"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 6 "The Iron Throne" - Spoilers post 2 forw

ThunbergsAreGo · 20-05-2019 12:03pm

leggo wrote: »

What a weird thing to say. I've had misgivings about this season: Lyanna killing the giant, Jon just giving away Ghost etc. I just haven't followed along the mob mentality and gone to town on a show I like that the rest of the world is fine with. Don't believe me?

https://twitter.com/binge_mode/status/1130298223258509312

Is "its fine" not the worst thing to say?

I know that the case when I ask my wife

:D

WhiteMemento9 · 20-05-2019 12:04pm

The train crash that has been this season has created an empty, hollow feeling watching it all unfold because at this point I just don't really care. Bored is probably the best description of watching that episode.

leggo · 20-05-2019 12:08pm

naughtb4 wrote: »

Is "its fine" not the worst thing to say?

I know that the case when I ask my wife :D

That's "I'm fine" and your stock response to the missus when she says it is, "Good, you should be."

spurious · 20-05-2019 12:09pm

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

Bored is probably the best description of watching that episode.

Must agree with this. It was the only episode of the whole series I caught myself checking how much is left (and not in a good way). Really disappointing last episode.

johnny_ultimate · 20-05-2019 12:09pm

While I’m not convinced ‘more episodes’ is the definitive solution to the issues that have hit the series in recent seasons, I do have to give credit to the creative team here for episode two of this season. That was an example of fan service at its best - getting the characters together in one space and having them interact in ways that felt genuine and earned. It was unhurried and all the better for it, but still drenched in a feeling of unease and impending doom. If the subsequent episodes couldn’t quite live up to it, it was nonetheless a final reminder of just how good this show could be.

alchemist33 · 20-05-2019 12:10pm

leggo wrote: »

What a weird thing to say. I've had misgivings about this season: Lyanna killing the giant, Jon just giving away Ghost etc. I just haven't followed along the mob mentality and gone to town on a show I like that the rest of the world is fine with. Don't believe me?

https://twitter.com/binge_mode/status/1130298223258509312

That's the majority of a 20,000 person vote of GoT fans saying they loved or thought the finale was fine. Just 14% share the majority opinion on here, meaning the majority opinion on here is less shared than the anti-repeal or anti-gay marriage votes in Ireland. I mean, sorry, it just became the cool thing to slate this season here. Maybe it's because Irish people can't hack a 3am bedtime and are cranky...who knows? But trying to call me out publicly for stating a majority opinion is weird behaviour dude.

As for my own thoughts on the finale...

I wasn't mad on 'Bran the Broken' tbh and I'm still not. I could've been but I wish they gave that twist a bit more runway. Deciding now that "stories" are the most important thing, having never been mentioned before, is very random. It's a questionable plot choice but I guess it was the one GRRM dictated for them. I'd find it funny if he went a totally different way and the choice was made just to mess the show up. But we'll likely never know. The greatest conman of our time, and I don't mean that as an insult. If they'd have gone along the route of "cripples, bastards and broken things" even, that would've been a theme of the show that had pre-established. But no. What matters now are 'stories' for some reason. Okay.

Having said that, I did like them actually addressing that there was a realm outside of the main characters and bringing back some old faces. Edmure nominating himself made me laugh a LOT, I'm so happy they made time for that. I think that whole scene and decision-making process would've made for a fantastic full, extended episode. But oh well, we got what we got...

LOVED everything up until that scene. I've went through why I loved Jon killing Dany already. Having elongated conversations and scenes with room to breathe build to it was also refreshing considering the rushed pace of the season.

Happy with everyone who survived. Happy with the roles they're filling. Jon being a tragic hero but stumbling into a happy ending for him anyway is fitting. I found it ballsy they made Sansa a bit power hungry towards the end, you could tell she was waiting for everyone to nominate her for the throne (and she should've been; by far the most qualified character), but an independent North makes sense too. Sure I could be a knob and nitpick, but would "The Prince of Dorne is actually really good at budgeting" have been a better ending than having the small counsel of faces we know having the craic? Glad they did the ASOIAF nod with Sam. But it also dispels the myth that Sam is GRRM's avatar: because at least he can finish a ****ing book.

