Yay!!!! Ireland wins appeal at Europe's General Court!!

smurgen

I'm not sure this is much of a win or loss for Ireland. On the one hand we asserted our sovereignty by defending the application of our tax,we also painted ourselves as stable to FDI. However this will be noted by the OECD and I'm sure will be highlighted in BEPS 2.0 who's update is due in October.

Shefwedfan

smurgen wrote: »

You were defending a drink driving animal abuser with business debts who subsequently got the sack in record time. Your opinion means nothing.

Maybe discuss the topic and not the poster for once

Shefwedfan

i_surge wrote: »

Quite the opposite.

Not really, no jobs mean everyone has to leave. Sounds very much like the bad days of Ireland

Geuze

Shelga wrote: »

This is what I don't understand though- from my reading of it, they are not attributable to any country? How can this be possible?

Fully admit that I do not understand how Apple uses Ireland, and still don't, after reading the RTE article- can someone explain it in the most simple of terms?

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2020/07/09/the-state-aid-judgement-and-stateless-income/

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2020/07/15/the-general-courts-ruling-on-asis-head-office/


What I think I know:

the two companies are Irish incorporated, i.e. born in Ireland
the two companies are managed in the USA

ASI have a branch in Cork
the chuck of ASI profits attributed to Cork branch were taxed as normal by Ireland
the rest of ASI profits (the majority) were not taxed by Ireland, as these profits were not generated here
the Revenue agreement was about how much of ASI profits should be attributed to Cork

The profits were always going to be eventually taxed by the USA.
But the USA allow deferral of CT until the profits are brought home by ASI to Apple in the USA


The Commission argued that all of ASI profits should be attributed to Cork

Geuze

Shelga wrote: »

Basically, Ireland wants to be seen as a tax haven who happily facilitate the repatriation of €110 billion in profits from one of the biggest companies on the planet, and help them to pay as little as possible on it.

Great. I feel like such a winner alright. #soproud

Read this:

https://twitter.com/seamuscoffey/status/1283375302618615811



FWIW, here's a summary of Apple Inc.'s income statements for the past ten years.

Total Revenue: $1,888bn
Cost of Goods Sold: $1,147bn
Other Expenses: $202bn
Profit Before Tax: $549bn
Tax Provision: $128bn
Net Profit: $420bn

Cash paid for tax: $96bn (16.8% of profit before tax).

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

we re all in desperate need of more tax revenue, and the majority of citizens are largely tapped out in this regard, something has to change

Loads of earners here are undertaxed, in my opinion, especially those over 65.

alias no.9

i_surge wrote: »

The only intelligent post here.

Amazing to see Turkeys applauding Christmas. At this stage, we need to start posturing ourselves as a highly developed country and gradually detach from FDI. We have the resources and the intellectual capacity to be an independent self sustained nation with an indigenous high tech economy but will never get there given the darth of vision and soul on display here from those busy sucking at the teat and honing their good slave routine while teeing us up for the next round of boom/bust.

For the most part, multinationals were a great place to ride out the last recession, our boom bust is mostly indigenous.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

As a tax haven.

Ireland is not a tax haven.

https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/What-makes-a-country-a-tax-haven.pdf

Abstract: This paper explores the issue of tax havens and tax competition. The recent intensified debate on tax havens is summarised, as is the important work of the OECD, the EU and the G-20 in this area and the ongoing research on the economic effects of tax havens. Ireland does not meet any of the OECD criteria for being a tax haven but because of its 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate and the open nature of the Irish economy, Ireland has on a few occasions been labelled a tax haven.

There are three primary reasons for this identified, each addressed in the paper:
a failure to distinguish between legitimate and abusive transfer pricing;
a misunderstanding of the role and regulation of IFSC;
and a dated but influential academic paper from 1994 that incorrectly included Ireland in a list of tax havens, based on a reason that has long since lost any validity.

i_surge

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Not really, no jobs mean everyone has to leave. Sounds very much like the bad days of Ireland

Whatever basis you are coming from seems very limiting. No jobs....?!

