Garda vs Integra

TheNog · 25-11-2008 1:28am

congo_90 wrote: »

3 even 2 garda cars in a narrow estate could block them off while a third hangs back or takes alternative routes from info from other two to block off the offender. It isnt that hard in fairness (not flaming)

2-3 cars would be able to block off an exit no problem but again you are missing the point "The guards would not have known where this car would end up!!".

Also when in a car chase you cannot think like a normal motorist like taking the proper designated entrance/exit to an estate. They will go through a fence/wall, over a field/ditch etc.

If I remember correctly about 10-15 years ago there was an epidemic of joyriding in Dublin. There was talk for a while about banning gardai from chasing these vehicles until people came to the realisation that if Johnny gets away with driving dangerously in an estate, he will continue to do it until he kills himself or someone else. That's why joyriders must be caught and sent to prison. That's why car chases should not be banned.

Would help no end if there was cameras in the patrol cars to show a judge exactly what the manner of driving was like.

drunkmonkey · 25-11-2008 1:33am

flyton5 wrote: »

u'd probably get as far as buying the beer before being attacked by gangs of roving youths celebrating....then u'd have no-one to report it to...so u'd have to go home and drink a sorrowful cup of tea...

Why would I want to report it, what ye gonna do send out a crack squad of commandos to hunt down a roving gang of youths, not bloddy likley....dm would take his whooping, get loaded up on painkillers and have another beer......the last place i'd want to go is down the station...

flyton5 · 25-11-2008 1:34am

TheNog wrote: »

Would help no end if there was cameras in the patrol cars to show a judge exactly what the manner of driving was like.

quite a few of the dublin traffic cars have cameras mounted.....i had the pleasure of taking a spin in one but like someone already said traffic cars aren't used that much in high speed persuits....one of the best videos i saw was taken by a traffic mondeo.....chased a merc down the m50 and lost him just after the red cow roundabout.....at the time they had a skoda octavia RS on trial in dublin castle.....had that been in the chase mayb the outcome wud'v been different....someone needs to hav a word with the minister for justice.....give regular guards more powerful cars instead of just giving them to regional support units.....sigh......to hav a BMW instead of a mondeo.....

TheNog · 25-11-2008 1:34am

dredre wrote: »

unless perhaps the person was elderly or deaf. lights and sirens do not confer safety, they help. 25 cars for one chase is ridiculous whatever way you slice it. i know of guards who will stay on after their shift if there is 'something good happening, like a chase'. its easy to get caught up in the adrenaline rush of a high speed pursuit.

I wasn't saying that 25 cars should be used at all. I was replying to the post that no more than 8 cars should be in a chase. But in fairness if 25 cars were used to bring the car failing to stop to a stop without injuries to bystanders, isn't that the objective?

It is easy to get caught up in the adrenaline I know but I would prefer to have 4 patrol cars and another 2 cars with lads staying on to help out. Car chases don't last forever and the scummer in the car is at some stage going to leg it so plenty of bodis would probably be needed to hnt him down.

flyton5 · 25-11-2008 1:35am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why would I want to report it, what ye gonna do send out a crack squad of commandos to hunt down a roving gang of youths, not bloddy likley....dm would take his whooping, get loaded up on painkillers and have another beer......the last place i'd want to go is down the station...

would i be far from the mark in saying your all talk?? i bet i wouldnt...

Profiler · 25-11-2008 1:42am

B00MSTICK wrote: »

So anyone actually know what he/she did?

And why so many cars chasing them? Surely 3 at most would be able to keep up with him? Basically follow him until he stops/breaks down/crashes whilst relaying his position etc

The driver of the car was the guy who did this :eek:

(not really, but still funny)

drunkmonkey · 25-11-2008 1:45am

flyton5 wrote: »

would i be far from the mark in saying your all talk?? i bet i wouldnt...

the last time I asked a Garda for help was when I was 10 and my bike was stolen, they got it back.....I have a lot of respect for the Garda in general don't read me wrong.., I like your idea of disbanding them, We should try it Christmas Eve until New Year and see what happens....I think your pension would be safe after that;)

Eru · 25-11-2008 1:47am

gatecrash wrote: »

Ok, All Knowing & Ever so Slightly Condescending One, hows about instead of coming across as an arrogant example of the worst that people see in cops, why don't you actually explain what it does mean?

