Storage of ammunition / explosives

ESetter · 26-11-2020 11:51am

I get the impression that if a couple of interested groups..deer stalking..target shooters etc could organise themselves properly and went to the DOJ / Gardai with a fully thought out proposal, that reloading could be allowed. Maybe im being too simplistic??

tudderone · 26-11-2020 11:53am

ESetter wrote: »

I get the impression that if a couple of interested groups..deer stalking..target shooters etc could organise themselves properly and went to the DOJ / Gardai with a fully thought out proposal, that reloading could be allowed. Maybe im being too simplistic??

Optimistic.

Cass · 26-11-2020 1:49pm

GolfVI wrote: »

To be fair, I've been a member of the midlands for 3-4 years now and attended nearly every weekend when it was open and not a single time has anyone or any staff mentioned or talked about the ability to reload there.

Have you approached anyone about it? As i said earlier if people are sitting around waiting for an invitation they may be waiting a while.

Is it still possible? How does it work ? Who do I ask?

Yes, still available. Its for the Long range lads (F-Class) so not everyone on the range gets it. Put it this way i can reload for the long range stuff, but not for my hunting rifles even though i'm on the program. Speak to JP or Tony and they'll set you on your path.

Cass · 26-11-2020 1:49pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

What drawbacks would there be? The initial cost of the equipment needed to reload? Or do you mean if someone makes a balls of the reloading process and actually destroys their gun/themselves?

Again only my opinion so others may disagree.

The initial cost is not off-putting because like everything shooting there is always an initial cost. My idea of drawback is the end result for the workload involved. You could spend weeks even months (and i've done this) developing the absolute perfect load. Now i know for 1,200 yard shooting most people won't ever need that sort of precision but as i don't load for anything under 600 yards i wouldn't know.

There are days of prep, weeks of testing, all of which incur costs. Speaking of costs you save NOTHING by reloading. The first batch using new bras actually costs more than buying factory and the first batch may be a failure. The second batch will be cheaper as you get to reuse your brass but when i say cheaper i mean the cost is about he same as a factory round, maybe slightly cheaper. Every reuse of brass, and assuming you have some components left (bullets/primers/propellant) gets a little cheaper, but then you get to the point you've used up everything and the brass has been used multiple times and needs replacing then you're back up to the initial cost of every component new.

As all reloading has to be done on the range it means hours of sitting in an authorised container doing all this. Remember no at home reloading. I was hesitant to say any of this because it seems i'm making a case for it being too much grief or not worth it. I'm not. Its absolutely worth it but It's an Irish problem. In other countries the components are far, far cheaper. Those able to reload elsewhere can do so at home and because any RFD can stock the components the price of them is cheaper. The same applies to the cost of importing and transporting. At present that cost is spread over the few in F-Class, but imagine that cost spread of thousands even tens of thousands of people. Becomes pennies not pounds of cost per person.

Again, and i must say this so there is no confusion, reloading is good. It can improve the performance of the worse rifle and the lads in the Midlands absolutely need it to remain competitive on the international competition front. Reloading would also be of huge benefit to the "plinker" shooter who only seeks to load a specific round or wants a little more from his set up. However unless more people seek it out and it becomes more widespread as it currently stands there is no reloading for 99.3% of firearm owners and in its current format the program is a lot of work. As it's all i've ever known perhaps my viewpoint is skewered, and the guys in America, UK, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc, etc. that do it at home may say the complete opposite, but when some of them (when they come here for comps) see what we have to do they say are even amazed at the hoops that have to be jumped through and admit it might put them off.

Cass · 26-11-2020 1:49pm

ESetter wrote: »

I get the impression that if a couple of interested groups..deer stalking..target shooters etc could organise themselves properly and went to the DOJ / Gardai with a fully thought out proposal, that reloading could be allowed. Maybe im being too simplistic??

Not really. There are, as i've said above, certain conditions that have to be met which can limit the people that can actually do it (as opposed to anyone applying for a "license") but applications need to be submitted to keep pressure on the powers that be that its not a forgotten topic and people really do want it to become more available.

Cass · 26-11-2020 1:52pm

One last thing for all eyes on this thread/my replies.

These are my own opinions and not representative of the views of any group or association. My opinions are based on my experiences within a limited program and is not actually a critique of the program itself, but more so on the way reloading is almost "feared" by the PTB and how it could be so much better if simple and completely traceable changes were made.

