Green Party disintegration / split

10-05-2021 6:36pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I think they've also learned from their past spell in government. Last time around the contribution that most people seem to associate them with is tinkering with car & fuel taxes that were not popular. This time around they're pumping a lot of money into bike lanes and greenways - things that can be created relatively quickly and are seen by most prospective Green voters as a Public Good. Of course they also have the unfortunate in-built advantage that climate breakdown and environmental damage is going to continue to get worse in very visible ways for the foreseeable future.

The German green party also got wiped out at one point and now they are leading the polls. The English Greens did excellently in the local elections (despite an electoral system that makes it extremely difficult for smaller parties to break through).

I don't think there is any chance of the Irish Greens being wiped out again in the manner of 2011.

The German green party never had an electoral wipeout, unless you mean 31 years ago when their voteshare barely declined but the pecularities of that election resulted in less elected reps?

I'm not sure bike lanes get votes, quite the opposite if it comes at the expense of vehicles as Busconnects has sadly shown. People actually into green policies would have noticed that the vast majority of GP announced active travel spending and greenway investments were already promised by the last government, and rolled into a new announcement. Less interested individuals are probably not going to vote greens because "hey, bike lanes and greenways" but maybe they will *shrug*

Brussels Sprout · 18-05-2021 12:30pm

Does anyone know when the selection for the DBS candidate will take place?

Itssoeasy · 18-05-2021 7:36pm

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Does anyone know when the selection for the DBS candidate will take place?

I don’t even think there’s been a date set for the by election, which I know doesn’t have a bearing on when a candidate is selected from a party. Hazel Chu I know said her intention was to put her name forward but that’s all I’ve heard on the Green Party end.

L1011 · 18-05-2021 11:09pm

The date hasn't been set but the indication that it would be as late as possible has been swapped to it being in ~6 weeks.

Brussels Sprout · 05-06-2021 1:13pm

According to this (paywalled) article in the Independent that new splinter group party is launching today.

Lorna Bogue and a South Dublin County Councillor, Liam Sinclair, appear to be their only elected representatives.

There are around 30 members in the party, the vast majority of whom are young people aged under 35. Some have no prior political experience or come from parties like People Before Profit. Ms Bogue and Mr Sinclair are the only two high-profile ex-Greens who are in ARG. Others, despite attending early meetings, have not officially joined, or chose other parties. ARG’s concrete policies are still largely unclear. Ms Bogue said that this is down to the fact that the organisation has not yet held an AGM.

magicbastarder · 05-06-2021 1:34pm

would be interesting if they planned to run a candidate in DBS.
though the 'eco-socialist' tag is not going get enough hearts fluttering in that constituency to make much impact i suspect.

Brussels Sprout · 05-06-2021 5:48pm

They appear to have a website and twitter account.

This video looks like it was recorded by a drunken uncle in 1996:

https://twitter.com/AnRabhartaGlas/status/1401177822975168517

Capt'n Midnight · 06-06-2021 9:29pm

Green party has about 2,000 members. New party has 30 including ex-PBP
Be a while before they can do deals with anyone.

Because burning bridges is the best way to decarbonise.

magicbastarder · 06-06-2021 9:57pm

sounds more like a twitter splinter group than an actual political party.

Blut2 · 06-06-2021 10:04pm

Aren't PBP already quite environmentally friendly? It seems like madness to attempt to form another party on the hard left to battle over the 5%~ of electoral support that exists there.

I get leaving the Greens because they're not economically left enough, but ego (or delusion) is the only reason I can see for this group not just joining PBP.

magicbastarder · 06-06-2021 10:09pm

Blut2 wrote: »

I get leaving the Greens because they're not economically left enough

yeah, like the country needs a (checks notes) 10th political party on the left.

El Tarangu · 06-06-2021 10:22pm

Blut2 wrote: »

Aren't PBP already quite environmentally friendly?

No, but I imagine that they like to think of themselves as such.

Brussels Sprout · 07-06-2021 11:15am

magicbastarder wrote: »

yeah, like the country needs a (checks notes) 10th political party on the left.

The right looks for converts: the left looks for traitors

Leonard Hofstadter · 07-06-2021 10:37pm

Blut2 wrote: »

Aren't PBP already quite environmentally friendly? It seems like madness to attempt to form another party on the hard left to battle over the 5%~ of electoral support that exists there.

I get leaving the Greens because they're not economically left enough, but ego (or delusion) is the only reason I can see for this group not just joining PBP.