It's more like 37% agree with most here. And "fine" is nothing to be proud of either.

leggo · 20-05-2019 12:18pm

Clareman wrote: »

So Jon starts the show wanting to join the Night Watch which is he able to join then get out of but his punishment is to go back to it? Grey Worm is happy out killing people that fought in another army rather than hold them as prisioners but he's ok keeping the killer of his queen as a priosioner as well as someone else who was sentenced to die.

There are things you could nitpick about but these aren't really two of them. If he'd have killed the King of the North while the Northmen were still there, that's possibly an instant war with the people who just helped them take the city. It's a decision WAY beyond his paygrade. Same with Tyrion. Dany hadn't sentenced him to die yet, though we can reasonably assume that's how it would've ended had she lived. All she'd said to Greyworm was "Take him." He did.

I mean IF you're going to nitpick, then look at one step beyond that: how did they convene the lords of the realm? How did they even come to that decision? Can the Unsullied or Dothraki write to send ravens? Do they even know who Robin Arryn is? If so, how? But not killing Jon or Tyrion is fine. They're soldiers known for meticulously following orders, they'll die if you order them to like, who ordered them to kill those people?

WhiteMemento9 · 20-05-2019 12:20pm

In isolation the episode is fine. Given the corner in which the show has painted itself, it produces an episode that was all that could really be expected.

Damning with faint praise comes with mind when you see 'It was fine'.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

As an aside, here's one of the best pieces of writing about the season I've read, from writer & academic Zeynep Tufekci. Written before this episode, but IMO takes a fascinating alternative perspective on the show's shift in approach: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/

I think that completely nails why the show has unravelled so badly.

Hardtochoose · 20-05-2019 12:23pm

Boring episode . Found myself looking at my phone for large parts of it. Awful end to what started out as a brilliant tv show.

leggo · 20-05-2019 12:28pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

It's more like 37% agree with most here.

Congratulations, at a push that makes it 4% more than the Repeal vote and still less than the marriage equality vote. Still a vast minority opinion. :pac:

I'm not even singing the episode's praises myself, I had issues with it that I've outlined. I just find it gas when people need their opinion validated or join in mob mentality. Like this stuff is hilarious to me...

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

Damning with faint praise comes with mind when you see 'It was fine'.

The people who voted could've easily just clicked "I was disappointed" or that they hated it. They were given four options and had the freedom to choose whichever they like, from Extremely Positive to Positive to Negative to Extremely Negative. The majority chose Positive. But, because it doesn't represent your opinion, you're ignoring that and claiming "Oh when they clicked that they REALLY meant 'it was bad' like I think." Just accept you've got a minority opinion like, it's fine, it doesn't make your thoughts any less valid. :pac:

brianregan09 · 20-05-2019 12:30pm

Moral of the story do the right thing and end up out in the cold

Give me fire, blood and a hot blonde queen wife anyday

osarusan · 20-05-2019 12:34pm

It had to wrap things up, and given the mess it hat put itself in, it didn't do too badly I thought.

Danaerys was going to die, it was just a question of who would do it. Drogon had to disappear, it was just a question of how that would happen.

The endings for most characters were ok with me, not always what I expected, but I can live with it.

Some superb scenes as usual. I thought Tyrion finding Jaime and Cersei was beautifully done, and I loved the way a pile of snow/ash turned out to be a resting but watchful Drogon.

Still lots of stuff I wasn't thrilled about. Much too similar to Lord of the Rings in how all the characters we knew were still there at the end. That dialogue in that small council meeting at the end was gruesome television. Why the f**k are those people in those positions anyway.

Not quite sure about Brienne completing the section on Jaime either....two minutes that could have been better spent on slowing down another rushed story arc.

How would a dragon know to melt the throne itself? Why do it? It added nothing. Would have been more effective/symbolic if Bran had immediately ordered it to be melted.