BattleCorp · 26-11-2020 2:02pm

Cass wrote: »

Not really. There are, as i've said above, certain conditions that have to be met which can limit the people that can actually do it (as opposed to anyone applying for a "license") but applications need to be submitted to keep pressure on the powers that be that its not a forgotten topic and people really do want it to become more available.

Out of curiosity, where does one find the prescribed form mentioned in the Criminal Justice Act 2006 legislation below? I've never heard tell of it.

40.— The following section is inserted after section 10 of the Principal Act:

“Reloading of ammunition.

10A.—(1) A person (except a registered firearms dealer or the holder of a licence under this section) who reloads ammunition is guilty of an offence.

(2) An application for a licence under this section shall be in the prescribed form, be accompanied by the prescribed fee (if any) and be made to the superintendent of the Garda Síochána of the district in which the applicant resides.

(3) A superintendent shall not grant a licence under this section unless satisfied that the following conditions are complied with:

(a) the applicant holds a firearm certificate;

(b) the reloading of ammunition will not, in the particular circumstances, endanger public safety or security or the peace;

(c) the person has a special need which, in the opinion of the superintendent, is sufficient to justify granting the licence;

(d) the applicant is competent to reload ammunition;

(e) the premises where the reloading is to take place are sufficiently safe and secure for that purpose.

(4) The superintendent may at any time—

(a) attach to the licence such further conditions as he or she considers necessary for the purpose of preventing danger to members of the public or the peace or for ensuring that ammunition is reloaded only to satisfy the special need of the applicant, and

(b) for that purpose vary any of those conditions.

Grizzly 45 · 26-11-2020 4:04pm

Actually , reloading IS permitted here in Ireland. just that the legislation around its manufacture and storage, not to mind importing the "explosive" is based on commercial manufacturing, [and not taking into account a guy wanting to hand load a few rounds for deer season].

The Govts attitude is this. If you can fulfil the conditions of the law as it stands, go right ahead, and if you do manage to do such, your first round of home-produced ammo will be worth about 50 euros!! IOW it's an Irish solution to an Irish problem..Allow it but make it so arduous no one sane can fulfil the requirements.

Grizzly 45 · 26-11-2020 4:06pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Out of curiosity, where does one find the prescribed form mentioned in the Criminal Justice Act 2006 legislation below? I've never heard tell of it.

That part of the act ASFIK has never been enacted on the statue books.

BattleCorp · 26-11-2020 4:14pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That part of the act ASFIK has never been enacted on the statue books.

Do you mean that the required application form was never developed, or do you mean that that section of the Act was never enacted?

Cass · 26-11-2020 4:19pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Out of curiosity, where does one find the prescribed form mentioned in the Criminal Justice Act 2006 legislation below? I've never heard tell of it.

No idea. I do mine through the range authorisation so never done it on an individual basis.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Actually , reloading IS permitted here in Ireland.

Don't think anyone said it cannot be, so...........................?

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That part of the act ASFIK has never been enacted on the statue books.

Correct. It was never commenced and then repealed in the 2009 Act (section 44 iirc) along with SI 310/2009.

BattleCorp · 26-11-2020 5:11pm

Cass wrote: »

Correct. It was never commenced and then repealed in the 2009 Act (section 44 iirc) along with SI 310/2009.

Sorry if I seem dumb with these questions.

So what actual Act or SI makes it an offence to reload without a licence/permit/authorisation?

Or is it legal to reload without authorisation, it's just having the components is the problem?

Grizzly 45 · 26-11-2020 7:26pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Sorry if I seem dumb with these questions.

So what actual Act or SI makes it an offence to reload without a licence/permit/authorisation?

Or is it legal to reload without authorisation, it's just having the components is the problem?

If I rightly recall, its a " manufacture of ammunition act 2000", or titled something similar around that date. It goes into the whole commercial thing of producing ammo, how when where, what safety regs must be kept and done etc and that is what the state works off in legislation do deal with this. So there is no exemption for anyone working with the same amounts as a package of shotgun shells.

