Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

hotmail.com · 07-06-2020 9:24pm

FVP3 wrote: »

I didn't say anything about the Brit not knowing their history, however. I am saying the claim that the Irish dont know Parnell of O'Connell is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard on the internet. And I've been around the block.

Parnell and O'Connell aren't even taught in the Junior Cert.

suicide_circus · 07-06-2020 9:24pm

I mean Colston's statue is a good start but there's a lot more to be done.

All the period architecture from the British Empire's heyday will have to go, houses, museums etc. All the infrastructure such as the tube, sewers, roads, railways - all built on the back of colonialism and slavery.

There won't be a whole lot left by the end but damn we'll feel righteous.

SEPT 23 1989 · 07-06-2020 9:30pm

The city of Liverpool is going to blow their little minds

Penny Lane is in my ears and in my eyes

FVP3 · 07-06-2020 9:31pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

I mean Colston's statue is a good start but there's a lot more to be done.

All the period architecture from the British Empire's heyday will have to go, houses, museums etc. All the infrastructure such as the tube, sewers, roads, railways - all built on the back of colonialism and slavery.

There won't be a whole lot left by the end but damn we'll feel righteous.

You are jesting but, with the exception of public goods, I think a lot of that will happen, if present trends continue.

heres a list of private ( as far as I know) houses that are legacies of slave ownership.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/physical/

meeeeh · 07-06-2020 9:31pm

In communist countries statues were removed when Communism fell. Are some here saying that people toppling Stalin's statue didn't know why they are doing it.

People sre angry and maybe better question is why are they so angry tgey are doing it. And don't just assume tgey are morons who don't know history.

hotmail.com · 07-06-2020 9:32pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

I mean Colston's statue is a good start but there's a lot more to be done.

All the period architecture from the British Empire's heyday will have to go, houses, museums etc. All the infrastructure such as the tube, sewers, roads, railways - all built on the back of colonialism and slavery.

There won't be a whole lot left by the end but damn we'll feel righteous.

Exceptions can be made.

They let a bit of steam off.

This story is due to end anyway. A nice ending for the protesters.

JL555 · 07-06-2020 9:34pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

He sent the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries to Ireland in 1920 and we all know what they did.

Just to be clear I don't support tearing down or damaging statues but lets call out Churchill for what he was.

He did, but he also lead the British in WW2, the only European nation left to do so at a time when Hitler had blitzed his way through the whole continent, while we hid in the shadows.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-06-2020 9:35pm

Calhoun wrote: »

Its a vicious circle and helps drive allot of the bile. Look at what is done in America and how things have gone.

It wasn't the only factor but its helped contribute to the polarization over there.

Yeah but you can't live your life in constant fear of the right. If any opposition to them will make them stronger then we'd just give in to them at every turn. This statue business isn't a big deal. It's fine. Even if the right get cross about it and th general public say "fair enough" to taking down the statue, then it's grand.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-06-2020 9:36pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

When does it become acceptable for me to destroy something I find offensive?

Edgy. Oh no actual, boring.

hotmail.com · 07-06-2020 9:37pm

JL555 wrote: »

He did, but he also lead the British in WW2, the only European nation left to do so at a time when Hitler had blitzed his way through the whole continent, while we hid in the shadows.

Thankfully as well. Lots of us around now because of that decision to stay neutral.

suicide_circus · 07-06-2020 9:38pm

There are more people in slavery today than at any point in history; somewhere between 20 and 45 million souls, mostly women.

They won't be getting a march.

No one will be taking a knee for them.

Why? Because there is no political capital to be made.

Galwayguy35 · 07-06-2020 9:39pm

JL555 wrote: »

He did, but he also lead the British in WW2, the only European nation left to do so at a time when Hitler had blitzed his way through the whole continent, while we hid in the shadows.

I'm not really sure what we could have done but have to admit I always thought our neutral position was a cop out when the rest of Europe was at war.

Although the British were lucky the yanks joined the fight or they would have probably fell to the Germans as well.

ancapailldorcha · 07-06-2020 9:39pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

There are more people in slavery today than at any point in history; somewhere between 20 and 45 million souls, mostly women.