Real problems with the Unsullied and Dothraki just leaving without a whimper, even though Grey Worm was rabid in his following of Danaerys all along.

Biggest issue for me was Bran being voted in as king after a 5 minute speech - it is just the kind of rushed shortcut people are complaining about. There could have been a whole episode on the machinations of that alone - disagreement, compromise, threats of independence. Instead it just happens, and the writers just hope we won't stop and think 'hold on a second, why would X do Y? Why wouldn't X do Z instead? '

But that's the story of the last couple of seasons for me. Because they didn't take the time to flesh out the reasons for things happening, they effectively happen for no reason. A show that used to be great even when you did stop to think about it...now it needs the viewer not to think too much and just accept things.

Anyway, it's over...maybe when I watch it back over again in a couple of years it'll sit better with me.

Blinky Plebum · 20-05-2019 12:36pm

Excellent final episode.

I thought the scene where they decide the new king was good as the derisive laughter from all the Lords when Samwell suggested that allow the people to decide who their King should be was excellent as everyone (even the supposedly good northerners) thought the people were not deserving of that and in the end summed up nicely the lack of respect all the Lords have for the people they are supposed to be leading.

everlast75 · 20-05-2019 12:39pm

I was actually surprised when Jon stuck the knife in. I think its a credit to how Emilia Clarke played the character, that even after the speech to the unsullied when she came across as a hardass b*tch, when she spoke to Jon she was as sweet as could be and it was believable to me that Jon was as conflicted as he was, and he began to be swayed by her, until..

Clareman · 20-05-2019 12:40pm

Thinking of it again, the ending is the only logical ending, it might have been better to have Jon go the way of Ned but there wasn't anything else for the other characters to do. I'm surprised the Iron Islands didn't declare independence as well seeing as how easy it was for the North to get independence but so be it I guess.

WhiteMemento9 · 20-05-2019 12:45pm

leggo wrote: »

The people who voted could've easily just clicked "I was disappointed" or that they hated it. They were given four options and had the freedom to choose whichever they like, from Extremely Positive to Positive to Negative to Extremely Negative. The majority chose Positive. But, because it doesn't represent your opinion, you're ignoring that and claiming "Oh when they clicked that they REALLY meant 'it was bad' like I think." Just accept you've got a minority opinion like, it's fine, it doesn't make your thoughts any less valid. :pac:

I am more surprised that it hasn't been better received. I thought it was the kind of stuff that many would have eaten up by those who have enjoyed this season as a whole.

I'm not looking for validation from the crowd. It isn't contrary to be so but I like what I like. All I need to do is look at my local cinema week in week out to see in general that the masses like things that are a little different to my tastes.

leggo · 20-05-2019 12:48pm

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

I am more surprised that it hasn't been better received. I thought it was the kind of contrived, play to the masses stuff that many would have eaten up.

I'm not looking for validation from the crowd. It isn't contrary to be so but I like what I like. All I need to do is look at my local cinema week in week out to see in general that the masses like things that are a little different to my tastes.

Ugh. Read that back again. "My taste is better than everyone else's." :rolleyes:

Tough look dude. I think 'the masses' are going to be fine being different to you too tbh.

First Up · 20-05-2019 12:49pm

I didn't lose half a night's sleep to watch it last night and after reading the stuff here, I think I'll watch the MEP debate tonight instead.

Only some of the candidates are as ridiculous and implausible as the GOT ending.

awec · 20-05-2019 12:50pm

everlast75 wrote: »

I was actually surprised when Jon stuck the knife in. I think its a credit to how Emilia Clarke played the character, that even after the speech to the unsullied when she came across as a hardass b*tch, when she spoke to Jon she was as sweet as could be and it was believable to me that Jon was as conflicted as he was, and he began to be swayed by her, until..

Her death was very well done.

Hulk Hands · 20-05-2019 12:51pm

Yara, who only followed Danerys on the promise of being given independence, is now happy to be ruled under Bran. Another plot hole

brianregan09 · 20-05-2019 12:51pm

There was two ways for Jon to end the show die a hero or live a king and they **** the bed , well no they **** the kingdom , I loved this show all of it everything up to this week i've enjoyed and I don't get annoyed by TV shows at all but jesus that ending ..........

