Numerous HEO ICT PAS Roles

brownbinman · 03-02-2021 1:15pm

FanofAce wrote: »

Has anyone passed clearance yet?

Similar to proFriendL, PAS have contacted my AP and HR sections. They went straight to my HR as I'm already in civil service, assume for sick leave and the likes

seems to be progressing quickly

agibbons · 04-02-2021 12:06am

trigger26 wrote: »

Results for infra were out yesterday and offers still to be offered

for the Infra competition what does the order or merit mean, if the merit ranking is top 10 is it likely a job offer follows?

FanofAce · 04-02-2021 7:28am

agibbons wrote: »

for the Infra competition what does the order or merit mean, if the merit ranking is top 10 is it likely a job offer follows?

Top 10 is excellent.

Does your message from PAS mention what's going to happen next?

For example I scored in the top 20 for the software development stream and it said at the end of the message the next stage is clearance (evetting + references).

Some competitions will have only 1 position so if you are number 10 , you have to hope that the 9 people ahead don't accept the job. However this ICT competition seems to have lots of positions and if you in the top you almost definitely have a job offer if you pass clearance.

So to answer your question , depending on what you message from PAS says will give you an indication.

trigger26 · 04-02-2021 9:30am

agibbons wrote: »

for the Infra competition what does the order or merit mean, if the merit ranking is top 10 is it likely a job offer follows?

Yes very likely you will be getting an offer with that placement

agibbons · 04-02-2021 9:40am

ok, it looks like the different streams have different requirements at the moment. It essentially said:

With reference to your interview for the above mentioned competition, I am pleased to inform you that you have been placed x on the Order of Merit.

Should circumstances arise that you come under consideration for a position this office will contact you.

I guess its just a matter of waiting, no mention of next stage or clearance.

FanofAce · 04-02-2021 10:02am

agibbons wrote: »

ok, it looks like the different streams have different requirements at the moment. It essentially said:

With reference to your interview for the above mentioned competition, I am pleased to inform you that you have been placed x on the Order of Merit.

Should circumstances arise that you come under consideration for a position this office will contact you.

I guess its just a matter of waiting, no mention of next stage or clearance.

Unfortunately yes it is now a wait for yourself.

Panels last around a year or sometimes more.

Don't hold out for them to contact you if there is another opportunity on your radar that is not CS.

Back in 2017, I got placed on a panel and I was position 2. I never got a call back off them.

So if it doesn't mention clearance or anything you may or may not hear back.

However considering your score and the stream, I would be confident that you would be called in the next few months. I just wanted to share my experience being placed high before so that you don't build up your hopes to quickly.

Again, great result, however you just need to wait it out.

agibbons · 04-02-2021 10:29am

FanofAce wrote: »

Unfortunately yes it is now a wait for yourself.

Panels last around a year or sometimes more.

Don't hold out for them to contact you if there is another opportunity on your radar that is not CS.

Back in 2017, I got placed on a panel and I was position 2. I never got a call back off them.

So if it doesn't mention clearance or anything you may or may not hear back.

However considering your score and the stream, I would be confident that you would be called in the next few months. I just wanted to share my experience being placed high before so that you don't build up your hopes to quickly.

Again, great result, however you just need to wait it out.

great, thanks for sharing your experience and good advice.

coffee table jazz · 04-02-2021 4:55pm

I was hired on the HEO ICT Specialist stream in 2019, I think I came 3rd or 4th on the panel. Anyway it was a promotion from EO. I have a BSc in computer science and years of experience. The department I got assigned to basically doesn't do any ICT work as it is now outsourced to OGCIO.
I really regret taking the job, and it shows how ridiculous the randomly placing people method is. Doing my best to get out of there now but 2 years down the drain not using any skills, I'm just not in a position to quit right now, I wish I was.
Has this happened to anyone else?

agibbons · 08-02-2021 1:15pm

coffee table jazz wrote: »

I was hired on the HEO ICT Specialist stream in 2019, I think I came 3rd or 4th on the panel. Anyway it was a promotion from EO. I have a BSc in computer science and years of experience. The department I got assigned to basically doesn't do any ICT work as it is now outsourced to OGCIO.
I really regret taking the job, and it shows how ridiculous the randomly placing people method is. Doing my best to get out of there now but 2 years down the drain not using any skills, I'm just not in a position to quit right now, I wish I was.
Has this happened to anyone else?

wow, that's very frustrating for you. Its seems like a bit of a lottery. Not the best way to allocate jobs or get the best out of people. its certainly something to consider for anyone offered a role.

