Yay!!!! Ireland wins appeal at Europe's General Court!!

Snickers Man · 15-07-2020 10:15am #1

We DON'T get to keep the $13bn from Apple we thought we were going to get!!

Huh! How the **** is that a win?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-wins-appeal-in-13bn-apple-tax-case-1.4305044

Hodors Appletart · 15-07-2020 10:18am

we were never going to keep it anyway, if Ireland/Apple had have lost the money would have had to go to other EU Countries too.

The level of ignorance around all of this is staggering.

the "make apple pay for it" brigade will need another cause now

blackwhite · 15-07-2020 10:20am

It's going to be appealed to the ECJ (and always was regardless of who won the initial case).

Eric Cartman · 15-07-2020 10:20am

we were either going to keep 2 billion of it (thats 1 months welfare bill) and have our entire FDI pool looking elsewhere or we could send it back and prove that we're the greatest little island to do business.

this helps us in many more magnitudes than making apple pay ever would have

Alan_P · 15-07-2020 10:21am

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

we were never going to keep it anyway, if Ireland/Apple had have lost the money would have had to go to other EU Countries too.

And Apple would always have appealed it themselves, regardless of what the Irish government did. So no, appealing it didn't cost us the money.

average_runner · 15-07-2020 10:21am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

we were either going to keep 2 billion of it (thats 1 months welfare bill) and have our entire FDI pool looking elsewhere or we could send it back and prove that we're the greatest little island to do business.

this helps us in many more magnitudes than making apple pay ever would have

Exactly, we gain more by winning the case as a country

Hodors Appletart · 15-07-2020 10:22am

and even then there is no scenario where the irish govt suddenly finds itself with an extra 13bn quid

if the appeal reverses this decision money will then need to flow to other countries

the magic appletree of money is one of those national myths that a certain type of person clings on to

MrMusician18 · 15-07-2020 10:23am

Absolutely no harm that the commission got put back in its place, their determination was motivated politically. I'm looking forward to reading a summary of the judgement.

wassie · 15-07-2020 10:24am

Snickers Man wrote: »

We DON'T get to keep the $13bn from Apple we thought we were going to get!!

Huh! How the **** is that a win?

Simple. Its a win for Irish sovereignty. Worth more than €13b....

Geuze · 15-07-2020 10:32am

Snickers Man wrote: »

We DON'T get to keep the $13bn from Apple we thought we were going to get!!

Huh! How the **** is that a win?

The activities that generated the massive profits did not occur in Ireland.

So the profits aren't Irish to tax.

Explained here:

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2020/07/09/the-state-aid-judgement-and-stateless-income/

murpho999 · 15-07-2020 10:36am

Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?

Shelga · 15-07-2020 10:37am

Geuze wrote: »

The activities that generated the massive profits did not occur in Ireland.

So the profits aren't Irish to tax.

Explained here:

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2020/07/09/the-state-aid-judgement-and-stateless-income/

This is what I don't understand though- from my reading of it, they are not attributable to any country? How can this be possible?

Fully admit that I do not understand how Apple uses Ireland, and still don't, after reading the RTE article- can someone explain it in the most simple of terms?

Eric Cartman · 15-07-2020 10:38am

murpho999 wrote: »

Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?

the only people who bang on about us taking it don't care about jobs as they usually haven't ever had one.

Hodors Appletart · 15-07-2020 10:38am

murpho999 wrote: »

Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?

because the thirteen billionty millionty euros would be able to pay for dolers hospitals new gardai repair leaky water pipes new iphones for workshy wasters

basically the magic appletree was going to make ireland great again

Dyr · 15-07-2020 10:40am

The ECJ has massively overreached its original purpose. Nation states are governed by Parliaments not a panel of Judges.

gailforecast · 15-07-2020 10:41am

Snickers Man wrote: »

We DON'T get to keep the $13bn from Apple we thought we were going to get!!

Huh! How the **** is that a win?

Probably because FDI now has restored confidence in Ireland again.

Also, it shows the EU that Ireland won’t be bullied over our tax policies. Essentially we’re no longer the new kids on the block, and should be respected as a small, yet validated member. This type of case would never have happened if Germany or France were in Ireland’s position.

CalamariFritti · 15-07-2020 10:43am

Amazing how many ordinary people celebrate corporate tax evasion as a good thing. Just goes to show what a good brainwashing can do.