They won't be getting a march.

No one will be taking a knee for them.

Why? Because there is no political capital to be made.

The usual whataboutery.

Strazdas · 07-06-2020 9:41pm

suicide_circus wrote: »

I mean Colston's statue is a good start but there's a lot more to be done.

All the period architecture from the British Empire's heyday will have to go, houses, museums etc. All the infrastructure such as the tube, sewers, roads, railways - all built on the back of colonialism and slavery.

There won't be a whole lot left by the end but damn we'll feel righteous.

Where is the debate about their colonial past? Their media is full of articles about the Battle of Britain, the Blitz, D-Day, VE-Day etc, all of which shows Britain in a noble and heroic light.....the negative stuff in their long history gets largely edited out.

SharpshooterTom · 07-06-2020 9:41pm

JL555 wrote: »

Flavour of the month stuff I think myself. These people were probably out on climate change protests before the covid19 lockdowns happened, crying after their figurehead, a schoolchild from Sweden. It'll surely be something else in a few months time. I just wish they would pick one thing and stick to it.

Protesting is an important part of democracy, but they very often turn violent and can be very well planned to inflict mass destruction, primal instincts kick in and mob rules.

Problem is with a lot of young people is that they're very good at protesting but not so good at voting.

Millennials didn't turn out at elections for Brexit, Corbyn, Clinton in 2016, Bernie lost the 2020 primaries to Biden because his voters didn't show up.

Change isn't won through protests, facebook campaigns and hashtags but at the ballot box and young people don't show up. Their voting rates continue to be utterly terrible.

extra gravy · 07-06-2020 9:42pm

https://twitter.com/re_colston/status/1269694476861267979?s=19

His descendent is okay with it.

Strazdas · 07-06-2020 9:45pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I'm not really sure what we could have done but have to admit I always thought our neutral position was a cop out when the rest of Europe was at war.

Although the British were lucky the yanks joined the fight or they would have probably fell to the Germans as well.

In fairness, very few countries declared war on Nazi Germany. The likes of Denmark. Norway, Belgium and NL were all neutral and were invaded by them.

Even the US didn't declare war on the Nazis (it was the other way around).

hotmail.com · 07-06-2020 9:45pm

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Problem is with a lot of young people is that they're very good at protesting but not so good at voting.

Millennials didn't turn out at elections for Brexit, Corbyn, Clinton in 2016, Bernie lost the 2020 primaries to Biden because his voters didn't show up.

Change isn't won through protests, facebook campaigns and hashtags but at the ballot box and young people don't show up. Their voting rates continue to be utterly terrible.

They do vote, but they are just a portion of the vote. There are far more middle aged and older people.

Plus not all young people voter the same way.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-06-2020 9:46pm

FVP3 wrote: »

A lot of Bristol will have to change if they really want to disavow the slave trade. Not just the statues. It was the major centre. And once again I wonder about the private intergenerational slave wealth.

The excellent BBC "a house through time" tells the history of the house that was built by a slave owner on Guinea street, which is named after the slave trade ( from Guinea).

OK. So what? I haven't heard anyone calling for Bristol,to be sold and given to black people. I think renaming things named after slave traders or similar, is not a big problem. I get that you're trying to use the slippery slope argument to make it seem like an insurmountable issue, but it really isn't.

SharpshooterTom · 07-06-2020 9:49pm

hotmail.com wrote: »

They do vote, but they are just a portion of the vote. There are far more middle aged and older people.

Plus not all young people voter the same way.

Here's the voter turn out rates by age in the US every two years (including mid terms).

msN2MVVNehagGae7XUCJ5MgmsRahBhVG-zTK6F5xmZCwnIGqw0AKteQoBB4P4XTQ1ZuIOP1NH2kl-ARcgxUnxofzkuNeIZELaP6SzQgajmDoIM7E9i5HMOJwhQl9aSvKbYg_janIRa8kANgRWejuSZgOH9oVd1LZKEYNilIFReA

msN2MVVNehagGae7XUCJ5MgmsRahBhVG-zTK6F5xmZCwnIGqw0AKteQoBB4P4XTQ1ZuIOP1NH2kl-ARcgxUnxofzkuNeIZELaP6SzQgajmDoIM7E9i5HMOJwhQl9aSvKbYg_janIRa8kANgRWejuSZgOH9oVd1LZKEYNilIFReA

Slightly higher in the recent mid terms because of Trump but expect it to go back to normal once he's gone.