I mean **** me and these are the guys been tasked with a Star Wars Trilogy , I'm actually livid over it

there was so much wrong with it I could go on for ages but I just couldn't be arsed

leggo · 20-05-2019 12:53pm

awec wrote: »

Her death was very well done.

I really enjoyed Emilia Clarke's performance here. I thought she straddled the line between being faithful to her character's past and delusional madness perfectly. Whether that worked or not depended entirely on her and she carried the load admirably.

WhiteMemento9 · 20-05-2019 12:53pm

leggo wrote: »

Ugh. Read that back again. "My taste is better than everyone else's." :rolleyes:

Tough look dude. I think 'the masses' are going to be fine being different to you tbh.

First I should console myself with the idea that my opinion is still valid even though it isn't a majority held one. Now I am some sort of snob because I am OK with this idea. You're a strange poster. You make everything out like it is some sports team discussion with a winner and loser when having a conversation with them.

dsmythy · 20-05-2019 12:57pm

everlast75 wrote: »

I was actually surprised when Jon stuck the knife in. I think its a credit to how Emilia Clarke played the character, that even after the speech to the unsullied when she came across as a hardass b*tch, when she spoke to Jon she was as sweet as could be and it was believable to me that Jon was as conflicted as he was, and he began to be swayed by her, until..

Yeah when she said others who thought themselves to be good had no choice but to accept her "good" i gurned Cersei style. Sealed her fate.

leggo · 20-05-2019 1:01pm

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

First I should console myself with the idea that my opinion is still valid even though it isn't a majority held one. Now I am some sort of snob because I am OK with this idea. You're a strange poster. You make everything out like it is some sports team discussion with a winner and loser when having a conversation with them.

Yes, I'm literally quoting back your words and reflecting how they come across. You weren't happy that people voted for "It was fine" so you tried to undermine it, then when that was pointed out, you went with, "Oh I like being different anyway because my opinions are better." Alright calm down there Danaerys. We all get to choose what we think is right.

But let's not fight. I've had six weeks of those. You didn't like it and want to think that makes you superior. Okay, grand, that's fine. You do you.

Hannibal_Smith · 20-05-2019 1:01pm

If Drogon flew off with the body and the murder weapon, how did they know it was Jon Snow who killed her? Or that she was even dead? Could have been anyone's blood on the floor just after a massacre

namloc1980 · 20-05-2019 1:04pm

Was there actually any point ultimately to Jon Snow being a Targaryen?

Daith · 20-05-2019 1:06pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Was there actually any point ultimately to Jon Snow being a Targaryen?

When he found out he stopped seeing Dany as a love interest. When others found out, they realised they had an alternative to Dany as ruler. All of this fed her paranoia.

NuMarvel · 20-05-2019 1:16pm

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

If Drogon flew off with the body and the murder weapon, how did they know it was Jon Snow who killed her? Or that she was even dead? Could have been anyone's blood on the floor just after a massacre

The CSIs in King's Landing are the best in all the Seven Kingdoms.

expectationlost · 20-05-2019 1:19pm

martyos121 wrote: »

Given that Benioff and Weiss had that ending in their locker for years and it was the ending that was coming all along from the mind of GRRM, if they had gotten there in a more natural, earned way, I think most would’ve accepted it. But no, the writers rushed the absolute sh out of it

the writers or HBO? I don't get why they got to decide if they didn't want to work on it anymore they could have been replaced no? were the actors fed up too?

is_that_so · 20-05-2019 1:19pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Was there actually any point ultimately to Jon Snow being a Targaryen?

"Was there actually any point" could apply to a whole lot of how it ended! Like many other tidbits just dropped in, there was far too little time to see or explain.

WhiteMemento9 · 20-05-2019 1:22pm

leggo wrote: »

Yes, I'm literally quoting back your words and reflecting how they come across. You weren't happy that people voted for "It was fine" so you tried to undermine it, then when that was pointed out, you went with, "Oh I like being different anyway because my opinions are better." Alright calm down there Danaerys. We all get to choose what we think is right.

