Storage of ammunition / explosives

Zxthinger

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/StorageOfAmmunition

Just another interesting reference to the modeB

slipperyox

1.2 million .22LR cartridges is cool then?

Chiparus

Firearms dealers ?

juice1304

slipperyox wrote: »

1.2 million .22LR cartridges is cool then?

If you have a strong room built to dealer specifications then yes. At home no.

tudderone

juice1304 wrote: »

If you have a strong room built to dealer specifications then yes. At home no.

"Mode B: A substantial receptacle or safe inside a dwelling house or public room. The general limit is 50 lbs of mixed explosives or double this if kept in a fireproof safe, and in addition, 500 lbs of small arms ammunition (or 550 lbs if small arms ammunition only)".

tudderone

Is there a move on to allow blackpowder to be used by shooters interested in muzzleloading ? Its something i always fancied getting involved in. A nice cap and ball revolver would be nice.

Munsterlad102

tudderone wrote: »

Is there a move on to allow blackpowder to be used by shooters interested in muzzleloading ? Its something i always fancied getting involved in. A nice cap and ball revolver would be nice.

Would a cap and ball revolver not be a restricted short firearm and hence unlicensable?

juice1304

tudderone wrote: »

Is there a move on to allow blackpowder to be used by shooters interested in muzzleloading ? Its something i always fancied getting involved in. A nice cap and ball revolver would be nice.

No, You have to have a magazine built and certified by the local authority. It cant be in or near a dwelling. And everything has to be fireproof.
Nitrocellulose powder is much more stable and safe and they wont allow people have it. So not a hope in hell them allowing people own black powder.

Witcher

Munsterlad102 wrote: »

Would a cap and ball revolver not be a restricted short firearm and hence unlicensable?

Yes

tudderone

juice1304 wrote: »

No, You have to have a magazine built and certified by the local authority. It cant be in or near a dwelling. And everything has to be fireproof.
Nitrocellulose powder is much more stable and safe and they wont allow people have it. So not a hope in hell them allowing people own black powder.

Petrol is extremely dangerous, it doesn't stop people having it or have to have any special storage conditions. I know lads in the UK into blackpowder shooting, they only need a lockable wooden box to store black powder, we need a replica of a ww2 German flaktower :rolleyes:. Blackpowder shooting must be the most inoffensive of all the shooting sports, it appeals mainly to superannuated old farts...............like me.

juice1304

tudderone wrote: »

Petrol is extremely dangerous, it doesn't stop people having it or have to have any special storage conditions. I know lads in the UK into blackpowder shooting, they only need a lockable wooden box to store black powder, we need a replica of a ww2 German flaktower :rolleyes:. Blackpowder shooting must be the most inoffensive of all the shooting sports, it appeals mainly to superannuated old farts...............like me.

Yes everywhere else in the world they want it in a locked wooden box because of static electricity. Here they want it locked in a pressure vessel capable of igniting it with a static charge. Ping pong balls are also made of nitrocellulose. They are just very ignorant and listen to people in the gardai who have gotten their firearms education from watching john wick.

tudderone

They are a restricted short firearm, and yet they are perfectly legal to own and possess without a licence, so long as they are originals and not repro's. More Irish logic.

tudderone

juice1304 wrote: »

Yes everywhere else in the world they want it in a locked wooden box because of static electricity. Here they want it locked in a pressure vessel capable of igniting it with a static charge. Ping pong balls are also made of nitrocellulose. They are just very ignorant and listen to people in the gardai who have gotten their firearms education from watching john wick.

Or as admitted by a garda expert in open court, "Youtube" !

juice1304

Was that their expert who did an online ballistics course?

Munsterlad102

tudderone wrote: »

They are a restricted short firearm, and yet they are perfectly legal to own and possess without a licence, so long as they are originals and not repro's. More Irish logic.

Oh yes but they have to be pre 1850 or something similar and must be preunitary cartridge too. But then shooting one would be impossible, with the black powder predicament and the handgun ban.

Grizzly 45

juice1304 wrote: »

Was that their expert who did an online ballistics course?

Ah !Come on!! Give him SOME credit!! He went away and did a long WEEKEND course ....Or two...At a university in Scotland!:D:D:D

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

Or as admitted by a garda expert in open court, "Youtube" !

Known even to his own dept in the Park as "inspector Google":cool:
In fairness to the guy, if it was crime scenes, and blood patterns,and all that good " CSI Dublin" stuff. He was top of his game, as is the dept.So they deserve a lot of kudos there. Firearms and types , he was totally , excuse the pun, outgunned.