Well if you consider free water and no carbon taxes to be environmentally friendly, then yes.

By any other metric, no.

For Forks Sake · 07-06-2021 11:16pm

Blut2 wrote: »

Aren't PBP already quite environmentally friendly? It seems like madness to attempt to form another party on the hard left to battle over the 5%~ of electoral support that exists there.

I get leaving the Greens because they're not economically left enough, but ego (or delusion) is the only reason I can see for this group not just joining PBP.

Nah, was never a concern for them until they saw the Green vote increasing over the local and GE, then they decided to splash a coat of green over their usual red and start spouting their "Eco-socialist" guff.

Blut2 · 08-06-2021 11:33am

Interesting. I'm not a PBP voter so never looked into it much.

I'd still struggle to see how much of an electoral space there is for the watermelons though. More economically/socially left than the Greens, but also more environmentally friendly than PBP, is a very nice support group. In an already very fractured left-wing electoral space.

Sam Russell · 08-06-2021 1:10pm

I am beginning to think these left wing groups are less interested in not getting into Government so they can complain about their ideas are not being put into practice, rather being in Government and putting their ideas into practice, where they may be seen to be impractical and economically nuts.

Free domestic water - great idea, but expensive if usage not controlled and hard to fund. No property tax - great idea so the poor do not have to pay it, but the wealthy get away with a wealth tax they cannot get out of paying. No bin charges - great idea, but we all pay for them now, and fly tipping is at epidemic proportions and costs a fortune to clear up, paid for by the local authority. Keep paying the PUP, but €350 pw is equivalent to 35 hours of minimum wage, so who on minimum wage will come off it?

Most of these left wing groupings are just populist to gain votes from the poor suckers who do not see through their nonsense.

The term 'green washing' is applied to pseudo green policies that are basically trying to ride the green wave, but are not actually green at all. Well the same applies to many of the proposals of these left wing groupings.

Some of their policies are genuine though, like the great need for social housing (for about 30% of the population), and the need to house those most in need. However these projects end in just sloganeering. They need a clearer message.

08-06-2021 1:15pm

The far left love splinter groups, don't they? So many egos they all want to be leader so they keep forming new parties.

L1011 · 08-06-2021 1:50pm

Its vastly easier to make great statements from opposition than to govern - and plenty of splits on the left have occurred due to an unwillingness to accept the results of governing.

meeeeh · 08-06-2021 1:59pm

I heard a bit on the Pat Kenny. They will have a spokesperson but no leader because they don't believe in leader forcing decisions on them.

I'm starting to think none of them actually ever worked if they think decision by a committee is a good idea. It will take a month to agree an emergency response to something. It's clear they don't actually want to be in the government (like some other looney left parties they are looking for cushy number on opposition benches).

magicbastarder · 08-06-2021 2:00pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I am beginning to think these left wing groups are less interested in not getting into Government so they can complain about their ideas are not being put into practice, rather being in Government and putting their ideas into practice, where they may be seen to be impractical and economically nuts.

i don't think that's their intended goal, but it's where they end up.
governing is messier than ideology usually allows; and the main issue for parties like this is that they are not going to be in any majority in any timescale i can think of, and ideology won't allow them lie down with any other party - hell, it's proven here that those in the splinter group can't even lie down with the greens themselves.

Brussels Sprout · 08-06-2021 2:31pm

From the actual Green Party's point of view they must be pretty content with regard to how this has played out in the end.

They didn't lose any of their TDs.
The new party only has 2 councilors, both of whom left months ago.
The new party has a really terrible name. I keep forgetting it.
The new party doesn't appear to be well organised or have any real money behind it

Their main concern would probably be that they might lose young people to this new party and that could affect the future growth of the Greens.

iffandonlyif · 08-06-2021 2:36pm

They’re going in heavy on the Irish language.

Darc19 · 08-06-2021 2:38pm

Might be just the place for Paul Murphy and his annual change of grouping.

Maybe not. They want to be leaderless/rudderless.

What's their name again?

L1011 · 21-04-2023 8:57pm

After a period of relative stability, excepting Dail whip removals, they've another Councillor overboard

https://twitter.com/LiamQuaide/status/1649451207247757333

I would predict there will be more escaping in the next few months to give themselves a better chance of retaining their seat next May as an Independent.

That said, I assumed there'd be at least one TD overboard within a few months of going in to Government, and that hasn't happened, so trust my punditry as little as you want!