The tools and dies are legal to own, having the bullet heads probably is.
I quantify this, because there was a case back in Donegal[?] in the early 90s where a hunter was charged with" manufacturing ammo". What he was doing was swapping out the bullet heads for a heavier round in a 22/250, which was the only legal option back then for deer.
It was dismissed at the DC level as the judge decided it was modifying the round Not manufacturing it from a spent shell with powder and primers, and all he had was a bullet puller and a seating press for that calibre. Nothing else to do the other stages of making a full round.
So Cevat emptor on that one.

tudderone · 03-12-2020 9:07pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If I rightly recall, its a " manufacture of ammunition act 2000", or titled something similar around that date. It goes into the whole commercial thing of producing ammo, how when where, what safety regs must be kept and done etc and that is what the state works off in legislation do deal with this. So there is no exemption for anyone working with the same amounts as a package of shotgun shells.

The tools and dies are legal to own, having the bullet heads probably is.
I quantify this, because there was a case back in Donegal[?] in the early 90s where a hunter was charged with" manufacturing ammo". What he was doing was swapping out the bullet heads for a heavier round in a 22/250, which was the only legal option back then for deer.
It was dismissed at the DC level as the judge decided it was modifying the round Not manufacturing it from a spent shell with powder and primers, and all he had was a bullet puller and a seating press for that calibre. Nothing else to do the other stages of making a full round.
So Cevat emptor on that one.

I remember that, the lad was caught twice. I also seem to remember the police threatening him with something and after that it all went quiet. They overstepped the mark, but seeing it was Donegal in the 90's, that wouldn't be unusual.

tudderone · 03-12-2020 9:10pm

Just seen this on another website, the police chief of Gothenberg in Sweden warning that unless he gets more help, the bombings will continue. Sweden had 250 bombings last year.

Even during the height of the troubles, i don't remember that many. Maybe thats why the police here are so resistant to reloading/blackpowder etc here ?

https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/police-chief-warns-migrant-mafia-gangs-are-turning-sweden-into-gangster-s-paradise-1.1093049

Grizzly 45 · 03-12-2020 11:01pm

tudderone wrote: »

I remember that, the lad was caught twice. I also seem to remember the police threatening him with something and after that it all went quiet. They overstepped the mark but seeing it was Donegal in the '90s, that wouldn't be unusual.

Thanks! I was wondering had I imagined or misremembered that case. As no one else out there in the shooting community seems to have ever heard of it.

Just seen this on another website, the police chief of Gothenberg in Sweden warning that unless he gets more help, the bombings will continue. Sweden had 250 bombings last year.

Even during the height of the troubles, i don't remember that many. Maybe thats why the police here are so resistant to reloading/blackpowder etc here ?

What that article is NOT telling us is the bombs used in Gotheburg or Sweden are Russian, Soviet era black market anti-personnel hand grenades and the Russian version of LAW 72 single-shot bazookas. All coming from the Russian 13th Oblast , Kaliningrad or from Russia itself across the Baltic.

A very far cry from a bit of folded copper pipe with an improvised fuse and a match head or sugar chlorate payload. Yeah, BP can be used too as can nitro powder, but then what's to stop you pulling a bunch of shotgun shells apart to get the same powder amount? Or mixing some stuff up from easily available household chemicals and stuff found in your local Co-op?

tudderone · 03-12-2020 11:53pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thanks! I was wondering had I imagined or misremembered that case. As no one else out there in the shooting community seems to have ever heard of it.

What that article is NOT telling us is the bombs used in Gotheburg or Sweden are Russian, Soviet era black market anti-personnel hand grenades and the Russian version of LAW 72 single-shot bazookas. All coming from the Russian 13th Oblast , Kaliningrad or from Russia itself across the Baltic.

A very far cry from a bit of folded copper pipe with an improvised fuse and a match head or sugar chlorate payload. Yeah, BP can be used too as can nitro powder, but then what's to stop you pulling a bunch of shotgun shells apart to get the same powder amount? Or mixing some stuff up from easily available household chemicals and stuff found in your local Co-op?

Yes i remember the case in Donegal, pre-internet so probably not easily findable online. I think it was in the Irish shooters Digest. I wonder whatever happened in the end ?

Terrible all the same. I remember reading about Sweden years ago and it seemed to be an ideal country. One lad i know who lives there has bailed out into the countryside from Malmo, he reckoned it had gone to the dogs, and so fast it would make your head spin.

Feisar · 04-12-2020 9:48am

He can't have been pulling bullets, sticking a heavier one on and calling it good?!!

Feisar · 04-12-2020 9:59am

Cass wrote: »

Again only my opinion so others may disagree.