Clarence Boddiker · 07-06-2020 9:50pm

The progressive left are religious fanatics, extreme religious fanatics.
The religious instinct is within them and after the collapse of faith in the west it has re emerged as progressivism.

batman75 · 07-06-2020 9:51pm

Are their parallels between the statue coming down in Bristol and blowing up Nelson's Pillar in Dublin? In the sense that what both monuments represented. For us Irish Nelson was a reminder of a colonial past. Colston's statue a reminder of slavery.

My one worry with all these protests is that it is a cover for vandalism and thuggery.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-06-2020 9:51pm

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Problem is with a lot of young people is that they're very good at protesting but not so good at voting.

Millennials didn't turn out at elections for Brexit, Corbyn, Clinton in 2016, Bernie lost the 2020 primaries to Biden because his voters didn't show up.

Change isn't won through protests, facebook campaigns and hashtags but at the ballot box and young people don't show up. Their voting rates continue to be utterly terrible.

Protest is definitely a route to change. It's hard to know if you're joking or not.

Voting is another route to change and I wish more young people would vote. But people tend to vote more reliably as they age. I really don't think old people would be happier if young people voted reliably.

suicide_circus · 07-06-2020 9:52pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The usual whataboutery.

Protesting about slavery in modern Africa wouldn't look quite so good on twitter i suppose. Colston was born in 1636. His crimes, while obvious to us, were committed in a very different time, a different context. The abolitionist movement only started about 80 years after his death.

Annasopra · 07-06-2020 9:53pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I would have preferred it if they'd gone through the route of approaching the local council or whomever has jurisdiction over this but a man like this has no business being idolised like this in the 21st century.

I believe there had been a lot of appraoches to the Council for years

SharpshooterTom · 07-06-2020 9:53pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Protest is definitely a route to change. It's hard to know if you're joking or not.

It can ignite change sure, but if its not backed up at the ballot box the levels of systematic racism ultimately will not change very much.

Lefty Bicek · 07-06-2020 9:53pm

extra gravy wrote: »

https://twitter.com/re_colston/status/1269694476861267979?s=19

His descendent is okay with it.

Hardly has much choice.

The nutters would probably pull his house down next.

hotmail.com · 07-06-2020 9:54pm

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Here's the voter turn out rates by age in the US every two years (including mid terms).

Slightly higher in the recent mid terms because of Trump but expect it to go back to normal once he's gone.

The point I'm getting at is that the 18 to 30 vote block is much smaller than the 35 plus vote.

ancapailldorcha · 07-06-2020 9:55pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I believe there had been a lot of appraoches to the Council for years

BlitzKrieg and Duderino have expounded on this but yes, there have been.

goose2005 · 07-06-2020 9:56pm

Countless royal and English statues were removed after (partial) Irish independence in 1922. Mostly we took the more sensible step of selling the statues to British or Canadian cities that wanted that sort of thing.

https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/removing-statues/

A lot of people mentioning Nelson's Pillar; there was also a statue of Hugh Gough ("hero" of the Anglo-Sikh Wars) in the Phoenix Park that was repeatedly vandalised in the 40s and 50s before being sent to England.

images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcR0rZLlAA-wla5fV468qMO6YogBbG4gyjNKid86gNMj3LmEgAUz&usqp=CAU

images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcR0rZLlAA-wla5fV468qMO6YogBbG4gyjNKid86gNMj3LmEgAUz&usqp=CAU

The "Famine Queen" being removed from Leinster House (later transported to Australia for life)

Good King Billy on College Green, vandalised repeatedly and blown up in 1928

Calhoun · 07-06-2020 9:56pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah but you can't live your life in constant fear of the right. If any opposition to them will make them stronger then we'd just give in to them at every turn. This statue business isn't a big deal. It's fine. Even if the right get cross about it and th general public say "fair enough" to taking down the statue, then it's grand.