We should use Covid as a chance for a hard reset about many of these issues, notwithstanding the fact that the chance of the rug being pulled out from under us at some stage has escalated with rising protectionism.

Cut cronyism, become efficient and stable. Not celebrating a cowboy culture from the past of winks and envelopes and excess.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

It's nothing to be proud of IMO. We are assisting the like of Apple dodge tax elsewhere. Legally it seems. Great that we are benefiting I just hope the same people cheering see the irony if this style of book keeping begins to work against us. It's the epitome of 'I'm alright Jack'.

There is no "tax dodge".

All these profits were generated in California, and have/will be taxed by the USA.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

We are profiting off the misery of others. Taxes that should be being paid elsewhere are avoided by using Ireland. It's great for the economy seemingly, but nothing to be proud of. I'm repeating myself here. We don't agree. Happens.

This statement is false.

The USA allowed a deferral of the CT due on these profits, yes.

But they will eventually be taxed, when returned to the USA.

Geuze

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Fcuking hell lads, neoclassical economics is effectively a pack of lies, it's clearly obvious. We have helped create a highly complex network of rent seekers sometimes called the 'rentier class', the fire sectors (finance, insurance and real estate), which bring very little to the table, but extract a lot. If you're heavily indebted, a large proportion of your income is extracted by this class, and probably a lot more than other classes such as the welfare class, apple would be a part of this rentier class

I agree with your criticism of the FIRE sector.

But Apple operate in a competitive market.

They make a phone for 100, and manage to sell it for 800.

They are not a monopoly.

Samsung is among their several competitors.

Nobody forces anybody to buy Apple products.

They have made massive profits based on innovation (and maybe marketing).

I would direct my ire elsewhere, e.g. land-owners, property developers, etc.

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

I've yet to see a breakdown of where the 13bn would have been paid, if the case went the other way. Has anyone got a link to a table or source that shows how much would have been ours or France's if we'd lost the case?

The USA.

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2020/07/15/the-general-courts-ruling-on-asis-head-office/

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2020/07/09/the-state-aid-judgement-and-stateless-income/

i_surge

alias no.9 wrote: »

For the most part, multinationals were a great place to ride out the last recession, our boom bust is mostly indigenous.

True and as I see it teeing us up with the skills to do a lot better rather than go in circles. All wishful thinking but if we used some of that cute hoor spirit to lean out of the corporate bureaucratic way of life we have been slowly adopting rather than sucking up to it we'd have the basis for doing big things on our own terms.

Geuze

This may help explain things:

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

There is no "tax dodge".

All these profits were generated in California, and have/will be taxed by the USA.

That's not correct.
Profits were generated in places like Canada and elsewhere also.

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

Ireland is not a tax haven.

https://igees.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/What-makes-a-country-a-tax-haven.pdf

Abstract: This paper explores the issue of tax havens and tax competition. The recent intensified debate on tax havens is summarised, as is the important work of the OECD, the EU and the G-20 in this area and the ongoing research on the economic effects of tax havens. Ireland does not meet any of the OECD criteria for being a tax haven but because of its 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate and the open nature of the Irish economy, Ireland has on a few occasions been labelled a tax haven.

There are three primary reasons for this identified, each addressed in the paper:
a failure to distinguish between legitimate and abusive transfer pricing;
a misunderstanding of the role and regulation of IFSC;
and a dated but influential academic paper from 1994 that incorrectly included Ireland in a list of tax havens, based on a reason that has long since lost any validity.

We help people and companies avoid paying tax.

Apple, the most valuable and most profitable company in the world, had been paying a corporate income tax of 5 percent or less thanks to a loophole in US and Ireland tax law, according to reports.

That is much less than the 12.5 percent Irish corporate tax rate and the 35 percent top US corporate tax rate.

The loophole, known as the “double Irish,” is perfectly legal.