But let's not fight. I've had six weeks of those. You didn't like it and want to think that makes you superior. Okay, grand, that's fine. You do you.

Fight about what? I feel like you are in some boxing match with yourself. I am tired just reading you wrap yourself in circles of nonsense about my posts never mind argue back.

20-05-2019 1:27pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Was there actually any point ultimately to Jon Snow being a Targaryen?

It drove Dany mad.

The ending was so bad that there was almost no point to any of it really.

Bran had no interest in ruling at all, became the king.
Jon and Bran were heavily involved in the white walker story, but Arya killed the NK... probably her first time seeing a White Walker.
Jaime was bad, then good, then bad again, then dead.
Tyrion just made lots of mistakes over and over again.
Arya’s whole story was a bit meh overall.
1 dragon killed Cersei forces.
The Unsullied and Dothraki just sail away with nothing to really fight for anymore.
Wildlings just head back home.
Everyone just sorta accepts Bran as King and life goes on.

The fan theories were more clever and complex than the actual writing in the end.

Loafing Oaf · 20-05-2019 1:32pm

NuMarvel wrote: »

The CSIs in King's Landing are the best in all the Seven Kingdoms.

I was thinking more of a new spinoff board game: Arya Stark with the Valyrian steel dagger in the throne room.

pah · 20-05-2019 1:36pm

leggo wrote: »

What a weird thing to say. I've had misgivings about this season: Lyanna killing the giant, Jon just giving away Ghost etc. I just haven't followed along the mob mentality and gone to town on a show I like that the rest of the world is fine with. Don't believe me?

https://twitter.com/binge_mode/status/1130298223258509312

78% of people thought it was fine or worse

Not a successful finale then.

pah · 20-05-2019 1:42pm

alchemist33 wrote: »

It's more like 37% agree with most here. And "fine" is nothing to be proud of either.

The fact that the options to choose from were

Loved it
It was fine
Disappointed
Hated it

Says a lot in itself.

Normal options would be

Amazing
Great
Good
Ok
Poor

leggo · 20-05-2019 1:44pm

pah wrote: »

78% of people thought it was fine or worse

Not a successful finale then.

That isn’t a way people have read polls ever, but whatever gets you through your day quicker pah. :pac:

namloc1980 · 20-05-2019 1:48pm

At the end Westeros can't be anything other than on the brink of a civil war. 6 kingdoms bending the knee to Bran and an independent North?....no chance!

RickBlaine · 20-05-2019 1:49pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

They were all guarding the far side of the Winterfell.

Not according to the battle plan map

Richard Hillman · 20-05-2019 1:50pm

If I were to give the writers a bit of credit, they tied it up so that we're not asking a load of questions. Although that's more along the lines of I couldn't be arsed anymore.

IrishAlice · 20-05-2019 1:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It drove Dany mad.

The ending was so bad that there was almost no point to any of it really.

Bran had no interest in ruling at all, became the king.
Jon and Bran were heavily involved in the white walker story, but Arya killed the NK... probably her first time seeing a White Walker.
Jaime was bad, then good, then bad again, then dead.
Tyrion just made lots of mistakes over and over again.
Arya’s whole story was a bit meh overall.
1 dragon killed Cersei forces.
The Unsullied and Dothraki just sail away with nothing to really fight for anymore.
Wildlings just head back home.
Everyone just sorta accepts Bran as King and life goes on.

The fan theories were more clever and complex than the actual writing in the end.

I feel it's a bit more nuanced than the above.

Bran had no interest in ruling and didn't seek power, which may make for a just ruler.

Arya trained with the faceless men to become a deadly assassin, Beric was kept alive by the Lord of Light so he could save Arya and she could fulfill her destiny.

Jaime didn't become bad again, his love of Cersei and their bond proved too strong for him to deny.

Tyrion made lots of mistakes but as hand of the king has been given an opportunity to right the wrongs.

The unsullied are finally free men, the dothraki will return to their own way of life.

