Yay!!!! Ireland wins appeal at Europe's General Court!!

christy c

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so reducing it, may not do much for us at all, theyre already here, and by the looks of things, they aint going anywhere

I dont know what good it will do if any. It's to attract other companies is what I think the poster's point was, there are still companies that do not have a base here.

Start introducing stupid policies proposed policies and ses how long "ain't going anywhere" lasts.

Pkiernan

It only would have paid the long term scrounger bill for a year anyway.

Still it gives the ultras a reason to be reelected by the layabouts.

Wanderer78

christy c wrote: »

I dont know what good it will do if any. It's to attract other companies is what I think the poster's point was, there are still companies that do not have a base here.

Start introducing stupid policies proposed policies and ses how long "ain't going anywhere" lasts.

but maintaining the status quo more than likely will maintain the status quo, we re all in desperate need of more tax revenue, and the majority of citizens are largely tapped out in this regard, something has to change

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

but maintaining the status quo more than likely will maintain the status quo, we re all in desperate need of more tax revenue, and the majority of citizens are largely tapped out in this regard, something has to change

So your answer is to hit US companies who will leave and then have mass unemployment? Not an idea most people would think is good

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So your answer is to hit US companies who will leave and then have mass unemployment? Not an idea most people would think is good

hit them where what? what are you talking about?

blanch152

Iscreamkone wrote: »

If 12.5% is good, why wouldn't 10% be better?
It would piss off some in the EU, but with Brexit ongoing the EU may not want to push us too much.

We are attracting sufficient inward investment with the 12.5% so why would be reduce it? If we were attracting too little, or too much, then we would have an argument for change.

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so reducing it, may not do much for us at all, theyre already here, and by the looks of things, they aint going anywhere

They can leave in the morning, every other country in Europe and the world would offer them huge rewards to move. Not sure how you don’t understand this?

Dell had manufacturing here which is the hardest to move and they done it, most of these companies have software development etc, they can pack up in morning and tell staff move to XYZ or see you

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

They can leave in the morning, every other country in Europe and the world would offer them huge rewards to move. Not sure how you don’t understand this?

Dell had manufacturing here which is the hardest to move and they done it, most of these companies have software development etc, they can pack up in morning and tell staff move to XYZ or see you

so by maintaining our current rate, theyre gonna leave, why arent we already panicking over this?

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so by maintaining our current rate, theyre gonna leave, why arent we already panicking over this?

Your talking about the desperate need for tax, mass unemployment is going to deliver more tax is it?

Or where you getting this tax from?

blanch152

Wanderer78 wrote: »

but maintaining the status quo more than likely will maintain the status quo, we re all in desperate need of more tax revenue, and the majority of citizens are largely tapped out in this regard, something has to change

The majority of citizens are not largely tapped out.

Our property tax - LPT - is among the lowest in Europe
The income taxation burden on those earning below the average wage is the lowest in Europe.
We don't have water charges or local service taxes.
Our carbon taxes are too low.

There are a lot of areas which are untapped. You do have a point with regard to:

Those on higher than average incomes are taxed on incomes to a greater extent than elsewhere.
Our excise duties are high, but this may be a good thing.
Our VAT rates are similar to most - however, the exempt categories are too many

blanch152

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so by maintaining our current rate, theyre gonna leave, why arent we already panicking over this?

Maintaining our current rate is providing us with close to full employment, which means the rate is appropriate.

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Your talking about the desperate need for tax, mass unemployment is going to deliver more tax is it?

Or where you getting this tax from?

jebus! maintain current rate, change the way we accept this revenue, partially in stocks and shares, continue to work with other eu countries and eu institutions to slowlt change the rates in the eu as a whole, ideally slowly increasing rates uniformly, possibly partially accepting these revenues as stocks and shares. sounds simple, but im sure its far from it

Wanderer78

blanch152 wrote: »

The majority of citizens are not largely tapped out.

Our property tax - LPT - is among the lowest in Europe
The income taxation burden on those earning below the average wage is the lowest in Europe.
We don't have water charges or local service taxes.
Our carbon taxes are too low.

There are a lot of areas which are untapped. You do have a point with regard to:

Those on higher than average incomes are taxed on incomes to a greater extent than elsewhere.
Our excise duties are high, but this may be a good thing.
Our VAT rates are similar to most - however, the exempt categories are too many

so you re gonna sell more votes by virtually promising more taxes?

christy c

Wanderer78 wrote: »

but maintaining the status quo more than likely will maintain the status quo, we re all in desperate need of more tax revenue, and the majority of citizens are largely tapped out in this regard, something has to change

What are you proposing?