...
In 2017, Apple earned $44.7 billion outside the US and paid just $1.65 billion in taxes, the BBC reported
https://nypost.com/2017/11/06/apple-avoids-ireland-tax-rate-by-moving-operation-to-island-of-jersey/

Ireland is a tax haven

The financial professionals and lawyers who have developed the corporate tax avoidance industry like to avoid terms such as “tax haven.” Instead, they prefer language about regulated entities that spread risk with efficient tax planning, aimed at facilitating a non-bank based structured finance regime. However, the Senate, the E.U. parliament and a growing list of social science experts prefer more straightforward language. As the recent research of Gabriel Zucman and the CORPNET research team at the University of Amsterdam shows, Ireland is a “conduit tax haven,” acting as a tax-avoiding funnel between nation-states and enabling the transfer of capital without taxation.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/25/ireland-is-tax-haven-thats-becoming-controversial-home/

tax ha·ven

/ˈtaks ˌhāvən/

noun

a country or independent area where taxes are levied at a low rate.

Geuze

Bowie wrote: »

That's not correct.
Profits were generated in places like Canada and elsewhere also.

Does Apple software development occur in Canada?

The HQ is Cupertino.

markodaly

Wanderer78 wrote: »

by any chance has the bureaucratic mess come from the introduction of the insurance sector into our health care sector, a known outcome of such activities, the insurance sector being a critical part of the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), known to be a fundamental part of global rent seekers?

So, the reason the HSE is an uncontrollable mess of middle management, outdated work practices, inflexible unions and bureaucracy is.... because of private health insurance?

You will need to give me some proper citations for that I am afraid.

markodaly

piplip87 wrote: »

'We didn't fight the British for 500 years to have Ireland governed by the EU"--- Gerry Adams

Ms McDonald, who now describes her party as "Euro critical" rather than Eurosceptical, said the treaty was a "carte blanche for further erosion of democracy....... On the Lisbon Treaty (which the commission tried to use in this case)
With all the talk of a Brexit in the media it's only right that Ireland follows the same path of a referendum on EU membership. Ireland would be better off leaving the EU bloc in order to take back our natural resources and independence from a group of unelected representatives who do not hold Ireland's best interest at heart but rather the interests of big business and banks through the privatisation of our public services .We call for a referendum..... Paul Murphy


What we see here is politicians on the Irish left who have lambasted the EU for decades for violating Irish Sovereignty all backing an attack on Ireland to set it's own tax laws.

We have the traditional pro EU parties seeing it for what it is: a money grab by the EU and an attempt to get some of the jobs.

They heard 13 Billion and went to town with a campaign to try and gain votes and spread mis-i formation regarding this.

Not surprising since their supporters still don't understand vote management, PRSTV, or basic maths (24% a majority).

It's a fantastic judgement and it means we can continue to attract FDI which keep highly skilled workers from emigrating and less skilled workers in retail, restaurants and other industries that have been built around the Docklands and other areas where these companies employ thousands of people..

This, so this.

The biggest critics of this case are SF, who paint themselves as standing up for the Irish nation, yet would have fully jumped for joy if the ruling went the other way.

Think about that for a few minutes. A self-proclaimed nationalist party siding with an external 'foreign' force that would have harmed the economic sovereignty of the nation.

James Brown

Geuze wrote: »

Does Apple software development occur in Canada?

The HQ is Cupertino.

No idea.

Apple has more than $215 billion in profits stashed offshore. Some of that money was made in Canada. The profits are in tax havens, mainly Ireland, which made a deal with Apple that resulted in tech giant paying an effective tax rate of less than 1 per cent a year for over a decade.
https://www.taxfairness.ca/en/news/canada-can-learn-eu’s-apple-tax-ruling

Mad_maxx

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Why is Bríd Smith still allowed air time?

Jesus she's unbearable.

She's an elected rep, she should of course warrant airtime but the hard left have always received vastly disproportionate media slots

Vincent Browne was more left than Brid Smith and had a show four night's per week for year's

BluePlanet

markodaly wrote: »

This, so this.