Zxthinger

I'm still at a loss to see why mode b (a wooden lock box) is not accepted. There is a unfair onus being place one any private individuals who wish to examine the possibility of reloading and that is a system that places industrial metrics on a private citizen..
I have personally given up on the idea that reloading will even be considered for hunters..

juice1304

Zxthinger wrote: »

I'm still at a loss to see why mode b (a wooden lock box) is not accepted. There is a unfair onus being place one any private individuals who wish to examine the possibility of reloading and that is a system that places industrial metrics on a private citizen..
I have personally given up on the idea that reloading will even be considered for hunters..

It wont, The wonderful shooting overlords who speak for us all said no hunters etc need or want it. And they are never going to change the legislation its a mess

tudderone

Zxthinger wrote: »

I'm still at a loss to see why mode b (a wooden lock box) is not accepted. There is a unfair onus being place one any private individuals who wish to examine the possibility of reloading and that is a system that places industrial metrics on a private citizen..
I have personally given up on the idea that reloading will even be considered for hunters..

What annoys me is things that are commonplace in the shooting sports worldwide are a major no-no's here. Reloading for hunters, pistols for humane dispatch (which are even allowed in the uk), Muzzleloading/blackpowder shooting. "Shure jaysis no, you couldn't have tings like dat here, the sky would fall on us".

Clareman

I get the impression that here in Ireland we see anything to do with firearms as being capable of being used as terrorist weapons so they will go to the furthest realms of common sense and making their ruling on that, for example, black powder is banned cause it could be used to blow something up, yes that is right and that's what it's designed to do but there are far more suitable alternatives more readily available so the chances of a modernday Guy Fawkes coming in is slim but because it is impossible to apply common sense they just ban it.

This isn't just in firearms, look at what happened when a discussion on drink driving started to happen, everyone was going to be drinking driving and killing everyone, no that's not what the discussion was but because that's the extreme that's what people jump on so nothing changes.

tudderone

Clareman wrote: »

I get the impression that here in Ireland we see anything to do with firearms as being capable of being used as terrorist weapons so they will go to the furthest realms of common sense and making their ruling on that, for example, black powder is banned cause it could be used to blow something up, yes that is right and that's what it's designed to do but there are far more suitable alternatives more readily available so the chances of a modernday Guy Fawkes coming in is slim but because it is impossible to apply common sense they just ban it.

This isn't just in firearms, look at what happened when a discussion on drink driving started to happen, everyone was going to be drinking driving and killing everyone, no that's not what the discussion was but because that's the extreme that's what people jump on so nothing changes.

I often had 8 slabs (2,000) or more of shotgun cartridges here when i was shooting a lot of clays. Nothing to stop me sitting down with a stanley knife and cutting every cartridge in half to get the powder out if i was looking to commit an atrocity.

BattleCorp

tudderone wrote: »

I often had 8 slabs (2,000) or more of shotgun cartridges here when i was shooting a lot of clays. Nothing to stop me sitting down with a stanley knife and cutting every cartridge in half to get the powder out if i was looking to commit an atrocity.

Easier than that. Rent a truck and go for a drive some year that there's a St. Patrick's Day parade. You might have to wait a few years for that though.

ESetter

tudderone wrote: »

What annoys me is things that are commonplace in the shooting sports worldwide are a major no-no's here. Reloading for hunters, pistols for humane dispatch (which are even allowed in the uk), Muzzleloading/blackpowder shooting. "Shure jaysis no, you couldn't have tings like dat here, the sky would fall on us".

Is there any moves at all to get reloading here for "joe soap" or is it dead in the water? Its something i would love to get into.

tudderone

ESetter wrote: »

Is there any moves at all to get reloading here for "joe soap" or is it dead in the water? Its something i would love to get into.

A "Pilot" programme is allowed at the midlands rifle range. I believe it was set up to see how things went, so after that it was kicked down the road in typical irish style.

ESetter

tudderone wrote: »

A "Pilot" programme is allowed at the midlands rifle range. I believe it was set up to see how things went, so after that it was kicked down the road in typical irish style.

its a pity that the gardai cannot see that its allowed in most civilised countries and there are no difficulties. I wonder if the deer stalking groups have ever put their case across? ..by the way i have no agenda..just thinking out loud!

BattleCorp

ESetter wrote: »

its a pity that the gardai cannot see that its allowed in most civilised countries and there are no difficulties. I wonder if the deer stalking groups have ever put their case across? ..by the way i have no agenda..just thinking out loud!