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

jebus! maintain current rate, change the way we accept this revenue, partially in stocks and shares, continue to work with other eu countries and eu institutions to slowlt change the rates in the eu as a whole, ideally slowly increasing rates uniformly, possibly partially accepting these revenues as stocks and shares. sounds simple, but im sure its far from it

Every other country in Europe would screw us in the morning to take these MNC, how do you not get that?

We change the tax and they leave. Europe won’t give a cr*p if everyone is unemployed here as long as they have people employed

All your talking about doing is exactly what Europe wants, not for the good of Ireland but for the good of themselves

Shefwedfan

In terms of tax, The issue is our spending and not our income. We need to cut back. Our Social welfare, the mismanagement of HSE, our politician are highly paid, the bottomless pit that is rte etc etc

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Every other country in Europe would screw us in the morning to take these MNC, how do you not get that?

We change the tax and they leave. Europe won’t give a cr*p if everyone is unemployed here as long as they have people employed

All your talking about doing is exactly what Europe wants, not for the good of Ireland but for the good of themselves

so maintaining the current rate, is changing it?

apologies, thought ireland was a part of europe!

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In terms of tax, The issue is our spending and not our income. We need to cut back. Our Social welfare, the mismanagement of HSE, our politician are highly paid, the bottomless pit that is rte etc etc

we done this after the last recession, it hasnt worked out well, policies such as austerity are known to cause far more damage than solve

seamus

Wanderer78 wrote: »

but maintaining the status quo more than likely will maintain the status quo, we re all in desperate need of more tax revenue, and the majority of citizens are largely tapped out in this regard, something has to change

Citizens being "tapped out" is an overplayed card from the recession.

The fact is that citizens have been paying low effective tax rates in Ireland, for a country of our size and population. Effective tax take is typically around the 23% mark, which is about a third lower than the EU average. And much lower than a comparable country - Denmark.

Even if we doubled our corporate take rate, it would only bring in about €10bn extra. That's assuming companies stayed with us. Which they wouldn't.

Successive governments have been warned about our reliance on corporate tax as an income source.

The fact is that we need to simplify and increase our personal taxation rates in order to stabilise our finances and ensure we have the infrastructure to stay competitive.

Feisar

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The funny part is the voters go on about every other party, they have done XYZ. Yet she lies constantly to them about everything and they lap it up and spout about how great she is


This is basic stuff, even the most stupid person in Ireland should at this stage realize the 13 billion is not going to be handed out to us. Yet we have her on TV telling people that we should take the 13 billion now because of Covid.


Either she is an idiot or she thinks the voters are idiots

Their manifesto for government included €22.1bn in additional expenditure over the next five years with an increase in taxes of €1.4bn

So a budget deficit of €20.7bn over five years or €4.14bn per year?

She thinks her voters are idiots.

Wanderer78

seamus wrote: »

Citizens being "tapped out" is an overplayed card from the recession.

The fact is that citizens have been paying low effective tax rates in Ireland, for a country of our size and population. Effective tax take is typically around the 23% mark, which is about a third lower than the EU average. And much lower than a comparable country - Denmark.

Even if we doubled our corporate take rate, it would only bring in about €10bn extra. That's assuming companies stayed with us. Which they wouldn't.

Successive governments have been warned about our reliance on corporate tax as an income source.

The fact is that we need to simplify and increase our personal taxation rates in order to stabilise our finances and ensure we have the infrastructure to stay competitive.

how many politicians would be (re)elected with the promise of increased taxes?

i didnt mention increasing corporate rates immediate, and not alone, that would be a dreadful idea, particularly right now

James Brown

murpho999 wrote: »

How is it two fingers to the EU when an EU court/body has just found the charges were incorrect.

Can you not see that Ireland has been cleared of any wrong doing?

Yes. However 90% or Irish government 'wrongdoing' was legal.
We've a reputation as being a haven for corporate money.
Maybe we might charge them the going rate of the taxation on the average worker?
These are the areas where we should be raising taxes. Why are schools, colleges and public services cut before we even look at such things? When the next downturn bites the like of Apple's rates won't be even sniffed at.
The bigger economic picture is no use to someone needing state aid to pay rent.

liamog

Shefwedfan wrote: »

In terms of tax, The issue is our spending and not our income. We need to cut back. Our Social welfare, the mismanagement of HSE, our politician are highly paid, the bottomless pit that is rte etc etc

It's really not, the tax burden on individuals is low here compared to other EU OECD countries.

http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-ireland.pdf

YellowBucket

Given that other than during the financial crisis our books have been fairly balanced, I would suggest we aren’t over spending.