TestLink · 08-02-2021 2:05pm

In the 2019 HEO competition, I was in the panel and was assigned to a department where my role was to write SQL Stored Procedures. I had no interest in doing this and I refused the role.

Candidates have no say in which department / area they want to work. So as one of you mentioned earlier "It is pure lottery" to get selection to a department you like, doing what you are interested to do.

Public Jobs should stop this nonsense and give more choice to the candidates.

floorpie · 08-02-2021 3:17pm

Maybe I'm naïve but I'm looking forward to being randomly assigned to a tech/stack/process. It seems like a good opportunity to get experience in an area that you mightn't be able to get otherwise. E.g. you'd likely not get hired in industry to write SQL procedures at a managerial level if you didn't have significant experience doing so already.

Similarly:

The department I got assigned to basically doesn't do any ICT work as it is now outsourced to OGCIO.

I suppose we all have to make the jump to the softer side of IT eventually? At least, I don't want to have to learn/study new fangled front end web dev stacks when I'm near retirement...

coffee table jazz · 08-02-2021 4:18pm

Yes but I think my department just decided they needed their own IT one day, as it had been looked after by another larger department, then hired a few people with an ICT background without really knowing what they were supposed to be doing.
I wasn't given a choice, if I remember correctly I was told I had been successfully placed on the panel, and then soon afterwards I got an email to say I was starting in X dept on X date.
I wouldn't mind being on the soft side of things if I was managing projects etc, but I'm just doing clerical work sometimes and attending meetings here and there where I don't really have any say. It felt more like a decent role until they hired 2 APs above me, and now they pretty much do everything I used to do. I have to take minutes at f*cking meetings, this is where I'm at now, lol.
Anyway I'm going to get out of there one way or another by the end of this year I've decided. I would still get a job in the private sector now but if I stay in this place too long my brain will be total mush and I'll be unemployable.

floorpie · 08-02-2021 7:25pm

coffee table jazz wrote: »

Yes but I think my department just decided they needed their own IT one day, as it had been looked after by another larger department, then hired a few people with an ICT background without really knowing what they were supposed to be doing.
I wasn't given a choice, if I remember correctly I was told I had been successfully placed on the panel, and then soon afterwards I got an email to say I was starting in X dept on X date.
I wouldn't mind being on the soft side of things if I was managing projects etc, but I'm just doing clerical work sometimes and attending meetings here and there where I don't really have any say. It felt more like a decent role until they hired 2 APs above me, and now they pretty much do everything I used to do. I have to take minutes at f*cking meetings, this is where I'm at now, lol.
Anyway I'm going to get out of there one way or another by the end of this year I've decided. I would still get a job in the private sector now but if I stay in this place too long my brain will be total mush and I'll be unemployable.

I'm going to be starting in the CS soon so do you mind me asking...are you kept busy even though it's tasks you don't like, minutes etc? Or would you have free time to do whatever?

coffee table jazz · 08-02-2021 8:12pm

Truth is no, I'm not kept busy. Anything I'm assigned to do I usually have it done quickly, that's how I work. So I spend a lot of time with nothing to do feeling useless. I am studying part time so I have time to do that and it feels like I'm not completely wasting my time right now, so at least there's that.
This isn't a unique position in the civil service from my experience, and from what I've heard from others, but I have had previous positions in the civil service which were crazy busy. My EO job previous to this was the most stressful job I've ever had, but there was some satisfaction in it, I have none of that at all now.
Hopefully you get posted somewhere that actually needs you, I am so annoyed at whoever made the decision to hire me and others, when we clearly weren't needed. Whenever I am leaving I'll certainly let my feelings be known one way or another.