Hand loaded ammo is even more important when it comes to target shooting as it's much more consistent than factory ammo and can actually be tuned (if that's the correct word) to suit a particular gun making it far more accurate.

ESetter

you would think if you are "suitable" to hold a firearm cert, then you would surely be "suitable" to load ammo for your own needs. it probably would not be a cost saving exercise but would be great for building a load for your own rifle. I would love to be able to load 243 85 grain sierra bthp because they cannot be got in any factory load.

Cass

tudderone wrote: »

A "Pilot" programme is allowed at the midlands rifle range. I believe it was set up to see how things went, so after that it was kicked down the road in typical irish style.

I think, after 11 years, we can safely stop calling it a pilot scheme. However it was kicked the road, again, and again, and again ..........................

BattleCorp wrote: »

Hand loaded ammo is even more important when it comes to target shooting as it's much more consistent than factory ammo and can actually be tuned (if that's the correct word) to suit a particular gun making it far more accurate.

True, but it has its drawbacks too.

ESetter wrote: »

I wonder if the deer stalking groups have ever put their case across?

On that note, how many groups, associations or even individuals, i wonder, have applied for a reloading "license" since the pilot scheme was introduced 11 years ago? When was the last application submitted? In other words has anyone else made inroads, on a group/organizational level, to try and show there is an interest enough to warrant this subject being seriously considered?

I don't want to come off as a dick, possibly too late, but if everyone is sitting back and simply waiting for the DoJ to ring them and ask if they want it or for the success of the MNSCI program to filter through to other groups naturally, they'll may be waiting a while unless they put their case forward for needing it.

GolfVI

Cass wrote: »

On that note, how many groups, associations or even individuals, i wonder, have applied for a reloading "license" since the pilot scheme was introduced 11 years ago? When was the last application submitted? In other words has anyone else made inroads, on a group/organizational level, to try and show there is an interest enough to warrant this subject being seriously considered?

I don't want to come off as a dick, possibly too late, but if everyone is sitting back and simply waiting for the DoJ to ring them and ask if they want it or for the success of the MNSCI program to filter through to other groups naturally, they'll may be waiting a while unless they put their case forward for needing it.

To be fair, I've been a member of the midlands for 3-4 years now and attended nearly every weekend when it was open and not a single time has anyone or any staff mentioned or talked about the ability to reload there.

Is it still possible? How does it work ? Who do I ask?

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

True, but it has its drawbacks too.

What drawbacks would there be? The initial cost of the equipment needed to reload? Or do you mean if someone makes a balls of the reloading process and actually destroys their gun/themselves?

ESetter

I get the impression that if a couple of interested groups..deer stalking..target shooters etc could organise themselves properly and went to the DOJ / Gardai with a fully thought out proposal, that reloading could be allowed. Maybe im being too simplistic??

tudderone

ESetter wrote: »

I get the impression that if a couple of interested groups..deer stalking..target shooters etc could organise themselves properly and went to the DOJ / Gardai with a fully thought out proposal, that reloading could be allowed. Maybe im being too simplistic??

Optimistic.

Cass

GolfVI wrote: »

To be fair, I've been a member of the midlands for 3-4 years now and attended nearly every weekend when it was open and not a single time has anyone or any staff mentioned or talked about the ability to reload there.

Have you approached anyone about it? As i said earlier if people are sitting around waiting for an invitation they may be waiting a while.

Is it still possible? How does it work ? Who do I ask?

Yes, still available. Its for the Long range lads (F-Class) so not everyone on the range gets it. Put it this way i can reload for the long range stuff, but not for my hunting rifles even though i'm on the program. Speak to JP or Tony and they'll set you on your path.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

What drawbacks would there be? The initial cost of the equipment needed to reload? Or do you mean if someone makes a balls of the reloading process and actually destroys their gun/themselves?

Again only my opinion so others may disagree.

The initial cost is not off-putting because like everything shooting there is always an initial cost. My idea of drawback is the end result for the workload involved. You could spend weeks even months (and i've done this) developing the absolute perfect load. Now i know for 1,200 yard shooting most people won't ever need that sort of precision but as i don't load for anything under 600 yards i wouldn't know.