The initial cost is not off-putting because like everything shooting there is always an initial cost. My idea of drawback is the end result for the workload involved. You could spend weeks even months (and i've done this) developing the absolute perfect load. Now i know for 1,200 yard shooting most people won't ever need that sort of precision but as i don't load for anything under 600 yards i wouldn't know.

There are days of prep, weeks of testing, all of which incur costs. Speaking of costs you save NOTHING by reloading. The first batch using new bras actually costs more than buying factory and the first batch may be a failure. The second batch will be cheaper as you get to reuse your brass but when i say cheaper i mean the cost is about he same as a factory round, maybe slightly cheaper. Every reuse of brass, and assuming you have some components left (bullets/primers/propellant) gets a little cheaper, but then you get to the point you've used up everything and the brass has been used multiple times and needs replacing then you're back up to the initial cost of every component new.

As all reloading has to be done on the range it means hours of sitting in an authorised container doing all this. Remember no at home reloading. I was hesitant to say any of this because it seems i'm making a case for it being too much grief or not worth it. I'm not. Its absolutely worth it but It's an Irish problem. In other countries the components are far, far cheaper. Those able to reload elsewhere can do so at home and because any RFD can stock the components the price of them is cheaper. The same applies to the cost of importing and transporting. At present that cost is spread over the few in F-Class, but imagine that cost spread of thousands even tens of thousands of people. Becomes pennies not pounds of cost per person.

Again, and i must say this so there is no confusion, reloading is good. It can improve the performance of the worse rifle and the lads in the Midlands absolutely need it to remain competitive on the international competition front. Reloading would also be of huge benefit to the "plinker" shooter who only seeks to load a specific round or wants a little more from his set up. However unless more people seek it out and it becomes more widespread as it currently stands there is no reloading for 99.3% of firearm owners and in its current format the program is a lot of work. As it's all i've ever known perhaps my viewpoint is skewered, and the guys in America, UK, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc, etc. that do it at home may say the complete opposite, but when some of them (when they come here for comps) see what we have to do they say are even amazed at the hoops that have to be jumped through and admit it might put them off.

Thanks for that. It's grand when you see a lad on youtube load up five sets of five then pop out to his back yard and chase an accuracy node. Different ball game for us here! It'd be grand if I could do it at home while she's watching I'm a celebrity but realistically getting to the range takes up a chunk of time at the weekend as it is, never mind sitting in a container!
The results ya see lads getting does be sweet though when you see a load tuning in.

Grizzly 45 · 04-12-2020 3:06pm

Feisar wrote: »

He can't have been pulling bullets, sticking a heavier one on and calling it good?!!

Different times... Ya did what you had to...Remember going out with my dad and a few likely lads here "deer hunting" as a young fellah of 12 with shotguns and the ammo being cut loads or waxed loads:)
So this fellah doing that would have been quite normal for his circumstances.

All said and done,we have come a long way in the last 20+ years in the shooting scene in Ireland.Compared to most EU countries where they are regressing.

tudderone · 04-12-2020 3:36pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Different times... Ya did what you had to...Remember going out with my dad and a few likely lads here "deer hunting" as a young fellah of 12 with shotguns and the ammo being cut loads or waxed loads:)
So this fellah doing that would have been quite normal for his circumstances.

All said and done,we have come a long way in the last 20+ years in the shooting scene in Ireland.Compared to most EU countries where they are regressing.

In some ways yes, but in others, no. I remember when good shooting could be had for the asking, or the bottle of Jameson whiskey at christmas. One place i used to shoot, the owner told me a lad turned up in a brand spanking new range rover and offered him thousands for the shooting rights. Another git i know joined a gunclub with a lot of land to shoot over, shot it for a year, then sneakily went to the farmer and told him whatever the club was paying, he'd better it.

The irish got a few bob and ran amok in some ways.

Feisar · 04-12-2020 4:04pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Different times... Ya did what you had to...Remember going out with my dad and a few likely lads here "deer hunting" as a young fellah of 12 with shotguns and the ammo being cut loads or waxed loads:)
So this fellah doing that would have been quite normal for his circumstances.

All said and done,we have come a long way in the last 20+ years in the shooting scene in Ireland.Compared to most EU countries where they are regressing.

I was coming at it from pressures etc.

I remember a story Dad was telling me about what some of the old folk were at during the First World War. Making up their own cartridges, pouring led through a sieve for shot, dunno what they were using for primers.

Edit - I never heard tell of cut loads until IraqVetern8888 on youtube.