rostalof · 08-02-2021 8:20pm

coffee table jazz wrote: »

Truth is no, I'm not kept busy. Anything I'm assigned to do I usually have it done quickly, that's how I work. So I spend a lot of time with nothing to do feeling useless. I am studying part time so I have time to do that and it feels like I'm not completely wasting my time right now, so at least there's that.
This isn't a unique position in the civil service from my experience, and from what I've heard from others, but I have had previous positions in the civil service which were crazy busy. My EO job previous to this was the most stressful job I've ever had, but there was some satisfaction in it, I have none of that at all now.
Hopefully you get posted somewhere that actually needs you, I am so annoyed at whoever made the decision to hire me and others, when we clearly weren't needed. Whenever I am leaving I'll certainly let my feelings be known one way or another.

It sounds like you've found yourself in a terrible situation. That's not been my experience of the civil service at all though. I'm almost six years in, currently in position number 4 and I've never had any free time at work, there's just not enough hours in the day and that goes for all four positions I've had. My first and current roles are EO ICT and the other 2 were general service positions.

floorpie · 09-02-2021 12:55pm

rostalof wrote: »

It sounds like you've found yourself in a terrible situation. That's not been my experience of the civil service at all though. I'm almost six years in, currently in position number 4 and I've never had any free time at work, there's just not enough hours in the day and that goes for all four positions I've had. My first and current roles are EO ICT and the other 2 were general service positions.

You glad you made the jump from general to ICT? I currently have to decide between EO/AO general and EO/HEO ICT (4 separate competitions) and am unsure what to choose. I've an IT background/quals, but I could see myself burning out with dev when I'm older and am considering a jump the opposite way.

I'd appreciate advice on this from anyone else also.

brownbinman · 09-02-2021 1:54pm

There's nothing to say you can't move to general in few years, especially with promotions. I feel at likes of AP level, you won't necessarily do the work but delegate it to others who can.

I personally can see myself staying in IT within CS if I can get to AP level but otherwise no way

DerastiS · 09-02-2021 2:10pm

rostalof wrote: »

My first and current roles are EO ICT and the other 2 were general service positions.

Is there anywhere that describes the differences between EO, HEO and AO in the public service? I'm currently waiting to hear back about AO in the Dept of Social Protection but it's very slow going and in the end I don't want to end up finding out the role is just not for me anyway. I enjoy anything relating to software development but I wouldn't want to be stuck just doing stored procedures or transition into a pure networking or IT technician role.

floorpie · 09-02-2021 2:23pm

brownbinman wrote: »

There's nothing to say you can't move to general in few years, especially with promotions. I feel at likes of AP level, you won't necessarily do the work but delegate it to others who can.

Thanks!

I personally can see myself staying in IT within CS if I can get to AP level but otherwise no way

This is a reason I'm considering AO general. I see in some documents that there are 40% more generalist APs than specialists (it says this is approximate and exact figures aren't known). Do you think there'd be more opportunities for promotion as a general AO versus from a specialised role? Or does your current role matter?

rostalof · 09-02-2021 2:25pm

DerastiS wrote: »

Is there anywhere that describes the differences between EO, HEO and AO in the public service? I'm currently waiting to hear back about AO in the Dept of Social Protection but it's very slow going and in the end I don't want to end up finding out the role is just not for me anyway. I enjoy anything relating to software development but I wouldn't want to be stuck just doing stored procedures or transition into a pure networking or IT technician role.