Laois_Man · 15-07-2020 10:44am

Bambi wrote: »

The ECJ has massively overreached its original purpose. Nation states are governed by Parliaments not a panel of Judges.

Nation states are governed by their respective supreme courts ultimately.

Certainly not by the European Commission

astrofool · 15-07-2020 10:51am

gailforecast wrote: »

Also, it shows the EU that Ireland won’t be bullied over our tax policies. Essentially we’re no longer the new kids on the block, and should be respected as a small, yet validated member. This type of case would never have happened if Germany or France were in Ireland’s position.

Funny how there's no cases ongoing into France's funding of it's semi state entities, reducing their tax hit to less than Ireland, who also now run England's energy infrastructure (that will be fun to untangle post Brexit).

astrofool · 15-07-2020 10:51am

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Amazing how many ordinary people celebrate corporate tax evasion as a good thing. Just goes to show what a good brainwashing can do.

You missed the avoidance vs. evasion class in school didn't you?

Nermal · 15-07-2020 10:55am

Shelga wrote: »

This is what I don't understand though- from my reading of it, they are not attributable to any country? How can this be possible?

We've set up our laws to enable it, which is our right. Our CT rate grabs the headlines, but it's a bit of a smokescreen, the real goldmine is the avoidance schemes our legislation permits.

Of course, we are gaining from this at the expense of other nations. So what? That's their problem.

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Amazing how many ordinary people celebrate corporate tax evasion as a good thing.

For us as a nation, it is most certainly a good thing. We're in a fight, CalamariFritti, not of labour vs. capital but of Ireland vs. everyone else. Which side are you on?

murpho999 · 15-07-2020 10:55am

Bambi wrote: »

The ECJ has massively overreached its original purpose. Nation states are governed by Parliaments not a panel of Judges.

In fairness that's not how democracy works.

Judiciary is an important and valid independent body.

ECJ done nothng wrong here.

They've given a ruling and it was appealed.

Remember it was the European Commission who took the case not the ECJ.

gailforecast · 15-07-2020 10:57am

astrofool wrote: »

Funny how there's no cases ongoing into France's funding of it's semi state entities, reducing their tax hit to less than Ireland, who also now run England's energy infrastructure (that will be fun to untangle post Brexit).

Of course not. This was simply a matter of the EU trying to flex their muscles. France has long despised that Ireland attracts the biggest multinational companies in the world, hence the push to “harmonise corporate tax rates”.

murpho999 · 15-07-2020 10:58am

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Amazing how many ordinary people celebrate corporate tax evasion as a good thing. Just goes to show what a good brainwashing can do.

It's not tax evasion though.

Apple and Ireland have been found to have acted correctly.

You do realise that Apple and lots of other companies would not be here otherwise and that would mean the non existence of thousands of direct jobs as well as thousands more in ancillary services plus construction work, VAT, income tax etc.

This is a much better decision for Ireland.

Shelga · 15-07-2020 10:58am

Nermal wrote: »

We've set up our laws to enable it, which is our right. Our CT rate grabs the headlines, but it's a bit of a smokescreen, the real goldmine is the avoidance schemes our legislation permits.

Of course, we are gaining from this at the expense of other nations. So what? That's their problem.

Basically, Ireland wants to be seen as a tax haven who happily facilitate the repatriation of €110 billion in profits from one of the biggest companies on the planet, and help them to pay as little as possible on it.

Great. I feel like such a winner alright. #soproud

facehugger99 · 15-07-2020 11:03am

The goose survives.

No doubt the mouth-breathers will be gutted.

murpho999 · 15-07-2020 11:03am

Shelga wrote: »

Basically, Ireland wants to be seen as a tax haven who happily facilitate the repatriation of €110 billion in profits from one of the biggest companies on the planet, and help them to pay as little as possible on it.

Great. I feel like such a winner alright. #soproud

But they have just been found to have not been guilty of that.

gailforecast · 15-07-2020 11:05am

murpho999 wrote: »

But they have just been found to have not been guilty of that.

I’ve a feeling “wat about de Apple tax” will now replace “wat about de banks”.

El Tarangu · 15-07-2020 11:08am

gailforecast wrote: »

Of course not. This was simply a matter of the EU trying to flex their muscles. France has long despised that Ireland attracts the biggest multinational companies in the world, hence the push to “harmonise corporate tax rates”.

