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Green Party disintegration / split

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  • #2


    There's only space for one 'green' party in Ireland, and even if the GP isn't as green as I'd like it to be, it's still the only one we're going to have - I think most people in the party accepted that. Outside of the Just Transition types, the people I know who left, left being involved in politics in general - and I personally don't think the JTG has any future. Politics in Ireland exists outside of twitter/social media, but they don't seem to realise that.

    I'm more worried about another electoral wipeout and not having even a subpar voice for environmental policies in the Irish political sphere - better the GP than no-one and we really lost out in the 2010s having no-one outside of small NGOs to argue for environmental policies and a climate-friendly future.


  • #2


    i don't know if it will make a difference, but the dynamic of the coalition is slightly different this time; they took a lot of flak for the FF coalition, and FF successfully used them as sandbags.
    this time, it may be that FF and FG turn on each other with SF being their main bogeyman, come the next election.

    the greens will suffer, no doubt, but i'm not sure to what extent compared to last time. but if they're clever, they'll try to spin the blame off as an FF vs FG thing.


  • #2


    the greens will suffer, no doubt, but i'm not sure to what extent compared to last time. but if they're clever, they'll try to spin the blame off as an FF vs FG thing.


    So far, the evidence is they're pretty gormless at playing coalition politics imho. I think that's one area Catherine would be better at than Eamon, though I'm not sure how much (if at all) better she'd be in other areas.


  • #2


    i don't think they're particularly good at politics in general. as in the horse trading, somewhat machiavellian style ireland is used to.


  • #2


    I think they've also learned from their past spell in government. Last time around the contribution that most people seem to associate them with is tinkering with car & fuel taxes that were not popular. This time around they're pumping a lot of money into bike lanes and greenways - things that can be created relatively quickly and are seen by most prospective Green voters as a Public Good. Of course they also have the unfortunate in-built advantage that climate breakdown and environmental damage is going to continue to get worse in very visible ways for the foreseeable future.

    The German green party also got wiped out at one point and now they are leading the polls. The English Greens did excellently in the local elections (despite an electoral system that makes it extremely difficult for smaller parties to break through).

    I don't think there is any chance of the Irish Greens being wiped out again in the manner of 2011.


  • #2


    The Greens should be safer from collapse this time because theres no real middle-class middle of the road left wing party for their voters to move to. Back in 2011 they jumped wholesale to Labour. But Labour are in the doldrums at the moment and the SocDems are far too badly run (and SJW issue obsessed in a lot of people's minds) to capitalize. And SF and PBP etc too hard left.

    They'll lose a few fringe seats, but the core seats like Eamon Ryans in Dublin Bay South, Catherine Martin in Rathdown and a few of the other leafier Dublin ones like Ossian Smyth in Dun Laoghaire should all survive. Worst case scenario they should keep 6ish of their current 12 seats unless something shocking happens.


  • #2


    I think they've also learned from their past spell in government. Last time around the contribution that most people seem to associate them with is tinkering with car & fuel taxes that were not popular. This time around they're pumping a lot of money into bike lanes and greenways - things that can be created relatively quickly and are seen by most prospective Green voters as a Public Good. Of course they also have the unfortunate in-built advantage that climate breakdown and environmental damage is going to continue to get worse in very visible ways for the foreseeable future.

    The German green party also got wiped out at one point and now they are leading the polls. The English Greens did excellently in the local elections (despite an electoral system that makes it extremely difficult for smaller parties to break through).

    I don't think there is any chance of the Irish Greens being wiped out again in the manner of 2011.
    The German green party never had an electoral wipeout, unless you mean 31 years ago when their voteshare barely declined but the pecularities of that election resulted in less elected reps?

    I'm not sure bike lanes get votes, quite the opposite if it comes at the expense of vehicles as Busconnects has sadly shown. People actually into green policies would have noticed that the vast majority of GP announced active travel spending and greenway investments were already promised by the last government, and rolled into a new announcement. Less interested individuals are probably not going to vote greens because "hey, bike lanes and greenways" but maybe they will *shrug*


  • #2


    Does anyone know when the selection for the DBS candidate will take place?


  • #2


    Does anyone know when the selection for the DBS candidate will take place?

    I don’t even think there’s been a date set for the by election, which I know doesn’t have a bearing on when a candidate is selected from a party. Hazel Chu I know said her intention was to put her name forward but that’s all I’ve heard on the Green Party end.


  • #2


    The date hasn't been set but the indication that it would be as late as possible has been swapped to it being in ~6 weeks.


  • #2


    According to this (paywalled) article in the Independent that new splinter group party is launching today.

    Lorna Bogue and a South Dublin County Councillor, Liam Sinclair, appear to be their only elected representatives.
    There are around 30 members in the party, the vast majority of whom are young people aged under 35. Some have no prior political experience or come from parties like People Before Profit. Ms Bogue and Mr Sinclair are the only two high-profile ex-Greens who are in ARG. Others, despite attending early meetings, have not officially joined, or chose other parties. ARG’s concrete policies are still largely unclear. Ms Bogue said that this is down to the fact that the organisation has not yet held an AGM.


  • #2


    would be interesting if they planned to run a candidate in DBS.
    though the 'eco-socialist' tag is not going get enough hearts fluttering in that constituency to make much impact i suspect.


