't think there are any major integration problems in Ballyhaunis.
But even this article shows there can be problems

But large numbers of immigrants can lead to unease.
There’s a conviction among some in the town that Ballyhaunis has taken more than its fair share of refugees and asylum seekers.
A recent meeting of the town’s Parish Council saw members air that view.

Ballyhaunis saw a 38% surge in its population from 2006 to 2011.
This immigrant-driven hike hides the exodus of thousands of the town’s youth due to a lack of graduate employment.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/arid-20369099.html

AllForIt

rossie1977 wrote: »

Too much Swedish talk.

Why not compare crime rates in Ballyhaunis with similar sized towns in the west.

Let me tell you this true story.

I was sitting in a waiting room in Galway general hospital. Waiting beside me was an elderly couple from Lancashire, England. They are well into retirement age and the elderly guy looked just like those on Last of the Summer Wine, where he wore a long brown coloured coats, which I though was funny. I've never met anyone from Lanchashire before. Very sweet salt of the earth types, and certainly didn't come across as wealthy.

Anyway, got chatting. We both travelled from Mayo, but I've never been in Ballyhaunis and thus don't know much about it except my idea of it. He explained they recently moved to the west of Ireland but Ballyhaunis wasn't working out. They were having trouble with neighbours making noise late in the evening most nights. That shocked me, I though Ballyhaunis would be one of those places that's still in a time warp.

Turns out the problem was with economic migrants. Mostly lower social class Polish (I think he said Polish*) that ruined the whole area, up late drinking and having rows with added pumping music.

I felt so sorry for them. They asked me where would be better off living and that they had though of Westport but it was too expensive for them, which is why they decided on backwater (peaceful) Ballyhaunis in the first place. I didn't know where to look or what to say to be honest. I was shocked myself that somewhere like Ballyhaunis, somewhere kinda off the grid, had changed so much in this negative way.

This is the reality of what multiculturalism is giving us and I think it's very sad.

* By and large I don't have a problem with The Polish, but in my locality also there is a small element of them that are heavy drinkers, drink outdoors in full visibility (which really annoys me) and seem to spend every evening gathering together drinking in apartments. These are the one's that defiantly don't work and are having a much happier time of it in Ireland rather than in Poland.

Kivaro

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

I'm not. When we discuss immigration, posters tend to be ok with highly skilled immigration. That's why the Australian points system often gets mentioned. The articles I found only refer to highly skilled immigrants boosting innovation, which isn't a huge surprise. It's those that are not highly skilled that tend to cause the aforementioned problems by Biko, particular from areas of the World with very different cultures to Western Europe..

https://migrationpolicycentre.eu/publication/do-migrants-spur-innovation-2/

If we were getting immigrants with a basic skill level and a desire to contribute to Irish society, then there would hardly be an issue. However, with so many Africans and Roma (for example) coming to Ireland just so spend their entire lives on social welfare, abusing the generosity of the Irish State, and their higher-than-average involvement in criminality when they get here, then it seems unfair that workers in Ireland (both native and immigrant) have to support their lifestyles.

The problem with the pro-open-border proponents is that they conflate the two segments of immigrant, which is of course unfair. They try to claim that all migrants are beneficial to our a society, which is untrue. A simple example is when you look at African migrants where statistically the majority of them do not work in Ireland. They are net takers and not net contributors to our country.

One eyed Jack

Kivaro wrote: »

A simple example is when you look at African migrants where statistically the majority of them do not work in Ireland. They are net takers and not net contributors to our country.

Where are you getting that statistic exactly? I’ll be honest and admit that due to sheer laziness on my part I haven’t bothered to challenge many statements I know are just bullshìt, but that one keeps coming up, and I’m wondering where are people getting it from? According to an ESRI report published in November of 2018, the percentage of immigrants in Ireland of African origin who were unemployed, was 16%. Perhaps you have a different understanding of what is meant by “majority”?