Organised Crime Unit. Im not all knowing but you dont see me making comments about something I know nothing about now do you? Only a fool would associate AGS with the bloody Order of Malta.

drunkmonkey wrote: »

was the integra stolen, what was the reason behind the chase...

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They were in a Resedential area, I'm no detective but it would have made a lot more sense to block all exits rather than play cops and robbers where small children could be playing....Everyone in that video should be done for dangerous driving...

Well you tell us, they are so rare and hard to insure + your own admission that you speed and drive dangerously away from Gardai, surely it was you and the local 14 year olds who think you a god are the cameramen, yes?

Clearly, blocking all residential drivers INSIDE the estate is the safest option. maybe get them to park in such a way that they vecome part of the barrier for you, ahem the driver to crash into? Possible killing a few pensioners for good measure?

Ladies and gentlemen, for any who dont know. Even the Motor forum find drunken monkey to be a bit 'unique' in his opinions and comments. Of course they express themselves more freely towards him but I fear the wrath of Nog too much.

Anyone, most here have never driven a patrol car, were never in a high speed pursuit and have in fact, never been in anything approaching a dangerous encounter with a criminal but yet, and this is the important part, can offer no realistic alternativeto stop, detect and apprehend criminals while still condeming the worldwide, effective and approved method used by Gardai. American sport.....couch....day of the week. On the tip of my tongue

Edited to add: I like this Flyton guy

drunkmonkey · 25-11-2008 1:48am

Profiler wrote: »

The driver of the car was the guy who did this :eek:

(not really, but still funny)

flyton5 · 25-11-2008 1:49am

drunkmonkey wrote: »

the last time I asked a Garda for help was when I was 10 and my bike was stolen, they got it back.....I have a lot of respect for the Garda in general don't read me wrong.., I like your idea of disbanding them, We should try it Christmas Eve until New Year and see what happens....I think your pension would be safe after that;)

christmas eve would be an excellent idea....im not sure the residents of rathgar would be too happy thou as they depend on the guards in rathmines to control the mini riots falling out of a certain pub...after the past pupils of a certain school have a few too many and decide to take up irish dancing on cars...

brayblue24 · 25-11-2008 1:51am

donvito99 wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpHN9diNE64

The greatest garda, if not world chase of all time, Santry circa 1998.
Good down to earth policing:p, and the criminal gets his comeupence in the end, go on the guards...

Thats fookin SAS stuff lads, what a hero...

Have seen that clip before. It's from South Africa.

TheNog · 25-11-2008 1:56am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I fear the wrath of Nog.

Ezekiel 25:17. "The Path of the Righteous Man Is Beset on All Sides by Theinequities of the Selfish and the Tyranny of Evil Men."

flyton5 · 25-11-2008 2:01am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Edited to add: I like this Flyton guy

thats the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me.....my parents dont love me.....they were ashamed of my ambition to be a guard.....i thought it was wierd because they're both guards....hmmmm....maybe they were just ashamed of me full stop......

Eru · 25-11-2008 2:02am

brayblue24 wrote: »

Have seen that clip before. It's from South Africa.

No but, it says its Santry Gardai on Youtube so thats means its true! You know, like most of the Garda clips that show cunning Gardai using cars and uniforms with 'police' on them and dashcams and shotguns

yayamark · 25-11-2008 2:27am

Gil_Dub wrote: »

2002, Garda Tighe and Padden in a collision with a stolen vehicle on the Stillorgan dual carriageway.

Rest in peace.

They didnt crash they were crashed into.

Trojan911 · 25-11-2008 10:01am

deadwood wrote: »

The helicopter's useless on speed bumps.

Really, with that type of reply it does not surprise me the AGS comes under so much criticism. You don't appear to grasp the seriousness of the potential dangers posed by all involved.

That pursuit should have been limited to two vehicles with the deployment of the helicopter to monitor from the sky & direct other vehicles to areas where stinger could be deployed or where it could be stopped safely away from a residential estate. If the helicopter was not available then the pursuit should have been called off in the interests of safety to all, IMEO.