  • #2


    They appear to have a website and twitter account.

    This video looks like it was recorded by a drunken uncle in 1996:

    https://twitter.com/AnRabhartaGlas/status/1401177822975168517


  • #2


    Green party has about 2,000 members. New party has 30 including ex-PBP
    Be a while before they can do deals with anyone.


    Because burning bridges is the best way to decarbonise.


  • #2


    sounds more like a twitter splinter group than an actual political party.


  • #2


    Aren't PBP already quite environmentally friendly? It seems like madness to attempt to form another party on the hard left to battle over the 5%~ of electoral support that exists there.

    I get leaving the Greens because they're not economically left enough, but ego (or delusion) is the only reason I can see for this group not just joining PBP.


  • #2


    Blut2 wrote: »
    I get leaving the Greens because they're not economically left enough
    yeah, like the country needs a (checks notes) 10th political party on the left.


  • #2


    Blut2 wrote: »
    Aren't PBP already quite environmentally friendly?

    No, but I imagine that they like to think of themselves as such.


  • #2


    yeah, like the country needs a (checks notes) 10th political party on the left.

    The right looks for converts: the left looks for traitors


  • #2


    Blut2 wrote: »
    Aren't PBP already quite environmentally friendly? It seems like madness to attempt to form another party on the hard left to battle over the 5%~ of electoral support that exists there.

    I get leaving the Greens because they're not economically left enough, but ego (or delusion) is the only reason I can see for this group not just joining PBP.

    Well if you consider free water and no carbon taxes to be environmentally friendly, then yes.

    By any other metric, no.


  • #2


    Blut2 wrote: »
    Aren't PBP already quite environmentally friendly? It seems like madness to attempt to form another party on the hard left to battle over the 5%~ of electoral support that exists there.

    I get leaving the Greens because they're not economically left enough, but ego (or delusion) is the only reason I can see for this group not just joining PBP.

    Nah, was never a concern for them until they saw the Green vote increasing over the local and GE, then they decided to splash a coat of green over their usual red and start spouting their "Eco-socialist" guff.


  • #2


    Interesting. I'm not a PBP voter so never looked into it much.

    I'd still struggle to see how much of an electoral space there is for the watermelons though. More economically/socially left than the Greens, but also more environmentally friendly than PBP, is a very nice support group. In an already very fractured left-wing electoral space.


  • #2


    I am beginning to think these left wing groups are less interested in not getting into Government so they can complain about their ideas are not being put into practice, rather being in Government and putting their ideas into practice, where they may be seen to be impractical and economically nuts.

    Free domestic water - great idea, but expensive if usage not controlled and hard to fund. No property tax - great idea so the poor do not have to pay it, but the wealthy get away with a wealth tax they cannot get out of paying. No bin charges - great idea, but we all pay for them now, and fly tipping is at epidemic proportions and costs a fortune to clear up, paid for by the local authority. Keep paying the PUP, but €350 pw is equivalent to 35 hours of minimum wage, so who on minimum wage will come off it?

    Most of these left wing groupings are just populist to gain votes from the poor suckers who do not see through their nonsense.

    The term 'green washing' is applied to pseudo green policies that are basically trying to ride the green wave, but are not actually green at all. Well the same applies to many of the proposals of these left wing groupings.

    Some of their policies are genuine though, like the great need for social housing (for about 30% of the population), and the need to house those most in need. However these projects end in just sloganeering. They need a clearer message.


  • #2


    The far left love splinter groups, don't they? So many egos they all want to be leader so they keep forming new parties.


  • #2


    Its vastly easier to make great statements from opposition than to govern - and plenty of splits on the left have occurred due to an unwillingness to accept the results of governing.


  • #2


    I heard a bit on the Pat Kenny. They will have a spokesperson but no leader because they don't believe in leader forcing decisions on them.

    I'm starting to think none of them actually ever worked if they think decision by a committee is a good idea. It will take a month to agree an emergency response to something. It's clear they don't actually want to be in the government (like some other looney left parties they are looking for cushy number on opposition benches).


  • #2


    I am beginning to think these left wing groups are less interested in not getting into Government so they can complain about their ideas are not being put into practice, rather being in Government and putting their ideas into practice, where they may be seen to be impractical and economically nuts.
    i don't think that's their intended goal, but it's where they end up.
    governing is messier than ideology usually allows; and the main issue for parties like this is that they are not going to be in any majority in any timescale i can think of, and ideology won't allow them lie down with any other party - hell, it's proven here that those in the splinter group can't even lie down with the greens themselves.


  • #2


    From the actual Green Party's point of view they must be pretty content with regard to how this has played out in the end.
    • They didn't lose any of their TDs.
    • The new party only has 2 councilors, both of whom left months ago.
    • The new party has a really terrible name. I keep forgetting it.
    • The new party doesn't appear to be well organised or have any real money behind it

    Their main concern would probably be that they might lose young people to this new party and that could affect the future growth of the Greens.


  • #2


    They’re going in heavy on the Irish language.


  • #2


    Might be just the place for Paul Murphy and his annual change of grouping.






    Maybe not. They want to be leaderless/rudderless.


    What's their name again?


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