There are days of prep, weeks of testing, all of which incur costs. Speaking of costs you save NOTHING by reloading. The first batch using new bras actually costs more than buying factory and the first batch may be a failure. The second batch will be cheaper as you get to reuse your brass but when i say cheaper i mean the cost is about he same as a factory round, maybe slightly cheaper. Every reuse of brass, and assuming you have some components left (bullets/primers/propellant) gets a little cheaper, but then you get to the point you've used up everything and the brass has been used multiple times and needs replacing then you're back up to the initial cost of every component new.

As all reloading has to be done on the range it means hours of sitting in an authorised container doing all this. Remember no at home reloading. I was hesitant to say any of this because it seems i'm making a case for it being too much grief or not worth it. I'm not. Its absolutely worth it but It's an Irish problem. In other countries the components are far, far cheaper. Those able to reload elsewhere can do so at home and because any RFD can stock the components the price of them is cheaper. The same applies to the cost of importing and transporting. At present that cost is spread over the few in F-Class, but imagine that cost spread of thousands even tens of thousands of people. Becomes pennies not pounds of cost per person.

Again, and i must say this so there is no confusion, reloading is good. It can improve the performance of the worse rifle and the lads in the Midlands absolutely need it to remain competitive on the international competition front. Reloading would also be of huge benefit to the "plinker" shooter who only seeks to load a specific round or wants a little more from his set up. However unless more people seek it out and it becomes more widespread as it currently stands there is no reloading for 99.3% of firearm owners and in its current format the program is a lot of work. As it's all i've ever known perhaps my viewpoint is skewered, and the guys in America, UK, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc, etc. that do it at home may say the complete opposite, but when some of them (when they come here for comps) see what we have to do they say are even amazed at the hoops that have to be jumped through and admit it might put them off.

Cass

ESetter wrote: »

I get the impression that if a couple of interested groups..deer stalking..target shooters etc could organise themselves properly and went to the DOJ / Gardai with a fully thought out proposal, that reloading could be allowed. Maybe im being too simplistic??

Not really. There are, as i've said above, certain conditions that have to be met which can limit the people that can actually do it (as opposed to anyone applying for a "license") but applications need to be submitted to keep pressure on the powers that be that its not a forgotten topic and people really do want it to become more available.

Cass

One last thing for all eyes on this thread/my replies.

These are my own opinions and not representative of the views of any group or association. My opinions are based on my experiences within a limited program and is not actually a critique of the program itself, but more so on the way reloading is almost "feared" by the PTB and how it could be so much better if simple and completely traceable changes were made.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Not really. There are, as i've said above, certain conditions that have to be met which can limit the people that can actually do it (as opposed to anyone applying for a "license") but applications need to be submitted to keep pressure on the powers that be that its not a forgotten topic and people really do want it to become more available.

Out of curiosity, where does one find the prescribed form mentioned in the Criminal Justice Act 2006 legislation below? I've never heard tell of it.

40.— The following section is inserted after section 10 of the Principal Act:


“Reloading of ammunition.


10A.—(1) A person (except a registered firearms dealer or the holder of a licence under this section) who reloads ammunition is guilty of an offence.


(2) An application for a licence under this section shall be in the prescribed form, be accompanied by the prescribed fee (if any) and be made to the superintendent of the Garda Síochána of the district in which the applicant resides.


(3) A superintendent shall not grant a licence under this section unless satisfied that the following conditions are complied with:


(a) the applicant holds a firearm certificate;


(b) the reloading of ammunition will not, in the particular circumstances, endanger public safety or security or the peace;


(c) the person has a special need which, in the opinion of the superintendent, is sufficient to justify granting the licence;


(d) the applicant is competent to reload ammunition;


(e) the premises where the reloading is to take place are sufficiently safe and secure for that purpose.


(4) The superintendent may at any time—


(a) attach to the licence such further conditions as he or she considers necessary for the purpose of preventing danger to members of the public or the peace or for ensuring that ammunition is reloaded only to satisfy the special need of the applicant, and


(b) for that purpose vary any of those conditions.

Grizzly 45

Actually , reloading IS permitted here in Ireland. just that the legislation around its manufacture and storage, not to mind importing the "explosive" is based on commercial manufacturing, [and not taking into account a guy wanting to hand load a few rounds for deer season].

The Govts attitude is this. If you can fulfil the conditions of the law as it stands, go right ahead, and if you do manage to do such, your first round of home-produced ammo will be worth about 50 euros!! IOW it's an Irish solution to an Irish problem..Allow it but make it so arduous no one sane can fulfil the requirements.

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

Out of curiosity, where does one find the prescribed form mentioned in the Criminal Justice Act 2006 legislation below? I've never heard tell of it.