We’re comparing ourselves with Nordic and other similar countries quite a lot though and wondering why we don’t have the same level of public services. The answer is we aren’t willing to pay for them.

Lord Glentoran

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

we were never going to keep it anyway, if Ireland/Apple had have lost the money would have had to go to other EU Countries too.

The level of ignorance around all of this is staggering.

the "make apple pay for it" brigade will need another cause now

It will be “make everyone earning a grand a year more than me pay for it”. Which is why I will never vote for the free other people’s money brigade.

Wanderer78

YellowBucket wrote: »

Given that other than during the financial crisis our books have been fairly balanced, I would suggest we aren’t over spending.

We’re comparing ourselves with Nordic and other similar countries quite a lot though and wondering why we don’t have the same level of public services. The answer is we aren’t willing to pay for them.

we really need to become big boys and girls with all this book balancing nonsense , or maybe the more plutocratic elements in our societies arent will to pay for it, and would rather keep indulging in rent seeking behavior!

James Brown

YellowBucket wrote: »

Given that other than during the financial crisis our books have been fairly balanced, I would suggest we aren’t over spending.

We’re comparing ourselves with Nordic and other similar countries quite a lot though and wondering why we don’t have the same level of public services. The answer is we aren’t willing to pay for them.

We are far too use to receiving cronyism and poorly managed oversight for our tax monies. You would be mad to think giving FF/FG more money would improve services.
You are correct though and I believe people would be willing to pay more for better services, if we could trust that would be the result.

Shefwedfan

Bowie wrote: »

Yes. However 90% or Irish government 'wrongdoing' was legal.
We've a reputation as being a haven for corporate money.
Maybe we might charge them the going rate of the taxation on the average worker?
These are the areas where we should be raising taxes. Why are schools, colleges and public services cut before we even look at such things? When the next downturn bites the like of Apple's rates won't be even sniffed at.
The bigger economic picture is no use to someone needing state aid to pay rent.

Stay at school/college and get a job in a MNC. Sorted

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Stay at school/college and get a job in a MNC. Sorted

and potentially have a miserable existence, they can be highly toxic working environments

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we done this after the last recession, it hasnt worked out well, policies such as austerity are known to cause far more damage than solve

What austerity?


We still have millions owed to county councils because tenants dont pay. We have people breaking themselves working to pay off mortgage because the few don't. We have people that fire out kids like candy because its more money into their pockets


We resolved nothing since the last crash. The decent people in Ireland, the middle class took a massive hit and that was hit. Everyone else just went around spouting about the rick should pay more which was just everyone else but them.



We brought in a car tax systen which took a 700-1800 euro car suddenly down to 300 euro yet people complain.



The only decent thing we did invest in, IRish Water, is now been pulled apart and will end up a mess like everything else. Our water quality is going in one direction.



Now the great answers we have some political powers is take more money from the worker and hand more money to the unemployed??


Many many threads I have said the same
1. You want a christmas bonus, then get a job. The people on unemployment that can work should not receive
2. You want anything over 3 children, then pay from your own pocket
3. At source take rent. No more paying to people so they dont pay rent


Put those 3 in place. Then lets see what else we can hit

Shefwedfan

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and potentially have a miserable existence, they can be highly toxic working environments

How exactly?

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What austerity?


We still have millions owed to county councils because tenants dont pay. We have people breaking themselves working to pay off mortgage because the few don't. We have people that fire out kids like candy because its more money into their pockets


We resolved nothing since the last crash. The decent people in Ireland, the middle class took a massive hit and that was hit. Everyone else just went around spouting about the rick should pay more which was just everyone else but them.



We brought in a car tax systen which took a 700-1800 euro car suddenly down to 300 euro yet people complain.



The only decent thing we did invest in, IRish Water, is now been pulled apart and will end up a mess like everything else. Our water quality is going in one direction.



Now the great answers we have some political powers is take more money from the worker and hand more money to the unemployed??


Many many threads I have said the same
1. You want a christmas bonus, then get a job. The people on unemployment that can work should not receive
2. You want anything over 3 children, then pay from your own pocket
3. At source take rent. No more paying to people so they dont pay rent


Put those 3 in place. Then lets see what else we can hit

...and why are house prices so high, its hardly due to the ability of financial institutions to effectively creating the money in the first place, which in turns pushes up those house prices by increasing the availability of credit, otherwise known as money!