This explains it quite simply,

https://cc.careersportal.ie/mce/plugins/filemanager/files/DH/Civil%20Service%20Grade%20Structure.png

EO is below HEO and AO. AO starts off on a lower salary than HEO as it's a graduate recruitment grade from an open competition, whereas HEO is normally a promotional role (from EO or CO). There haven't been general open HEO competitions for many years. The only open HEO competitions these days are HEO ICT competitions. Traditionally you are more likely to have staff reporting to you as a HEO, but it's not unheard of for this to happen as an AO in some departments.

floorpie · 09-02-2021 2:43pm

rostalof wrote: »

AO starts off on a lower salary than HEO as it's a graduate entry from an open competition

For anyone else who was as confused as I was when applying: it's a graduate recruitment grade, meaning that a degree is required to be recruited. It isn't graduate entry meaning it's for people straight out of college and that you'll be hired alongside 21 year olds, like is the case with "graduate programmes" in industry. Very few new entrants to CS, especially at EO or above, are below 25.

I clarify this because I was put off from applying for a while, thinking I'd be too old/experienced for it.

rostalof · 09-02-2021 2:47pm

floorpie wrote: »

You glad you made the jump from general to ICT? I currently have to decide between EO/AO general and EO/HEO ICT (4 separate competitions) and am unsure what to choose. I've an IT background/quals, but I could see myself burning out with dev when I'm older and am considering a jump the opposite way.

I'd appreciate advice on this from anyone else also.

Yes I'm very glad I did. With a technical background, I started in a software dev team (EO ICT) in 2015 and ended up in an audit compliance team because I wanted out of Dublin. Then after a few years I made the move to another regional office, where they have a technical support team, which I would have been happy to join, I asked if this was possible and was refused. As it had been noted I had a flair for a certain 'technical' aspect of the job, (a data analytics software package) I was moved into another audit compliance team, working at a much higher level than previously on much larger cases, where the datasets received for audit were all huge and needed to be interrogated digitally.

In other words I was being drawn further down the tax rabbit hole because it was deemed I had the proper skillset and would be ideal for the job. Before I moved to that location, I with one other guy in the organisation had been lined up to do some other interesting IT based work which would have seen me on the road a day or two a month at most, gathering data from 'customer' PCs or accounting packages. When I heard the training was finally being organised for this, I asked my AP when I was doing it and I was told my PO decided I wouldn't be doing it as I'd be seen as a regional resource and potentially I'd be out of the office too much. Unless I asked, I don't think I ever would have been informed of this decision. That was the final straw for me. I was going to be left to rot doing something I hated as my managers were happy with the results I was producing. I took the bull by the horns and applied for the 2019 EO ICT and moved jobs and departments at the end of 2019. When word got out I was leaving, management asked me if they made a business case for me to move to the IT support team, would I stay put. It's amazing, something that was previously impossible suddenly becomes possible when you're leaving. I left and haven't looked back. Don't get me wrong, some people make the move to that type of job and enjoy it, but it isn't for me.

floorpie · 09-02-2021 2:56pm

rostalof wrote: »

Yes I'm very glad I did. With a technical background, I started in a software dev team (EO ICT) in 2015 and ended up in an audit compliance team because I wanted out of Dublin. Then after a few years I made the move to another regional office, where they have a technical support team, which I would have been happy to join, I asked if this was possible and was refused. As it had been noted I had a flair for a certain 'technical' aspect of the job, (a data analytics software package) I was moved into another audit compliance team, working at a much higher level than previously on much larger cases, where the datasets received for audit were all huge and needed to be interrogated digitally.

In other words I was being drawn further down the tax rabbit hole because it was deemed I had the proper skillset and would be ideal for the job. Before I moved to that location, I with one other guy in the organisation had been lined up to do some other interesting IT based work which would have seen me on the road a day or two a month at most, gathering data from 'customer' PCs or accounting packages. When I heard the training was finally being organised for this, I asked my AP when I was doing it and I was told my PO decided I wouldn't be doing it as I'd be seen as a regional resource and potentially I'd be out of the office too much. Unless I asked, I don't think I ever would have been informed of this decision. That was the final straw for me. I was going to be left to rot doing something I hated as my managers were happy with the results I was producing. I took the bull by the horns and applied for the 2019 EO ICT and moved jobs and departments at the end of 2019. When word got out I was leaving, management asked me if they made a business case for me to move to the IT support team, would I stay put. It's amazing, something that was previously impossible suddenly becomes possible when you're leaving. I left and haven't looked back. Don't get me wrong, some people make the move to that type of job and enjoy it, but it isn't for me.