That part of the act ASFIK has never been enacted on the statue books.

BattleCorp

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That part of the act ASFIK has never been enacted on the statue books.

Do you mean that the required application form was never developed, or do you mean that that section of the Act was never enacted?

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

Out of curiosity, where does one find the prescribed form mentioned in the Criminal Justice Act 2006 legislation below? I've never heard tell of it.

No idea. I do mine through the range authorisation so never done it on an individual basis.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Actually , reloading IS permitted here in Ireland.

Don't think anyone said it cannot be, so...........................?

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

That part of the act ASFIK has never been enacted on the statue books.

Correct. It was never commenced and then repealed in the 2009 Act (section 44 iirc) along with SI 310/2009.

BattleCorp

Cass wrote: »

Correct. It was never commenced and then repealed in the 2009 Act (section 44 iirc) along with SI 310/2009.

Sorry if I seem dumb with these questions.

So what actual Act or SI makes it an offence to reload without a licence/permit/authorisation?

Or is it legal to reload without authorisation, it's just having the components is the problem?

Grizzly 45

BattleCorp wrote: »

Sorry if I seem dumb with these questions.

So what actual Act or SI makes it an offence to reload without a licence/permit/authorisation?

Or is it legal to reload without authorisation, it's just having the components is the problem?

If I rightly recall, its a " manufacture of ammunition act 2000", or titled something similar around that date. It goes into the whole commercial thing of producing ammo, how when where, what safety regs must be kept and done etc and that is what the state works off in legislation do deal with this. So there is no exemption for anyone working with the same amounts as a package of shotgun shells.


The tools and dies are legal to own, having the bullet heads probably is.
I quantify this, because there was a case back in Donegal[?] in the early 90s where a hunter was charged with" manufacturing ammo". What he was doing was swapping out the bullet heads for a heavier round in a 22/250, which was the only legal option back then for deer.
It was dismissed at the DC level as the judge decided it was modifying the round Not manufacturing it from a spent shell with powder and primers, and all he had was a bullet puller and a seating press for that calibre. Nothing else to do the other stages of making a full round.
So Cevat emptor on that one.

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If I rightly recall, its a " manufacture of ammunition act 2000", or titled something similar around that date. It goes into the whole commercial thing of producing ammo, how when where, what safety regs must be kept and done etc and that is what the state works off in legislation do deal with this. So there is no exemption for anyone working with the same amounts as a package of shotgun shells.


The tools and dies are legal to own, having the bullet heads probably is.
I quantify this, because there was a case back in Donegal[?] in the early 90s where a hunter was charged with" manufacturing ammo". What he was doing was swapping out the bullet heads for a heavier round in a 22/250, which was the only legal option back then for deer.
It was dismissed at the DC level as the judge decided it was modifying the round Not manufacturing it from a spent shell with powder and primers, and all he had was a bullet puller and a seating press for that calibre. Nothing else to do the other stages of making a full round.
So Cevat emptor on that one.

I remember that, the lad was caught twice. I also seem to remember the police threatening him with something and after that it all went quiet. They overstepped the mark, but seeing it was Donegal in the 90's, that wouldn't be unusual.

tudderone

Just seen this on another website, the police chief of Gothenberg in Sweden warning that unless he gets more help, the bombings will continue. Sweden had 250 bombings last year.

Even during the height of the troubles, i don't remember that many. Maybe thats why the police here are so resistant to reloading/blackpowder etc here ?


https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/police-chief-warns-migrant-mafia-gangs-are-turning-sweden-into-gangster-s-paradise-1.1093049

Grizzly 45

tudderone wrote: »

I remember that, the lad was caught twice. I also seem to remember the police threatening him with something and after that it all went quiet. They overstepped the mark but seeing it was Donegal in the '90s, that wouldn't be unusual.

Thanks! I was wondering had I imagined or misremembered that case. As no one else out there in the shooting community seems to have ever heard of it.

Just seen this on another website, the police chief of Gothenberg in Sweden warning that unless he gets more help, the bombings will continue. Sweden had 250 bombings last year.

Even during the height of the troubles, i don't remember that many. Maybe thats why the police here are so resistant to reloading/blackpowder etc here ?

What that article is NOT telling us is the bombs used in Gotheburg or Sweden are Russian, Soviet era black market anti-personnel hand grenades and the Russian version of LAW 72 single-shot bazookas. All coming from the Russian 13th Oblast , Kaliningrad or from Russia itself across the Baltic.