<SNIP>

drunkmonkey · 25-11-2008 10:48am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Well you tell us, they are so rare and hard to insure + your own admission that you speed and drive dangerously away from Gardai,

thanks for the introduction, if you read my statement you'll notice I had some justification in that instance as I was the one going to get nailed for someone elses wrong doing, i'd like to know what you would have done in that scenario...
You call Quinn direct and ask them for a quote on an Evo, tell them your 21 and see how far you get, heck tell them your 30 and see will they still quote you.....

ps.
am I now officaly under surveillance, it seems like it?:rolleyes:

Gavin · 25-11-2008 11:23am

Trojan911 wrote: »

You don't appear to grasp the seriousness of the potential dangers posed by all involved.

So you think a qualified Garda doesn't grasp the seriousness of a high speed pursuit ? The same Garda who probably has to drive at high speeds after some loon, who will have to take responsibility if he hits someone or something ? He made a joke, it was obviously a joke, I actually laughed at it !

That pursuit should have been limited to two vehicles with the deployment of the helicopter to monitor from the sky & direct other vehicles to areas where stinger could be deployed or where it could be stopped safely away from a residential estate. If the helicopter was not available then the pursuit should have been called off in the interests of safety to all, IMEO.

Yeah I watch road wars sometimes too, pretty good innit ! Not a fan of Conrad, but the rest are ok. Can't beat the aul chopper and stinger ! I'm always impressed how they yank it back so quickly that the chasing cars don't get done.

Calling it off depends doesn't it. It depends on a lot of things. What did they do? As karlito said, if they had someone in the boot, you think it should have been called off ?

You are claiming an educated opinion, what is your education in the matter?

This unacceptable incident cost a person their life when it involved a speeding patrol car, which was going to the wrong address.

What exactly is your point with this? That high speed driving is risky?

Satan Polaroid · 25-11-2008 12:40pm

Too much bickering and not enough debate....

It is clear that Gardaí need more training in the use of stingers, driving and tactics.

It is also clear that Gardaí need better readily available equipment in the form of stingers, cars and everything else.

Instead of blaming the Gardaí, how about blaming the Government for the lack of training, equipment and resources?

We're doing the best we can with what we have.

Trojan911 · 25-11-2008 12:46pm

Verb wrote: »

So you think a qualified Garda doesn't grasp the seriousness of a high speed pursuit ?

Qualified in what? Vehicle pusuit? Is He/She? You do not have to be a Garda to grasp the seriousness or potential dangers of a high speed pursuit.

Verb wrote: »

Yeah I watch road wars sometimes too, pretty good innit ! Not a fan of Conrad, but the rest are ok. Can't beat the aul chopper and stinger ! I'm always impressed how they yank it back so quickly that the chasing cars don't get done.

Never watched the show, so I haven't the first clue what you are on about.

Verb wrote: »

Calling it off depends doesn't it. It depends on a lot of things. What did they do? As karlito said, if they had someone in the boot, you think it should have been called off ?

If it poses a danger to the public then yes call it off irrespective, now, driving several cars fast through a residential estate at I believe 3pm, warrants criticism.

Well, did they have someone in the boot? Let me take a wild stab at it & say, hmmmm... No, they didn't. Like I asked before, where was the helicopter?

Verb wrote: »

You are claiming an educated opinion, what is your education in the matter?

Many, many fabulous years in the Met, learning many skills, including vehicle pursuit. Your opinion is stemmed from same? You've been there? or just from what you see & hear on the telly/internet and then speculate?

Verb wrote: »

What exactly is your point with this? That high speed driving is risky?

A totally innocent person is dead. All for what? Not only is it risky but dangerous.
________________

So Verb, I hope that clears up a few of your questions. The long & short of it is, public safety. Your safety, my safety & of course, the officers concerned. It's all great being there, the chase, the adrenoline buzz, the capture.

However when the wheel comes off & people are injured or killed, it's a different story.

Are all vehicle pursuits really necessary ? When & Where do you draw the line? Do we have to wait for more innocent fatalities?

Gavin · 25-11-2008 1:19pm

Trojan911 wrote: »

Qualified in what? Vehicle pusuit? Is He/She? You do not have to be a Garda to grasp the seriousness or potential dangers of a high speed pursuit.