Who says you have to live in fear but if you want to eradicate racism then there is a nuance in which it needs to be handled.

It took very little to maneuver a majority in the UK to vote to leave the EU on the back of a xenophobic and jingoistic campaign.

We know from our own experience in Ireland that you meet in the middle and on ground of compromise. If your answer to any opposition is i am right and you are wrong then it will just keep growing.

nullzero · 07-06-2020 9:57pm

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I believe there had been a lot of appraoches to the Council for years

Removing a statue may not have been a top priority in their budget. Perhaps a more organised approach was required to change their minds.

Pulling down a statue doesn't really achieve anything, it doesn't improve any body's quality of life. It just seems like a stunt.

AllGunsBlazing · 07-06-2020 9:59pm

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Here's the voter turn out rates by age in the US every two years (including mid terms).

Slightly higher in the recent mid terms because of Trump but expect it to go back to normal once he's gone.

Ugh, that graph looks just like my migraine attacks

El_Duderino 09 · 07-06-2020 10:01pm

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

It can ignite change sure, but if its not backed up at the ballot box the levels of systematic racism ultimately will not change very much.

Yeah it definitely can ignite change. I don't think this stuff will be left up to young people. The Floyd movement/protests are big and I think they'll have a lasting legacy.

Sonics2k · 07-06-2020 10:04pm

nullzero wrote: »

Removing a statue may not have been a top priority in their budget. Perhaps a more organised approach was required to change their minds.

Pulling down a statue doesn't really achieve anything, it doesn't improve any body's quality of life. It just seems like a stunt.

I mean, they achieved their goal of getting the statue down?

goose2005 · 07-06-2020 10:06pm

pjproby wrote: »

We had our own slave traders you know

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/irish-slaveowners-compensation-1587899-Jul2014/

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2014/07/compensation-paid-to-irish-slave-owners-1833-sheet1.pdf

Seem to all be part of the merchant and planter elite. Not many Kellys or O'Briens.

SharpshooterTom · 07-06-2020 10:07pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah it definitely can ignite change. I don't think this stuff will be left up to young people. The Floyd movement/protests are big and I think they'll have a lasting legacy.

Possibly when millennials acquire power but not when boomers are in charge. I don't see it changing an awful lot even if Joe Biden wins given his mixed legacy on civil rights and African American incarceration.

I think what will help is the ongoing demographic change in western countries. Minorities increasing in numbers means the voices get louder and more and more of them get into prominent positions as they grow as a population etc.

Same here, minorities are only at 5% so far here but when they are at 15-20% they'll be better for it.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-06-2020 10:07pm

nullzero wrote: »

Removing a statue may not have been a top priority in their budget. Perhaps a more organised approach was required to change their minds.

Pulling down a statue doesn't really achieve anything, it doesn't improve any body's quality of life. It just seems like a stunt.

Ah get up the yard with your budget. Talking to my mate from Bristol and he says the opposition to exactly what you would think - thick fcukers who oppose any change like this for any reason they can think of (I imagine plenty of them looked into the budget excuse too).

Nope, it's just pepple who oppose change and mask their racism any way they can. People,who pretend that taking down a statue erases history (which has been said in this thread too). It's all nonsense of course and the statue is down now and it didn't cost the council much (just the cost of fishing it out of the harbour). So that's good eh?

nullzero · 07-06-2020 10:10pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah get up the yard with your budget. Talking to my mate from Bristol and he says the opposition to exactly what you would think - thick fcukers who oppose any change like this for any reason they can think of (I imagine plenty of them looked into the budget excuse too).

Nope, it's just pepple who oppose change and mask their racism any way they can. People,who pretend that taking down a statue erases history (which has been said in this thread too). It's all nonsense of course and the statue is down now and it didn't cost the council much (just the cost of fishing it out of the harbour). So that's good eh?