Thanks a million.

So do I read it that you were in a non-IT role, but your dev skills helped you to excel in the role regardless? I'd hope to stumble into a similar scenario if I took general AO. That's great that you took the leap out and it paid off given that it wasn't for you.

Frankly my main worry about taking an ICT role is that I'd be assigned to tech support or similar, which I finished with many years ago and don't want to do again.

rostalof · 09-02-2021 2:56pm

floorpie wrote: »

Thanks!

This is a reason I'm considering AO general. I see in some documents that there are 40% more generalist APs than specialists (it says this is approximate and exact figures aren't known). Do you think there'd be more opportunities for promotion as a general AO versus from a specialised role? Or does your current role matter?

For promotional competitions it doesn't matter if you were a specialist or general grade. As long as you have at least two years service in a grade below the one the competition relates to and you can demonstrate you possess the competencies required, you can apply and can be successful.

In general CO, EO, EO-ICT, AO, AO-ICT, HEO, HEO-ICT can apply for all promotional competitions, once they have two years total service. Only EO-ICT, AO-ICT or HEO-ICT can apply for internal ICT competitions and open ICT competitions. I should add, officers who have IT qualifications and the required experience in that field can apply for ICT positions too even if they haven't served as an ICT officer.

floorpie · 09-02-2021 2:58pm

rostalof wrote: »

Only EO-ICT, AO-ICT or HEO-ICT can apply for internal ICT competitions and open ICT competitions.

Ahh this I didn't know, and changes things somewhat.....thanks

rostalof · 09-02-2021 2:59pm

floorpie wrote: »

Thanks a million.

So do I read it that you were in a non-IT role, but your dev skills helped you to excel in the role regardless? I'd hope to stumble into a similar scenario if I took general AO. That's great that you took the leap out and it paid off.

Frankly my main worry about taking an ICT role is that I'd be assigned to tech support or similar, which I finished with many years ago and don't want to do again.

I started in an IT role, ended up in general service and moved back to IT. What stream are you in? Unless it's infrastructure it's doubtful you'd end up in a support role. Even in the extremely unlikely event you did, at HEO level you'd likely be managing a team.

rostalof · 09-02-2021 3:00pm

floorpie wrote: »

Ahh this I didn't know, and changes things somewhat.....thanks

You need an IT background for those roles. Generalist roles just require experience.

rostalof · 09-02-2021 3:06pm

floorpie wrote: »

Ahh this I didn't know, and changes things somewhat.....thanks

See my update to the original post.

floorpie · 09-02-2021 3:37pm

rostalof wrote: »

I started in an IT role, ended up in general service and moved back to IT. What stream are you in? Unless it's infrastructure it's doubtful you'd end up in a support role. Even in the extremely unlikely event you did, at HEO level you'd likely be managing a team.

Software Dev stream, but I'm not sure this implies much about how you'll be assigned, judging by posts on boards.ie over the years.

DerastiS · 09-02-2021 8:04pm

rostalof wrote: »

EO is below HEO and AO. AO starts off on a lower salary than HEO as it's a graduate recruitment grade from an open competition, whereas HEO is normally a promotional role (from EO or CO). There haven't been general open HEO competitions for many years. The only open HEO competitions these days are HEO ICT competitions. Traditionally you are more likely to have staff reporting to you as a HEO, but it's not unheard of for this to happen as an AO in some departments.

That makes sense thanks, what I couldn't quite figure out is AO starts really low salary wise but eventually gets to one similar to HEO.

Mostly I just want to be sure I'm trying for the right position. I'm used to private sector jobs where you apply for something specific and you can discuss everything about it at the interview.

Numerous HEO ICT PAS Roles

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