The biggest critics of this case are SF, who paint themselves as standing up for the Irish nation, yet would have fully jumped for joy if the ruling went the other way.

Think about that for a few minutes. A self-proclaimed nationalist party siding with an external 'foreign' force that would have harmed the economic sovereignty of the nation.

So it's Irish Law, that Apple's tax rate is 0.005% and you think that's just great?
WHO is harming our sovereignty and reputation?

uptherebels

Bowie wrote: »

No idea.

And yet the EU commission could provide no evidence of this "deal" in court!!!!!

ED E

Mad_maxx wrote: »

She's an elected rep, she should of course warrant airtime but the hard left have always received vastly disproportionate media slots

Vincent Browne was more left than Brid Smith and had a show four night's per week for year's

More left maybe, but also sane and rational not like that looper.

smurgen

Well the irony is the people who probably gave the idea that said aid was provided or preferential treatment was Apple themselves in 2013 in front of the Senate. After this testimony other multinationals such as Microsoft tidied up their testimony and avoided much of the scrutiny Apple drew upon themselves.

https://twitter.com/GeneKerrigan/status/1283362476629917696?s=19

Wanderer78

Geuze wrote:

They have made massive profits based on innovation (and maybe marketing).

Large corporations such as apple have in fact made a large proportion of their wealth, in some cases the majority, by financialising a proportion of their operations, hence why the majority of their manufacturing occurs in cheaper labour markets. They have also made use of a complex network of global tax havens, which includes ourselves, to avoid taxation globally, in order to maximise profits and ultimately share holder value. The increase in none productive activities such as share buy back schemes by many large corporations is another sign of the shift towards financialisation, ultimately to maximise share holder value, the only problem with that is, share ownership is heavily skewed globally. We ve managed to cod ourselves that such activities leads to a trickle down effect, again this is only partially true, but in many cases it's largely untrue, as it can and does lead to a trickle up effect, whereby we pick up the tab, particularly younger generations.

We cannot keep playing this game, Gini coefficients are on the rise globally, younger generations are gonna end up in serious trouble from these activities, we are destabilising some of our most critical of needs particularly economically, politically, socially and environmentally, ultimately it's the younger generations that will have to deal with the consequences of these actions, long after us older ones will be gone, if you have kids or grandkids or maybe even great grandkids, it's them that will pick up the ultimate tab from these activities. Change is needed urgently in these regards, and our political and economic institutions are defaulting to the norm, you're off springs future looks more uncertain.

markodaly wrote:

You will need to give me some proper citations for that I am afraid.

Joe Stiglitz has done some good work on this, showing that when private health insurance is intertwined with a public health care system, the outcome nearly always increases bureaucratic and administrative activities, and it's understandable why. Private health insurers ultimate goal is to maximise share holder value, but sometimes the best way to do that is to create resistance for citizens, particularly for public patience to get access to the system, in order to prioritise private customers. It could be argued that this is done intentionally, but I suspect it's not, it's simply just a byproduct of the beast. These outcomes could be classed as what Stiglitz calls 'inefficiencies of the market', but of course there are inefficiencies in the public sector also.

Deunionisation of the work place, particularly in the private sector has shown us leads to increased productivity but a decrease in wage inflation and overall increasing worker insecurities, the public sector knows this, hence their behaviour, always remembering, 'a force has an equal and opposite reaction'. I've only ever worked in the private sector, if you think the public sector is the only sector that has inefficiencies, think again, spend some time working in a factory, and you ll see some astonishing inefficiencies.

christy c

What a clown Gene Kerrigan is "against the interests of the Irish people".

Mortelaro

smurgen wrote: »

Well the irony is the people who probably gave the idea that said aid was provided or preferential treatment was Apple themselves in 2013 in front of the Senate. After this testimony other multinationals such as Microsoft tidied up their testimony and avoided much of the scrutiny Apple drew upon themselves.

https://twitter.com/GeneKerrigan/status/1283362476629917696?s=19

Doesn’t change the fact, the moneys not ours, never was and never will be

smurgen

Mortelaro wrote: »

Doesn’t change the fact, the moneys not ours, never was and never will be

Never said it was?chill out Tim Apple.