True. Which was my point.

Many, many fabulous years in the Met, learning many skills, including vehicle pursuit. Your opinion is stemmed from same? You've been there? or just from what you see & hear on the telly/internet and then speculate?

I'm an uninformed rube I'm afraid. oh wait a sec

You do not have to be a Garda to grasp the seriousness or potential dangers of a high speed pursuit.

A totally innocent person is dead. All for what? Not only is it risky but dangerous.

That was an unfortunate accident which seemingly was due to poor equipment maintenance.

Are all vehicle pursuits really necessary ? When & Where do you draw the line? Do we have to wait for more innocent fatalities?

My point is that this judgement was obviously made by the Gardai given the information available to them and their awareness of the environment. Information that you and I don't have so second guessing is just that, guessing.

Given that there were 7 cars involved, I can only assume that someone of reasonable seniority was aware and chose to allow the chase to continue. Would that be the case ?

brayblue24 · 25-11-2008 1:36pm

I have lurked on this since the start but feel I must now add my tuppence worth.

Properly trained Garda drivers are trained to be alert to all road conditions and possibilities. Successful completion of the training course is rated highly enough to suffice as entry to the Institute of Advanced Motorists without the need to take their separate tests. That is why I have such a problem with "Chief's Permission", a situation where the holding of a full driving licence allows one to drive a patrol car in emergency situations. It is a cheap alternative to proper training and is unfair on the driver and their observer and also to the general public. As long as those drivers were qualified drivers then have no doubt they are skilled, competent drivers.

As an earlier poster said it was not the Gardai who chose to drive that route-it was the driver of the Integra.

Other posters wake up and smell the roses as Verb says. Those UK and US shows are EDITED. The same could be done here in a production room.

Most likely nobody here (myself included) knows what that Integra did but if that pursuit was allowed to continue then it was not a minor matter. The policy in place is stringent regarding pursuits and any driver of a patrol car who chooses to ignore a direction to cease in a pursuit is leaving themselves wide open-in a major way.

Those Garda detractors posting (you know who you are) I ask you this- if the driver of that car had raped or murdered a member of your family would you have any problem with that pursuit or would it suffice if instead the car crew told you they had an idea who he was and instead they would arrest him maybe after the weekend? No, I didn't think so.

Trojan911 · 25-11-2008 2:08pm

Verb wrote: »

That was an unfortunate accident which seemingly was due to poor equipment maintenance.

The collision was the result of the condition of the tyres, the condition of the road surface and the speed at which the patrol car was travelling at. Source

Verb wrote: »

Given that there were 7 cars involved, I can only assume that someone of reasonable seniority was aware and chose to allow the chase to continue. Would that be the case ?

It would appear so. But the questions that spring to my mind would be,

1. Out of all those vehicles in pursuit, how many drivers were qualified to engage?

2. Why were so many vehicles engaged in that pursuit?

3. Where was the helicopter?

We all want AGS to do a great job, but as correctly pointed out in a previous post, more training, money & equipment is needed to accomplish this.

Relevant · 25-11-2008 2:18pm

Trojan911 wrote: »

3. Where was the helicopter?

On another call, undergoing maintenance, grounded due to weather, pursuit may have been close to airport and as such in a no fly zone...

bunk · 25-11-2008 2:36pm

Trojan911 wrote: »

It would appear so. But the questions that spring to my mind would be,

1. Out of all those vehicles in pursuit, how many drivers were qualified to engage?

2. Why were so many vehicles engaged in that pursuit?

3. Where was the helicopter?

We all want AGS to do a great job, but as correctly pointed out in a previous post, more training, money & equipment is needed to accomplish this.

before i go any further, i am a member and i have the standard car course done, so here it goes.

1. more than likely none, wether they have courses done or not, there is no pursuit training given whatsoever in the standard or advanced course, there is a completly seperate course for pursuit training mainly for specialist units.

2. from my experience it seems to be the more the merrier when it comes to pursuits, there is no set procedure for initiating or calling off pursuits, its at the members discretion unless the inspector from control terminates the pursuit.