African nationals reported the highest unemployment rate (14 per cent) of any group in 2016, and the lowest employment (52 per cent) and activity rates (61 per cent). These rates actually declined between 2016 and 2017, when most labour market outcomes for nearly every other nationality group improved. In 2017 less than 45 per cent of Africans in the 15-64 year age group were employed only 53 per cent of them were economically active. Unemployment among Africans increased from about 14 per cent in 2016 to 16 per cent in 2017, a worrying departure from the general trend towards declining unemployment.

Previous research on immigrants in the Irish labour market suggests that the main concentration of labour market disadvantage occurs among the Black African ethnic group and this group was also much more likely than either Irish natives or other immigrant groups to have experienced discrimination while looking for work (Kingston et al., 2013; McGinnity et al., 2017).27

Racism and discrimination may be major causes of African labour market disadvantage in Ireland. Michael (2016) details instances of workplace racism against Africans reported to ENAR Ireland’s iReport online reporting system.28 These racist incidents are perpetrated by both customers and colleagues, and are identified by the victims as significant barriers to employment and career progression (Michael, 2016). This analysis of Afrophobia points to broader problems of hostility and antipathy directed specifically at people who belong to the African diaspora in Ireland.

However, it is also necessary to consider the low labour force participation rates among Africans. Additional analysis of the 2016 and 2017 LFS (not shown) finds that the gender divide in activity rates for African nationals is particularly stark, and is even greater than the difference found among all immigrant groups combined, which is shown in Table 2.3. Analysis for the 2016 Integration Monitor showed that African families tend to have more children. Data from the Growing Up in Ireland survey showed that African mothers have low rates of employment and less favourable educational qualifications (McGinnity et al., 2014). Thus, it was suggested that the low employment rates among African women may be partly due to the high costs of childcare in Ireland, which may be unaffordable for African mothers with relatively large families, relatively low earning potential, and, because of their immigrant status, less recourse to relatives to provide childcare (O’Connell and Kenny, 2017). In addition to these compositional factors, Kingston et al. (2013) also suggested that the severe disadvantages suffered by Black African individuals may be due in part to the fact that many Black Africans in Ireland are refugees. This means they would have spent an extended period of time excluded from the labour market, and from participation in Irish society, as asylum seekers in the direct provision system, leading to a scarring effect on their future employment prospects. International research has shown the damaging effect of unemployment periods on subsequent labour market outcomes (Gangl, 2006). Analysis of data from the 2011 Census (O’Connell, forthcoming), which indicates that immigrants from countries with relatively large numbers of asylum seekers in Ireland tend to have lower employment rates, and higher unemployment rates, lends support to the contention that the exclusion of asylum seekers from the Irish labour market had lasting negative effects on the employment prospects of asylum seekers. However, that analysis also concludes that the African disadvantage is likely due to the combination of restrictive policies regarding the right to work on the part of the State, as well as discriminatory practices on the part of employers, based on statistical models that take account of both educational attainment and language ability (O’Connell, forthcoming).


Monitoring Report on Integration 2018

Wibbs

I dunno where the hell they're getting only 14% unemployed when they also say: In 2017 less than 45 per cent of Africans in the 15-64 year age group were employed only 53 per cent of them were economically active and low labour force participation rates among Africans. Going by that stat 55 weren't employed and 47% weren't economically active, IE not employed/employers/self employed/earning money from other sources. The refugee aspect is bloody suspect too as a large proportion would have gained residency here because of the birthright loophole that was closed over fifteen years ago. There are quite the number of African folks who came here legally and through the usual channels to access work in sectors like medicine who are employed and additions to this country. Subtract them and the numbers would be even more stark.

And how are Asians, Middle Easterners, Indians et al(never mind those aforementioned Africans who came here directly to work) magically immune to racism in the jobs market? Oh and this trend is seen everywhere in multicultural Europe with a host of different approaches to refugee policies, not just here. Nobody seems to be able to get things to work, but maybe if we through more words, time and money at the problem, somehow we'll be different...

ebayissues

Seems today is international migrants day. The government has publisheda couple of reports on integration.

Here is the link below. The one to open is Monitoring Report on Integration. I've had a quick scan and its worth a read

https://www.gov.ie/en/publications/