JohnnyFlash

christy c wrote: »

What a clown Gene Kerrigan is "against the interests of the Irish people".

Imagine being Gene Kerrigan’s age and still believing in Marxism-Leninism?

markodaly

BluePlanet wrote: »

So it's Irish Law, that Apple's tax rate is 0.005% and you think that's just great?
WHO is harming our sovereignty and reputation?

SF are unhappy that the state won an important legal challenge to our economic sovereignty.

christy c

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Imagine being Gene Kerrigan’s age and still believing in Marxism-Leninism?

I think most people are aware of how out of touch people like Gene Kerrigan, Mary Lou Mcdonald, RBB, etc. are, but you get moments like this every so often which just remove any doubt whatsoever.

markodaly

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Joe Stiglitz has done some good work on this, showing that when private health insurance is intertwined with a public health care system, the outcome nearly always increases bureaucratic and administrative activities, and it's understandable why.

Again, I am going to need some actual citations here, not 'some author told me so'

And when do you fetch them, bear in mind that countries like Holland, Germany, Australia, New Zeland, Canada, Switzerland just to name a few, have a mix of public and private insurance offerings.

What often happens in these arguments is that one looks at the complicated and expensive state of the US Health market and then make a glib determination that this is the only example worth considering, when there are numerous other successful examples available that offer very good outcomes for everyone.

Wanderer78

markodaly wrote: »

Again, I am going to need some actual citations here, not 'some author told me so'

And when do you fetch them, bear in mind that countries like Holland, Germany, Australia, New Zeland, Canada, Switzerland just to name a few, have a mix of public and private insurance offerings.

What often happens in these arguments is that one looks at the complicated and expensive state of the US Health market and then make a glib determination that this is the only example worth considering, when there are numerous other successful examples available that offer very good outcomes for everyone.

best i can do, im too busy to do your research for you, stiglitz has looked at other health care systems globally, finding the same or similar outcomes. health care systems are highly complex beasts, theres no clear perfect example globally, all systems have problems, with inefficiencies in both the public and private entities, a perfectly efficient system is probably not possible. you can see what many commemorators are currently saying about the issues with our health care systems, and modern thinking regarding efficiency etc, we have brought modern thinking of maximizing efficiency and productivity, and when this virus came along, most of us didnt have the capacity to deal with this some what unexpected visitor. its one of the main reasons why constructs such as the 'efficient market hypothesis' largely completely fails in these circumstances, we need to find ways of balancing both public and private sectors interests, not an easy task though.

https://www8.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/

https://twitter.com/JosephEStiglitz?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Geuze

BluePlanet wrote: »

So it's Irish Law, that Apple's tax rate is 0.005% and you think that's just great?
WHO is harming our sovereignty and reputation?

Let us be clear, there is no such CT rate.

The main CT rate in Ireland is 12.5%.

ASI paid 12.5% CT on the profits of its Irish branch.

stoneill

christy c wrote: »

No they haven't.

Yes they have, paying 1% tax since 2006?
It might have passed the tax laws in Ireland, but such a low rate of tax for so many years is fraud.

christy c

stoneill wrote: »

Yes they have, paying 1% tax since 2006?
It might have passed the tax laws in Ireland, but such a low rate of tax for so many years is fraud.

What's your definition of fraud?

smurgen

Well Ireland needs to be careful. The net is closing in. What's happened here is the U.S taxman has gained and so has Apple. The loser really is the U.S taxpayer as the lost out on historical CT rates due to the onshoring of the profits at the now lower rate.
Ireland needs to start growing it's own indigenous businesses quickly. As the likes of BEPs OECD etc go for tax harmonisation we will need to wean ourselves off corporate tax receipts. However we could offset this by fostering our own.