3. i was'nt there so dont know. but i believe theres still are only 2 helicopters and definatly one plane for the whole country, also how long had this chase been going on when this was filmed, how long did it last after, it can take approx 20 minutes to get the helicoptor up and to your position at best and thats when its available.

not havin a go, just my two cents on the questions you asked.

Trojan911 · 25-11-2008 5:12pm

brayblue24 wrote: »

Most likely nobody here (myself included) knows what that Integra did but if that pursuit was allowed to continue then it was not a minor matter.

Define minor. What, in your opinion, would give grounds for this particular pursuit?

brayblue24 wrote: »

Those Garda detractors posting (you know who you are) I ask you this- if the driver of that car had raped or murdered a member of your family would you have any problem with that pursuit or would it suffice if instead the car crew told you they had an idea who he was and instead they would arrest him maybe after the weekend? No, I didn't think so.

Ok, now flip the coin over to the other side. A member of your family is knocked down by a Garda car responding to, what I would describe, as a minor call & subsequently dies as a result of it. Oh and by the way, they were going to the wrong address, and it wouldn't have happened if they had been given the correct address.

Are you saying you wouldn't question this and demand answers. No, I don't think so.

I'm not having a pop but think about it. What justifies this type of driving?

brayblue24 · 25-11-2008 5:35pm

1. It's not my call to define "minor" that's why the Inspector in control is on the money he/she is

<SNIP>

As regards having a pop no problem, I believe you have a point to make and it's your call how you make it. Your posts are relevant and accepted by me as such. No offence taken here mate.

Trojan911 · 25-11-2008 6:01pm

brayblue24 wrote: »

1. It's not my call to define "minor" that's why the Inspector in control is on the money he/she is

2. I won't speak of that collision here or elsewhere and I don't think it's appropriate for anybody else to do so either as it is my understanding that it's not dealt with yet. I am, however, open to contradiction on that. Either way I consider it as appropriate to talk about that as I do when anybody is killed by way of a traffic accident where I wasn't there to witness it first hand.

As regards having a pop no problem, I believe you have a point to make and it's your call how you make it. Your posts are relevant and accepted by me as such. No offence taken here mate.

No prob, what I have sourced re the death is already in the public domain and was used as an example of what can & did happen and very well may happen again in the future.

However, the questions still stand to yourself and others (if you wish to answer them), what, in your opinion, would give grounds for this particular pursuit?

What do you feel justifies several police vehicles both marked & unmarked, driving at speed, through a residential estate during the afternoon?

The previous responses are interesting on what people think from both sides of the fence.

Turner · 25-11-2008 6:39pm

In the last few years (2-3) i know personally of approx 5 deaths that ocurred during garda pursuits. All of which the escaping driver or passengers were the ones killed.

If the media dont get a hold of the fact the gardai were in pursuit the gardai are not very quick to release it. They have to now inform the Garda Ombudsman however but they are not obliged to release it to the media.

Family members always want to keep it quiet as well. Unless a reporter happens to stumble into the public inquest in the coroners court it normally gets kept firmly swept under the carpet by the family.

Pursuits are very dangerous, we are just lucky in this country that due to the high level of training that our trained garda drivers get we have seen very few civillian deaths. Although they are not trained in pursuit scenarios they are trained to keep their vehicle on the road and know their limits and follow until the escaping driver is identified or crashes.

In reality Gardai on Chiefs permission are not allowed engage in pursuits, although it is not law it is a disciplinary offence should something go wrong and somebody innocent gets injured or killed.

brayblue24 · 25-11-2008 7:22pm

Personally I am hugely reluctant to use lights and sirens for reasons of safety and always have been. I do not engage in pursuit of stolen vehicles. I would pursue a car that had been involved in a serious criminal act and by that I mean robbery, serious assault etc or others of that gravity. It's not worth it to anyone otherwise. That's my opinion anyhoo.

Hope that answers, Trojan.

Eru · 25-11-2008 7:30pm

Trojan911 wrote: »

Really, with that type of reply it does not surprise me the AGS comes under so much criticism. You don't appear to grasp the seriousness of the potential dangers posed by all involved.