Yeah wonderful, pulling a statue down erased slavery from history.

ancapailldorcha · 07-06-2020 10:12pm

nullzero wrote: »

Removing a statue may not have been a top priority in their budget. Perhaps a more organised approach was required to change their minds.

Pulling down a statue doesn't really achieve anything, it doesn't improve any body's quality of life. It just seems like a stunt.

I'm sure there are some volunteers who would have happily done it for free and signed a waiver for insurance reasons.

nullzero · 07-06-2020 10:15pm

goose2005 wrote: »

Seem to all be part of the merchant and planter elite. Not many Kellys or O'Briens.

Precisely, these are people who had little time for the native Irish.

One quote that is often falsely attributed to several members of the Anglo Irish Upper class, most notably Lord Wellington "just because you are born in a stable does not make you a horse", is very much the attitude these type of people would have had to actual Irish people.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-06-2020 10:18pm

nullzero wrote: »

Yeah wonderful, pulling a statue down erased slavery from history.

Where did you get that idea? Lol

I think most people get what actually happened even if you pretend not to

nullzero · 07-06-2020 10:19pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Where did you get that idea? Lol

I think most people get what actually happened even if you pretend not to

I get what happened, I just don't see how it improves any body's life. It's tokenism and not much else.

Feisar · 07-06-2020 10:20pm

Why are we attempting to view the past with our current sensibilities?

FVP3 · 07-06-2020 10:24pm

goose2005 wrote: »

Seem to all be part of the merchant and planter elite. Not many Kellys or O'Briens.

Mostly Anglo Irish. A few elite Gaelic families from the West. Fun fact, the family that Mary Robinson ( nee Bourke) is from were slave owners. That said she isnt from that direct line.

FVP3 · 07-06-2020 10:26pm

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Same here, minorities are only at 5% so far here but when they are at 15-20% they'll be better for it.

Immigrants are a much higher percentage than that actually, but not all are citizens. A lot of our migration is temporary though, so hard to tell the future.

robinph · 07-06-2020 10:32pm

nullzero wrote: »

Removing a statue may not have been a top priority in their budget. Perhaps a more organised approach was required to change their minds.

Pulling down a statue doesn't really achieve anything, it doesn't improve any body's quality of life. It just seems like a stunt.

The area was most recently redesigned in 2017 with changes to the road layout, can't remember if the statue was moved as part of that but the area directly around it was all re paved certainly and I expect the plinth etc was dismantled and put back together again after a good scrub clean if nothing else.

FVP3 · 07-06-2020 10:32pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah get up the yard with your budget. Talking to my mate from Bristol and he says the opposition to exactly what you would think - thick fcukers who oppose any change like this for any reason they can think of (I imagine plenty of them looked into the budget excuse too).

Nope, it's just pepple who oppose change and mask their racism any way they can. People,who pretend that taking down a statue erases history (which has been said in this thread too). It's all nonsense of course and the statue is down now and it didn't cost the council much (just the cost of fishing it out of the harbour). So that's good eh?

I dont think you have any great insight into the British mindset.

The British left might well be woke, but in general the British don't hate the empire. More think it was beneficial than not:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2020/03/11/how-unique-are-british-attitudes-empire

The present ruckus is really just a reaction to the BLM movement in the US. In general the attitude the British have to slavery is that yes, they were involved in it but were amongst the first countries to ban it and to try and stop the Atlantic trade. Thats true enough of course.

El_Duderino 09 · 07-06-2020 10:38pm

nullzero wrote: »

I get what happened, I just don't see how it improves any body's life. It's tokenism and not much else.

If you get what happened, why did you waste time pretending that it eraced slavery from history?

Symbols are important. The idea that it's not OK to venerate people who were actively involved in the slave trade, is fine by me. The symbolism (tokenism as you call it) is important.

I think it's interesting that it's completely predictable which posters will look for any reason to see avoid seeing the obvious good thing that happened today.

Goldengirl · 07-06-2020 10:42pm

Plenty of statues bombed and pulled down in Ireland to remove any sign of British Imperialism ...Nelson's Pillar for one , and we are none the worse for it.

Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

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