A very far cry from a bit of folded copper pipe with an improvised fuse and a match head or sugar chlorate payload. Yeah, BP can be used too as can nitro powder, but then what's to stop you pulling a bunch of shotgun shells apart to get the same powder amount? Or mixing some stuff up from easily available household chemicals and stuff found in your local Co-op?

tudderone

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Thanks! I was wondering had I imagined or misremembered that case. As no one else out there in the shooting community seems to have ever heard of it.




What that article is NOT telling us is the bombs used in Gotheburg or Sweden are Russian, Soviet era black market anti-personnel hand grenades and the Russian version of LAW 72 single-shot bazookas. All coming from the Russian 13th Oblast , Kaliningrad or from Russia itself across the Baltic.

A very far cry from a bit of folded copper pipe with an improvised fuse and a match head or sugar chlorate payload. Yeah, BP can be used too as can nitro powder, but then what's to stop you pulling a bunch of shotgun shells apart to get the same powder amount? Or mixing some stuff up from easily available household chemicals and stuff found in your local Co-op?

Yes i remember the case in Donegal, pre-internet so probably not easily findable online. I think it was in the Irish shooters Digest. I wonder whatever happened in the end ?

Terrible all the same. I remember reading about Sweden years ago and it seemed to be an ideal country. One lad i know who lives there has bailed out into the countryside from Malmo, he reckoned it had gone to the dogs, and so fast it would make your head spin.

Feisar

He can't have been pulling bullets, sticking a heavier one on and calling it good?!!

Feisar

Cass wrote: »

Again only my opinion so others may disagree.

The initial cost is not off-putting because like everything shooting there is always an initial cost. My idea of drawback is the end result for the workload involved. You could spend weeks even months (and i've done this) developing the absolute perfect load. Now i know for 1,200 yard shooting most people won't ever need that sort of precision but as i don't load for anything under 600 yards i wouldn't know.

There are days of prep, weeks of testing, all of which incur costs. Speaking of costs you save NOTHING by reloading. The first batch using new bras actually costs more than buying factory and the first batch may be a failure. The second batch will be cheaper as you get to reuse your brass but when i say cheaper i mean the cost is about he same as a factory round, maybe slightly cheaper. Every reuse of brass, and assuming you have some components left (bullets/primers/propellant) gets a little cheaper, but then you get to the point you've used up everything and the brass has been used multiple times and needs replacing then you're back up to the initial cost of every component new.

As all reloading has to be done on the range it means hours of sitting in an authorised container doing all this. Remember no at home reloading. I was hesitant to say any of this because it seems i'm making a case for it being too much grief or not worth it. I'm not. Its absolutely worth it but It's an Irish problem. In other countries the components are far, far cheaper. Those able to reload elsewhere can do so at home and because any RFD can stock the components the price of them is cheaper. The same applies to the cost of importing and transporting. At present that cost is spread over the few in F-Class, but imagine that cost spread of thousands even tens of thousands of people. Becomes pennies not pounds of cost per person.

Again, and i must say this so there is no confusion, reloading is good. It can improve the performance of the worse rifle and the lads in the Midlands absolutely need it to remain competitive on the international competition front. Reloading would also be of huge benefit to the "plinker" shooter who only seeks to load a specific round or wants a little more from his set up. However unless more people seek it out and it becomes more widespread as it currently stands there is no reloading for 99.3% of firearm owners and in its current format the program is a lot of work. As it's all i've ever known perhaps my viewpoint is skewered, and the guys in America, UK, Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc, etc. that do it at home may say the complete opposite, but when some of them (when they come here for comps) see what we have to do they say are even amazed at the hoops that have to be jumped through and admit it might put them off.

Thanks for that. It's grand when you see a lad on youtube load up five sets of five then pop out to his back yard and chase an accuracy node. Different ball game for us here! It'd be grand if I could do it at home while she's watching I'm a celebrity but realistically getting to the range takes up a chunk of time at the weekend as it is, never mind sitting in a container!
The results ya see lads getting does be sweet though when you see a load tuning in.

Grizzly 45

Feisar wrote: »

He can't have been pulling bullets, sticking a heavier one on and calling it good?!!

Different times... Ya did what you had to...Remember going out with my dad and a few likely lads here "deer hunting" as a young fellah of 12 with shotguns and the ammo being cut loads or waxed loads:)
So this fellah doing that would have been quite normal for his circumstances.

All said and done,we have come a long way in the last 20+ years in the shooting scene in Ireland.Compared to most EU countries where they are regressing.