Im sure you have much more experience and training in high speed driving

Trojan911 wrote: »

That pursuit should have been limited to two vehicles with the deployment of the helicopter to monitor from the sky & direct other vehicles to areas where stinger could be deployed or where it could be stopped safely away from a residential estate. If the helicopter was not available then the pursuit should have been called off in the interests of safety to all, IMEO.

Good call, let criminals do what they want. Only stop decent drivers who arent breaking the law. Crime would go way down, well actually it wouldnt just recorded arrests and prosecutions would.

What about armed suspects? Allowed go on their merry way if they ignore our polite requests to hand over the weapon?

You obviously dont recall the high court decision that Gardai are responsible for ensuring peoples safety from criminals once they become aware of criminal activity. Or in fact, professional negligence.

Trojan911 wrote: »

This unacceptable incident cost a person their life when it involved a speeding patrol car, which was going to the wrong address.

Whats the address got to do with anything? And if you recall, it was the state of the vehicle and not the driver that was blamed.

As for your question, how in gods name are we supposed to know why a criminal is fleeing from us? It could be because his tax is out or because hes a wanted IRA man smuggling drugs and guns to Limerick. We dont know until afterwards

Eru · 25-11-2008 7:36pm

Trojan911 wrote: »

Many, many fabulous years in the Met, learning many skills, including vehicle pursuit.

How long have reserves being given advanced driver training?

donvito99 · 25-11-2008 9:18pm

flyton5 wrote: »

christmas eve would be an excellent idea....im not sure the residents of rathgar would be too happy thou as they depend on the guards in rathmines to control the mini riots falling out of a certain pub...after the past pupils of a certain school have a few too many and decide to take up irish dancing on cars...

Which pub, I live in da area, The Rathmines inn, Tramway, Days Hotel, Slatterys?

Traumadoc · 25-11-2008 10:47pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

You obviously dont recall the high court decision that Gardai are responsible for ensuring peoples safety from criminals once they become aware of criminal activity. Or in fact, professional negligence.

I think the point is that by engaging in a high speed chase, the police are putting peoples lives in danger.

It is a difficult call, but that is why many police forces around the world have banned or restricted them.

http://www.kristieslaw.org/

Trojan911 · 25-11-2008 11:23pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Good call, let criminals do what they want.

They appear to be doing just that anyway.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Whats the address got to do with anything?

Read the article carefully again.

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

And if you recall, it was the state of the vehicle and not the driver that was blamed.

Interesting point. Was the officer driving a defective vehicle then? Was it not inspected by the officer prior to signing it out for the tour of duty?

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

As for your question, how in gods name are we supposed to know why a criminal is fleeing from us? It could be because his tax is out or because hes a wanted IRA man smuggling drugs and guns to Limerick. We dont know until afterwards

The questions were:

What, in your opinion, would give grounds for this particular pursuit?

What do you feel justifies several police vehicles both marked & unmarked, driving at speed, through a residential estate during the afternoon?

Not: Why was that car apparently fleeing from AGS?

Eru · 25-11-2008 11:26pm

Traumadoc wrote: »

I think the point is that by engaging in a high speed chase, the police are putting peoples lives in danger.

It is a difficult call, but that is why many police forces around the world have banned or restricted them.

http://www.kristieslaw.org/

I dont see that on that website or the sites that this one links to.

No one wants us to chase criminals? Fair enough but I want you all to remember this when a criminal that could have been caught isnt and goes on to commit crime and hurt innocent people.

In fact I see Trojan has just followed up by stating criminals are running around freely but yet, has posted multiple times condeming Garda efforts to apprehend a criminal. You sir, are a hypocrite

Trojan911 · 25-11-2008 11:30pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

How long have reserves being given advanced driver training?

How long have you been in charge of flipping the eggs in the catering dept? Actually no, clarify your last as it makes no sense.

Satan Polaroid · 25-11-2008 11:42pm

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I dont see that on that website or the sites that this one links to.

No one wants us to chase criminals? Fair enough but I want you all to remember this when a criminal that could have been caught isnt and goes on to commit crime and hurt innocent people.

In fact I see Trojan has just followed up by stating criminals are running around freely but yet, has posted multiple times condeming Garda efforts to apprehend a criminal. You sir, are a hypocrite

Can't anyone question Garda strategy or behaviour without you throwing the toys out of the pram?