Ireland is a small, sparsely-populated island at the edge of Europe. I always find it difficult to swallow when France (pop. 67m, loads of indigenous industry) and Germany (pop. 83 million, huuuge indigenous automotive & other heavy industries) talk about harmonising the tax rate in order to create a level playing field among the member states.

It's a great day for the smaller nations of the EU.

Pherekydes · 15-07-2020 11:08am

Whatever happened to the idea that everyone should pay their fair share of taxes?

Edgware · 15-07-2020 11:09am

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

we were never going to keep it anyway, if Ireland/Apple had have lost the money would have had to go to other EU Countries too.

The level of ignorance around all of this is staggering.

the "make apple pay for it" brigade will need another cause now

But but but Paul Murphy free for everyone change change its not fair

gailforecast · 15-07-2020 11:10am

Pherekydes wrote: »

Whatever happened to the idea that everyone should pay their fair share of taxes?

The court has ruled that they did pay their fair share.

Edgware · 15-07-2020 11:10am

gailforecast wrote: »

I’ve a feeling “wat about de Apple tax” will now replace “wat about de banks”.

warra about de homeless Joe

christy c · 15-07-2020 11:11am

This is the money Pearse Doherty, Mary Lou and other clowns wanted to spend only a short time ago- was foolish at the time but imagine how foolish we would have looked now if we did that?

Shelga · 15-07-2020 11:11am

murpho999 wrote: »

But they have just been found to have not been guilty of that.

Something being technically legal doesn't make it morally right.

Again, I acknowledge that this is a very complicated case and I am no tax expert. I also recognise the benefits that the presence of Apple brings to Ireland.

I just question tax avoidance, which, although legal, is not right. My understanding is we helped Apple avoid paying $40bn in tax in the US.

Why do people cheer this, and who are the real winners here?

JJayoo · 15-07-2020 11:12am

I just hope we get to pay the legal bill

seamus · 15-07-2020 11:14am

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

The level of ignorance around all of this is staggering.

What's incredible is the amount of people very vocal about this, who think that Ireland lost the case.

gailforecast · 15-07-2020 11:15am

Shelga wrote: »

Why do people cheer this, and who are the real winners here?

We are. Do you remember what Ireland was like before FDI arrived? Rather than our best and brightest leaving for greener pastures, there are now opportunities for Ireland’s educated to excel.

If we accept that FDI is a good thing, then we’ve got to ask why they’re here? The weather? Nope, it’s the favourable tax rate and R&D tax exemptions.

Cordell · 15-07-2020 11:17am

Pherekydes wrote: »

Whatever happened to the idea that everyone should pay their fair share of taxes?

No such thing as fair tax. You pay a % based on your income, how is that fair?
There is no fairness in taxation, only sustainability.

Delighted with the result. Ireland and Apple were on the same side on this, it's mind boggling to see people thinking they were not.

Metroid diorteM · 15-07-2020 11:18am

This is good news. I didn't like the implication that we break laws to do business here.

murpho999 · 15-07-2020 11:19am

Shelga wrote: »

Something being technically legal doesn't make it morally right.

Again, I acknowledge that this is a very complicated case and I am no tax expert. I also recognise the benefits that the presence of Apple brings to Ireland.

I just question tax avoidance, which, although legal, is not right. My understanding is we helped Apple avoid paying $40bn in tax in the US.

Why do people cheer this, and who are the real winners here?

They have just ruled that Ireland did not give Apple special treatment.

It means that Ireland also retains its right to set its own corporate tax rates.

Those rates have led to companies investing in Ireland. Ireland is competing with other countries for this investment.

Can you imagine what our economy would be like without them?

silver2020 · 15-07-2020 11:20am

christy c wrote: »

This is the money Pearse Doherty, Mary Lou and other clowns wanted to spend only a short time ago- was foolish at the time but imagine how foolish we would have looked now if we did that?

Watch as they either keep very quiet or as they claim the ruling is wrong.

This is why SF should never ever be in government

Shelga · 15-07-2020 11:21am

gailforecast wrote: »

We are. Do you remember what Ireland was like before FDI arrived? Rather than our best and brightest leaving for greener pastures, there are now opportunities for Ireland’s educated to excel.