From a fan point of view I thought Jon was short changed the most but he did always say he never wanted to sit on throne and living beyond the wall with the wildlings is probably a good ending for him.

I actually though Jon and Sansa would end up together and rule the North together. Assuming cousins is acceptable in the North.

NuMarvel · 20-05-2019 1:57pm

pah wrote: »

The fact that the options to choose from were

Loved it
It was fine
Disappointed
Hated it

Says a lot in itself.

Normal options would be

Amazing
Great
Good
Ok
Poor

Twitter only allows four choices in a poll, so you're a bit limited from the get go.

Drumpot · 20-05-2019 2:02pm

I enjoyed that.

Was a shame that they decided to finish it off so quickly but luckily for me I was able to enjoy what we got.

Its so ironic that Tyrion finding Jamie was the bit that got me the most when you think about the start of the show when I wouldnt of bet I would care much for these guys.

Thought Jons ending was very apt, he belonged with the Wildlings and he actually got exactly what he wanted. (once he realised he Dany had to be killed).

The death scene was handled brilliantly, nothing I would change on that, really enjoyed that. Didnt know what the Dragon was gonna do and since Jon is of fire I presumed he would be grand.

RickBlaine · 20-05-2019 2:02pm

Within less than two hours of screentime, Dany went from being one of the show's heroes to being killed as a villain. That is an insanely short timeframe for GoT.

Imagine how better it would have been if Dany's downfall was given as much time to gradually develop over many seasons as Theon or Jaime's redemptions.

Like much of this season, Dany's death felt very rushed. She was a core character since the first episode and her death should have had more impact, but it didn't. I think she needed to face the consequences of her actions, like Littlefinger last season. Jon stabbing her was like if Arya had suddenly cut Littlefinger's throat without any of the preceding dialog. It was just too sudden for such an important character.

A vast majority of this season's problems is due to this (and last) season's reduced runtime. It is crazy to think that this was requested by D+D and not mandated by HBO. Usually it is the network that is pulling the purse strings and forcing creators to amend their story accordingly. The only explanation is that they simply lost interest in the story, perhaps getting distracted by the shiny new Star Wars trilogy being dangled in front of them. For a show where duty is one of the primary themes, it is pretty bloody reckless and selfish of them to abandon their responsibilities like this. Even if they had lost interest, they could still remain as showrunners but hire other writers to finish the show.

It is a shame the Game of Thrones reputation has been tarnished.

meeeeh · 20-05-2019 2:06pm

IrishAlice wrote: »

I actually though Jon and Sansa would end up together and rule the North together. Assuming cousins is acceptable in the North.

Ewww. They were brought up as siblings...

Anyway Jon never wanted to rule and he doesn't have to now. The ending some want to see for him would be something he'd hate.

Am I the only one who finds it amusing that something like one couple survived in the whole series (Sam and Gilly). I guess dating is hard.

Utopia Parkway · 20-05-2019 2:17pm

Honestly thought they wrapped it up about as well as they could have. Impossible to keep everyone happy as everyone has a different interpretation on who should live or die and who should sit on the iron throne. Many people won't have wanted Bran to be King or for Jon to be sent back to the Night's Watch. So when it happens it's understandable that some fans are going to be pissed. My only complaint is they really should have made it a full season of 10 episodes with a few longer ones mixed in. The shortened season did them no favours and led to a feeling of everything being rushed to a conclusion. The show is always better when it's given time to breathe.

All a bit sad at the end with all the Stark's going their separate ways possibly to never see each other again. Some of them at least. Which followed the last little bit of classic Thrones humour with Tyrion, Ser Davos, Bronn and Sam, bickering around the table about brothels.

pah · 20-05-2019 2:27pm

leggo wrote: »

That isn’t a way people have read polls ever, but whatever gets you through your day quicker pah. :pac:

78% of people thought it was fine - at best.

From a poll that you linked to.

Anyway, I find Chris Stuckmann and I have similar taste and as always a genuine and honest review. No years of fan baggage here either as he only started watching the series this year.