Wanderer78

smurgen wrote: »

Well Ireland needs to be careful. The net is closing in. What's happened here is the U.S taxman has gained and so has Apple. The loser really is the U.S taxpayer as the lost out on historical CT rates due to the onshoring of the profits at the now lower rate.
Ireland needs to start growing it's own indigenous businesses quickly. As the likes of BEPs OECD etc go for tax harmonisation we will need to wean ourselves off corporate tax receipts. However we could offset this by fostering our own.

or we could try gain access to more of the wealth created from the activities of such corporations active here

smurgen

Wanderer78 wrote: »

or we could try gain access to more of the wealth created from the activities of such corporations active here

That too but I thing we should also ring fence some of the current CT windfalls for Enterprise Ireland & IBEC.

Wanderer78

smurgen wrote:

That too but I thing we should also ring fence some of the current CT windfalls for Enterprise Ireland & IBEC.

Absolutely, and give Sme's the same level of protectionism as other sectors such as mnc's

markodaly

smurgen wrote: »

Well Ireland needs to be careful. The net is closing in. What's happened here is the U.S taxman has gained and so has Apple. The loser really is the U.S taxpayer as the lost out on historical CT rates due to the onshoring of the profits at the now lower rate.
Ireland needs to start growing it's own indigenous businesses quickly. As the likes of BEPs OECD etc go for tax harmonisation we will need to wean ourselves off corporate tax receipts. However we could offset this by fostering our own.

Well, we could just nationalise them, ala Dell or some other such pie in the sky proposals.

Companies, like Apple and Facebook are truly unique beasts in the world, they cannot be just replaced with an Irish equivalent.
Trying to support Irish indigenous business, Good.
Pretending we can just grow our own Apple and Facebook? Nonsenical.

markodaly

Wanderer78 wrote: »

a perfectly efficient system is probably not possible.

I would somewhat agree there, and that is why it has been shown a hybrid model of both public and private are often the best with the best outcomes.

smurgen

markodaly wrote: »

Well, we could just nationalise them, ala Dell or some other such pie in the sky proposals.

Companies, like Apple and Facebook are truly unique beasts in the world, they cannot be just replaced with an Irish equivalent.
Trying to support Irish indigenous business, Good.
Pretending we can just grow our own Apple and Facebook? Nonsenical.

What are you talking about at all? Are you inventing conversations with yourself? Irish talent cannot create i.t companies is it? You might want to tell that to John and Patrick Collison.
Your argument is so bad I don't know where to start really. One of the worst posts I've seen on boards in a very long time. It's like something the tin foil hat brigade would type.

walshb

smurgen wrote: »

What are you talking about at all? Are you inventing conversations with yourself? Irish talent cannot create i.t companies is it? You might want to tell that to John and Patrick Collison.
Your argument is so bad I don't know where to start really. One of the worst posts I've seen on boards in a very long time. It's like something the tin foil hat brigade would type.

You are not even reading what the poster posted...

Read again what the poster said....

markodaly

smurgen wrote: »

What are you talking about at all? Are you inventing conversations with yourself? Irish talent cannot create i.t companies is it? You might want to tell that to John and Patrick Collison.
Your argument is so bad I don't know where to start really. One of the worst posts I've seen on boards in a very long time. It's like something the tin foil hat brigade would type.

Again, read what I said, not what you think I said

smurgen

markodaly wrote: »

Again, read what I said, not what you think I said

Still don't get it. I never said anything about growing our own Facebook/Apple. I said we need to create conditions that will help Irish entrepreneurs create their own companies.

liamog

smurgen wrote: »

Still don't get it. I never said anything about growing our own Facebook/Apple. I said we need to create conditions that will help Irish entrepreneurs create their own companies.

Intercom and Stripe are two Irish Tech Unicorns (predominantly software-focussed startups valued at over $1 billion)

James Brown

uptherebels wrote: »

And yet the EU commission could provide no evidence of this "deal" in court!!!!!

The deal is there that wasn't the point of the case, it was whether it was a sweet deal or not.