Wanderer78

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How exactly?

trust me, they seriously can be dreadful working environments, sole destroying

liamog

Currently my employer spends €1,000 a year per employee subsidising private health insurance. I'd much rather every employer paid an employer USC contribution and that private health insurance was not necessary.

christy c

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i didnt mention increasing corporate rates immediate, and not alone, that would be a dreadful idea, particularly right now

So what exactly are you proposing? Please spell it out as I'm not sure you plan to achieve what you want.

Wanderer78

christy c wrote: »

So what exactly are you proposing? Please spell it out as I'm not sure you plan to achieve what you want.

i did, its back the way, sorry im too busy right now

christy c

Wanderer78 wrote: »

i did, its back the way, sorry im too busy right now

I didn't see it. Take your time, reply when you have time.

stoneill

The other side of this is that Apple have gotten away with a 13 billion tax fraud.

James Brown

stoneill wrote: »

The other side of this is that Apple have gotten away with a 13 billion tax fraud.

The only fraud would be selling it like a victory for Ireland.

christy c

stoneill wrote: »

The other side of this is that Apple have gotten away with a 13 billion tax fraud.

No they haven't.

The Rooster

stoneill wrote: »

The other side of this is that Apple have gotten away with a 13 billion tax fraud.

That would be legitimate opinion to hold if you were completely ignorant of all the facts alright.

markodaly

liamog wrote: »

It's really not, the tax burden on individuals is low here compared to other EU OECD countries.

http://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-ireland.pdf

This is because the bottom 40% of workers pay little to no tax.
By all means we should tax them more... says no politician ever.

christy c

Bowie wrote: »

The only fraud would be selling it like a victory for Ireland.

It's fantastic for Ireland. It was alleged that Ireland had given illegal state aid, the ruling today debunks that.

murpho999

Bowie wrote: »

Yes. However 90% or Irish government 'wrongdoing' was legal.
We've a reputation as being a haven for corporate money.
Maybe we might charge them the going rate of the taxation on the average worker?
These are the areas where we should be raising taxes. Why are schools, colleges and public services cut before we even look at such things? When the next downturn bites the like of Apple's rates won't be even sniffed at.
The bigger economic picture is no use to someone needing state aid to pay rent.

So what if we have a reputation. every other country does it. We're all competing.

Do you realise that if we had unattractive corporarate tax rates then the companies wouldn't be here at all employing thouands of people. What state would the economy be in then?

They employ thousands, pay taxes here, pay lots of VAT too, gernerate lots of economic activity that wasn't there before and we should be happy to have them here.

Tax that you fear we're missing out on would be offset by far more losses if we were to tax them more.

murpho999

stoneill wrote: »

The other side of this is that Apple have gotten away with a 13 billion tax fraud.

Or that the allegations were false and incorrect and EC has failed to prove that in an EU court?

markodaly

liamog wrote: »

Currently my employer spends €1,000 a year per employee subsidising private health insurance. I'd much rather every employer paid an employer USC contribution and that private health insurance was not necessary.

Your employer is already pay a PRSI contribution.

And in an ideal world, you may be right, but the problem with the Irish public sector is generally they are woefully inefficient, rife with bureaucracy, slow at change and infested with outdated and cracked work practices that cost us an arm and a leg. Just look at the monster that is the HSE.

People like private health insurance because they generally get to skip over the bureaucratic mess of the public health service.

Shefwedfan

stoneill wrote: »

The other side of this is that Apple have gotten away with a 13 billion tax fraud.

No they havent, do you not think the legal people getting paid millions would be able to prove it if they had??

Shefwedfan

liamog wrote: »

Currently my employer spends €1,000 a year per employee subsidising private health insurance. I'd much rather every employer paid an employer USC contribution and that private health insurance was not necessary.

Normally this is a company policy which is implemented in other countries and they give to all staff. If a MNC of course, if irish then local decision

Wanderer78

markodaly wrote: »

Your employer is already pay a PRSI contribution.

And in an ideal world, you may be right, but the problem with the Irish public sector is generally they are woefully inefficient, rife with bureaucracy, slow at change and infested with outdated and cracked work practices that cost us an arm and a leg. Just look at the monster that is the HSE.

People like private health insurance because they generally get to skip over the bureaucratic mess of the public health service.

by any chance has the bureaucratic mess come from the introduction of the insurance sector into our health care sector, a known outcome of such activities, the insurance sector being a critical part of the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), known to be a fundamental part of global rent seekers?

christy c

Pearse and his cohorts in full soundbite mode:

https://www.thejournal.ie/apple-ruling-5150635-Jul2020/

He must be feeling more stupid than usual after his party saying we should have spent this money only a short time ago.