Grizzly 45 · 04-12-2020 8:47pm

Feisar wrote: »

I was coming at it from pressures etc.

I remember a story Dad was telling me about what some of the old folk were at during the First World War. Making up their own cartridges, pouring led through a sieve for shot, dunno what they were using for primers.

Edit - I never heard tell of cut loads until IraqVetern8888 on youtube.

Possibly ground up strike anywhere match heads or home-brewed iodine crystals. The yokes you used to be able to get in the magic /joke shops wrapped in little paper balls that you threw at each other in class?:D
They are a primary explosive that impacts sensitive. Fifddley and a right PITFA to get into a re -hammered and sized primer cap, but it can be done and you'll be dammed sure of your shot:).

Yet still, I was looking at an old 1940 June UK shooting mag,and they were still selling and making shotgun shells for the home front and pest control...More the 4 legged variety, as I think the 2 legged kinds they were expecting to visit that Summer, might have been likely to shoot back, with something like an MP40 or a K98! ICI was the big supplier and they had a plant or Kynoch still did in Ireland at the time,so they were still probably available?

kunekunesika · 04-12-2020 9:20pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Possibly ground up strike anywhere match heads or home-brewed iodine crystals. The yokes you used to be able to get in the magic /joke shops wrapped in little paper balls that you threw at each other in class?:D
They are a primary explosive that impacts sensitive. Fifddley and a right PITFA to get into a re -hammered and sized primer cap, but it can be done and you'll be dammed sure of your shot:).

Yet still, I was looking at an old 1940 June UK shooting mag,and they were still selling and making shotgun shells for the home front and pest control...More the 4 legged variety, as I think the 2 legged kinds they were expecting to visit that Summer, might have been likely to shoot back, with something like an MP40 or a K98! ICI was the big supplier and they had a plant or Kynoch still did in Ireland at the time,so they were still probably available?

Kynochs in arklow closed after the 1st world war. The British thought it best not to trust us, and moved it to South Africa

kunekunesika · 04-12-2020 9:22pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Possibly ground up strike anywhere match heads or home-brewed iodine crystals. The yokes you used to be able to get in the magic /joke shops wrapped in little paper balls that you threw at each other in class?:D
They are a primary explosive that impacts sensitive. Fifddley and a right PITFA to get into a re -hammered and sized primer cap, but it can be done and you'll be dammed sure of your shot:).

Yet still, I was looking at an old 1940 June UK shooting mag,and they were still selling and making shotgun shells for the home front and pest control...More the 4 legged variety, as I think the 2 legged kinds they were expecting to visit that Summer, might have been likely to shoot back, with something like an MP40 or a K98! ICI was the big supplier and they had a plant or Kynoch still did in Ireland at the time,so they were still probably available?

Kynochs in arklow closed after the 1st world war. The British thought it best not to trust us, and moved it to South Africa

tudderone · 04-12-2020 9:28pm

kunekunesika wrote: »

Kynochs in arklow closed after the 1st world war. The British thought it best not to trust us, and moved it to South Africa

Incorrect, it blew up, and as it had blown up previously they decided it was best to leave it closed.

Cass · 04-12-2020 11:03pm

Feisar wrote: »

The results ya see lads getting does be sweet though when you see a load tuning in.

My best ever results were 2.5 inches at 1000 yards, consistently. There were a couple of lads from the forum at the range with me and i knew it was going to be a good day when my first, cold bore, shot went straight through the V in the V-bull. I mean straight through the dead centre of it. It was literally perfectly centred on the target.

Of course the rifle can do great things but the biggest fault with a rifle/set up is usually the shooter, in this case me. I fell to pieces at comps each and every time. Sometimes i had a minor equipment failure, but i got too much into my own head, ended up chasing the POI, lost the wind and fecked myself up.

Cass · 04-12-2020 11:12pm

Should say it took, on and off, nearly 5 months to perfect that load between propellant, bullets, primers, case sizing, seating depths, etc.

tudderone · 05-12-2020 12:35am

Cass wrote: »

Should say it took, on and off, nearly 5 months to perfect that load between propellant, bullets, primers, case sizing, seating depths, etc.

Reloading is a hobby in itself, which is why its a pity it is not available to other shooters here.

Feisar · 05-12-2020 2:07am

Cass wrote: »

My best ever results were 2.5 inches at 1000 yards, consistently.

Never mind that comp stuff, that's what it's about! IMHO of course.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Storage of ammunition / explosives

Comments

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County