We will never learn unless we can take on board constructive criticism, analyse it and see where we can improve.

oeb · 25-11-2008 11:42pm

Jumping in a little bit late in this thread, but some of the naivety of some of the people in this thread seems shocking. If this scum bag in the integra had avoided the pursuit (because AGS had lets say refused to follow him into the estate for safety reasons), and he had proceeded to knock down a child, or shoot someone half an hour later, you would be the exact same people coming here and posting: "Why did they not follow him, this person is dead because they don't do their job properly, waste of tax payers money blah blah blah blah".

The AGS in Ireland are understaffed, they are illequipped and they do not have the same level of training (re:persuit etc) as some of the other police forces around the world, but they are a government agency, and they have to rely on government funding for these things. And of course, if the government decided to drop another billion on the AGS you would be the same people in here whining about how teachers are getting fired when another billion is being wasted on the AGS.

Where does all this come from? Do you feel that you are victimised by the guards or something? These lads are only doing their jobs. The vast majority of garda that I have met in the past have worked hard at breaking their balls for eejits who seem to think the cops are the ones to worry about. Show a bit of respect, and have a bit of faith that someone who does this for a living probably has a bit better judgement in most scenarios like this than some random bloke on the internet.

But of course I could be wrong, and I'm sure the next crime that is stopped by the actions of AGS (That meets your standards of course) will see you all rushing here to post big long threads about how good they are at their jobs, and how they should all get medals.

They do a thankless job lads.

Eru · 26-11-2008 12:07am

oeb wrote: »

Jumping in a little bit late in this thread, but some of the naivety of some of the people in this thread seems shocking. If this scum bag in the integra had avoided the pursuit (because AGS had lets say refused to follow him into the estate for safety reasons), and he had proceeded to knock down a child, or shoot someone half an hour later, you would be the exact same people coming here and posting: "Why did they not follow him, this person is dead because they don't do their job properly, waste of tax payers money blah blah blah blah".

The AGS in Ireland are understaffed, they are illequipped and they do not have the same level of training (re:persuit etc) as some of the other police forces around the world, but they are a government agency, and they have to rely on government funding for these things. And of course, if the government decided to drop another billion on the AGS you would be the same people in here whining about how teachers are getting fired when another billion is being wasted on the AGS.

Where does all this come from? Do you feel that you are victimised by the guards or something? These lads are only doing their jobs. The vast majority of garda that I have met in the past have worked hard at breaking their balls for eejits who seem to think the cops are the ones to worry about. Show a bit of respect, and have a bit of faith that someone who does this for a living probably has a bit better judgement in most scenarios like this than some random bloke on the internet.

But of course I could be wrong, and I'm sure the next crime that is stopped by the actions of AGS (That meets your standards of course) will see you all rushing here to post big long threads about how good they are at their jobs, and how they should all get medals.

They do a thankless job lads.

Thats my point. No one is being constructive just naive.

Trojan,
You were a reserve in the MET. I was under the belief that reserves do not drive.

Trojan911 · 26-11-2008 12:17am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

Trojan,
You were a reserve in the MET. I was under the belief that reserves do not drive.

Sweeping statement, can you back that up with proof?

Traumadoc · 26-11-2008 12:19am

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

I dont see that on that website or the sites that this one links to.

No one wants us to chase criminals? Fair enough but I want you all to remember this when a criminal that could have been caught isnt and goes on to commit crime and hurt innocent people.

I said it was a tough call, there are lots of times when garda cannot apprehend criminals, ( look at all the media comments about Limerick)but you nearly always get them in the end.
You do have a duty to protect the innocent. It is a balance.
If no one is in control of a 25 car chase who decides it is too dangerous to continue, or do you feel it is never too dangerous?

metman · 26-11-2008 12:41am

Traumadoc wrote: »

If no one is in control of a 25 car chase who decides it is too dangerous to continue, or do you feel it is never too dangerous?

Pursuits are tightly controlled here for the reasons raised in this thread. More often than not we'll let a suspect vehicle go rather than putting other road users or pedestrians at risk.