If we accept that FDI is a good thing, then we’ve got to ask why they’re here? The weather? Nope, it’s the favourable tax rate and R&D tax exemptions.

Massive companies will never be taxed fairly, because countries around the world will never have a unified tax code so they have nowhere to escape.

I accept that, so I suppose on those terms it is true we have to do our best to stand out and make Ireland an attractive place to do business. Obviously the benefits of FDI are inarguable.

But facilitating tax avoidance still doesn't make me jump up and down with glee.

enricoh · 15-07-2020 11:21am

christy c wrote: »

This is the money Pearse Doherty, Mary Lou and other clowns wanted to spend only a short time ago- was foolish at the time but imagine how foolish we would have looked now if we did that?

Meh, they'd just tax the rich to get it back - easy peasy!

ELM327 · 15-07-2020 11:23am

Thankfully this will put an end now to the lefty loons call to arms "what about dee appul moneh !!11!"

Cordell · 15-07-2020 11:23am

gailforecast wrote: »

if we accept that FDI is a good thing, then we’ve got to ask why they’re here? The weather? Nope, it’s the favourable tax rate and R&D tax exemptions.

It's that and also skilled english speaking workforce, also geographical position right in the middle, there's a few factors that attract FDI. There's other places with way more favorable tax rates that don't attract FDIs, so it's not just that.

StupidLikeAFox · 15-07-2020 11:23am

Shelga wrote: »

Something being technically legal doesn't make it morally right.

Again, I acknowledge that this is a very complicated case and I am no tax expert. I also recognise the benefits that the presence of Apple brings to Ireland.

I just question tax avoidance, which, although legal, is not right. My understanding is we helped Apple avoid paying $40bn in tax in the US.

Why do people cheer this, and who are the real winners here?

Our tax regime is structured to attract multinationals - who employ a lot of people here. There are thousands of jobs in Ireland as a direct result of these incentives.

You may have a point around the morals of how/where these companies are taxed but you also have to acknowledge that if we somehow wanted to punish the apes of this world by changing our tax regime then we are putting a lot of jobs at risk.

It would be no comfort to me that the US got 40bn extra in taxes if the result is a higher unemployment

hmmm · 15-07-2020 11:23am

Thank **** for that.

markodaly · 15-07-2020 11:28am

murpho999 wrote: »

Good ruling for Ireland and actually protects Irish economy and jobs. How come so many people don't see this?

Because they are idiots and economic illiterates in the same vein as Trump and his 'Build a wall' followers.

seamus · 15-07-2020 11:28am

Shelga wrote: »

I just question tax avoidance, which, although legal, is not right. My understanding is we helped Apple avoid paying $40bn in tax in the US.

Why do people cheer this, and who are the real winners here?

Opposing tax avoidance, and being glad that Ireland won this case, are not at odds with one another.

We need laws to reflect what we want as a society. To defend society and the individual against what we consider to be immoral damage.

"Moral right" is an etheral concept. We cannot manage society on the basis of ethereal concepts, otherwise it just becomes a free-for-all of made up crap. It would mean that no matter how good a life you lead, you could be thrown in prison because someone took a dislike to you.

Instead we must transcribe these ethereal concepts as best we can, into laws. Into defined rules that allow people to know what they can and can't do, which in turn means that you cannot be found guilty of wrongdoing without having actually broken a rule.

This also requires that the law is robustly defended. That if someone has been charged with something, that it has been appropriately examined to ensure that the law is being properly applied.

That doesn't mean that one has to agree with the law itself. But if we start ignoring the laws we don't like, then we may as well abandon the rule of law. If we don't like laws, we should change them.

So we should absolutely change our laws to tighten up issues around tax avoidance and tax loopholes. But we can't just ignore our own laws to claim Apple's €13bn because it suits us to. The legtimacy of the law should be tested and defended all the time, whether we like the law or not. And whether we like the offence, or not.

markodaly · 15-07-2020 11:30am

Bambi wrote: »

The ECJ has massively overreached its original purpose. Nation states are governed by Parliaments not a panel of Judges.

It depends on the nation-state. Ireland is ultimately governed by the Irish Constitution, not the Dail per say. Westminister is different. The EU is different again, especially if it relates to competition law, nation-states have recourse against judgements made by the EU Commission or Parliament. Checks and balances and all that.

Yay!!!! Ireland wins appeal at Europe's General Court!!

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