On account of the dangers involved, even response trained drivers can only engage in the initial phase of a pursuit and must call for specialist pursuit trained drivers to take over. If none are available, a pursuit will be called off. If the air support unit is available it will take control of the pursuit as 'ground commander' and can downlink footage of the pursuit to the Yard where it will be up to the Duty Inspector there to make a decision as to whether to allow the pursuit or terminate.

I can't comment on the pursuit shown in the footage, as I wasn't privy to the circumstances, but such high-speed 'car-chases' can be granted permission to continue pursuit, it all depends on the circumstances.

deadwood · 26-11-2008 12:56am

Trojan911 wrote: »

Really, with that type of reply it does not surprise me the AGS comes under so much criticism. You don't appear to grasp the seriousness of the potential dangers posed by all involved.

I grasp the seriousness of my job every day I go into work to police a large area, on my own, day and night equipped with less than a security guard in a decent shopping mall.

I grasp the seriousness every time I attend a traffic collision, where idiots like these guys wrap themselves around a tree or hurt an innocent bystander. I grasp the seriousness of these situations when I have to knock on a strangers door to tell them their child is in a hospital or morgue.

I grasp the seriousness of confronting drunken yobs while the nearest help will take the longest 10 minutes you will ever sweat, realising the yobs are equipped better than me.

Unfortunately, there is always someone who, with no knowledge of the complete story, will jump at the chance to criticise us. These are often the same people who will complain most about inaction, depending on their audience.

I post here to interract with other members of Emergency Services, who deal with the wrong end of this great nation every day instead of doing a better paid, safer and easier job that might mean i'll get to spend a Christmas day with my child some day.

If I make an innapropriate comment, the mods and other E.S. members will clip my wings.

I'm happy to discuss cetain matters with anyone and I encourage healthy debate. I think it is important, especially, to involve the public in our discussions. A little levity doesn't hurt.

Now, you've made me go a whole post without a smart comment. Happy?

Trojan911 · 26-11-2008 1:10am

deadwood wrote: »

Now, you've made me go a whole post without a smart comment. Happy?

Why should that make me happy? Good to see you can actually be serious and great to see you doing so much grasping. Keep it up.

metman · 26-11-2008 1:30am

Traumadoc wrote: »

I think the point is that by engaging in a high speed chase, the police are putting peoples lives in danger.

It is a difficult call, but that is why many police forces around the world have banned or restricted them.

http://www.kristieslaw.org/

Doc, I am familiar with the kristieslaw site and here, as you say, some forces have curtailed pursuits and even 999 response on blues and twos for the reasons raised on that site. These forces are, however, by far in the minority.

In my view, to remove pursuits as a tactical option in the policing armoury is to effectively surrender the roads to mobile criminals and would do nothing more than encourage even more to chance their arm at playing cat and mouse with roads policing units.

As the police, we have a sworn duty to confront and tackle criminals, and this includes on the roads. Provided checks and balances are in place, as outlined in my previous post, I do not see why pursuits cannot continue to be used successfully as a tactic in apprehending those who display abject contempt for other road users and law abiding people in general.

I think a ban on police pursuing criminals would give out the wrong signal and ultimately result in more harm than it would prevent.

flyton5 · 26-11-2008 1:59am

This trojan guy is getting on my wick.....seems to be posting just to get a rise out of particular people.....seems to me that he has a problem with the guards and is looking for any excuse to have a go....maybe he could clarify if he thorougly inspects his car every time he decides to drive it.....maybe he could get off the 'garda bashing' band wagon and do something constructive with his time......unfortunately the guards cant do anything these days without people deciding that it's been done wrong....these armchair warriors will always see better ways of doing a guards job or see ways of criticising them for doing their job....bit of a catch 22 if you ask me......

btw....Trojan.....whats your problem with AGS?? could clear up quite a few things.....

deadwood · 26-11-2008 2:01am

Sorry for getting back on topic (who, me?).

Reading back there, a few posts enquired why the Helicopter wasn't deployed in this pursuit.
Was this in the vicinity of the airport?

Jemmy · 26-11-2008 2:04am

ok not quite clear, sorry but what is the AGS?

djtechnics1210 · 26-11-2008 2:04am

Plus helicopter takes a long time for to get on scene if it is in Baldonnell

Garda vs Integra

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