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Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

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    #92
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,038 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    Though I'd argue him being pulled down is part of the history that makes it valuable historical piece

    I'd personally think it would be more valuable as a museum piece to keep the statue in it's vandlalised state in the museum to highlight the full breath of the history

    Otherwise it's just a statue someone made of him 100 years after he died to add to the collection of many other buildings and streets named after him.

    It being teared down is probably the most important historical aspect of the statue itself.

    There's a painting of him in storage in the music hall. They could dig that out and put it in the M2 and then put the vandalised statue beside it and show the two perspectives of the man.

    Yeah his history is still being created and now his history overlaps with the George Floyd and BLM protests happening in 2020. It's all relevant and it's all history.

    This guy shouldn't be forgotten, he just shouldn't have statues still standing in his honour in 2020.


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    #93
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Strazdas wrote: »
    The alt right have been virtually running the UK since June 2016 with their 'will of the people' mantra.....ditto with their pals in the right wing press.

    It's not a surprise that they're starting to come up against serious resistance and protests now (and not from the expected source....anti-Brexit people).

    They have always had some serious resistence i would have though, the opposition to brexit was quite high. This is just another instance of how both sides are not on the same page.
    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Nonsense. Statues aren't history. Loads of things happened and are recorded in history without having a statue erected in their image.

    Statues are not history. History doesn't need a statue to be remembered. They guy has a good Wikipedia page which gives actual information about him and his life and it's free for anyone to read. History is not being erased.

    I never said it made sense its what is going around at the moment and one of the tools they are using to turn people against what happened today. Its a nice soundbite and that is what resonates with them apparently.


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    #94
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,177 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    BlitzKrieg wrote: »
    I think the most confusing part of this whole affair is Piers Morgan actually being in favour of pulling down the statue.

    That's just weird

    Someone said this evening he has been consistently anti-racist over the years and hasn't just recently jumped on the bandwagon.


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    #95
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,688 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    They've been petitioning for decades. So I think "going through the council" has been covered.

    I didn't know that.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #96
    pjproby
    Registered Users Posts: 842 ✭✭✭pjproby


    We had our own slave traders you know

    https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/irish-slaveowners-compensation-1587899-Jul2014/

    http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2014/07/compensation-paid-to-irish-slave-owners-1833-sheet1.pdf


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    #97
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    The Bristol Mayor, Marvin Rees, has already said that the protest placards and banners from around the plinth of the statue will be put in the M Shed museum.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/mayor-marvin-rees-issues-statement-4202463.amp


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    #98
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,038 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I didn't know that.

    Yeah I've been chatting with a mate from Bristol today to get his insights. He says this guy isn't the only one in the same situation of giving great charity but also being involves in the slave trade. Bristol was a very important port so trade is how that city grew. And trade included things like spices, tobacco and slaves. So it's inevitable that the history will be mixed.

    I just don't see the problem with changing the statues as time passes.


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    #99
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,688 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah I've been chatting with a mate from Bristol today to get his insights. He says this guy isn't the only one in the same situation of giving great charity but also being involves in the slave trade. Bristol was a very important port so trade is how that city grew. And trade included things like spices, tobacco and slaves. So it's inevitable that the history will be mixed.

    I just don't see the problem with changing the statues as time passes.

    It's this culture war BS that's been imported from America. The people wailing about it probably didn't know it was even there to begin with.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #100
    thecretinhop
    Registered Users Posts: 6,510 ✭✭✭thecretinhop


    The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.


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    #101
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,038 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's this culture war BS that's been imported from America. The people wailing about it probably didn't know it was even there to begin with.

    Why's it BS?


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    #102
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,688 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    thecretinhop wrote: »
    The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.

    History is found in books and museums, not statues. Statues are for veneration.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #103
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,038 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    thecretinhop wrote: »
    The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.

    Who's history is being denied or having their understanding of their history obliterated?


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    #104
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,087 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It's this culture war BS that's been imported from America. The people wailing about it probably didn't know it was even there to begin with.

    You really don't have to dig very deep into the history of Bristol to find all sorts of questionable activities. But unusually I'd say that the population is relatively aware of this. Maybe not the finer details of each person's activities, but shadows of the slave trade are absolutely everywhere.

    You would really have to be walking around Bristol completely blind to where the city comes from and not be aware of its slave trading history.


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    #105
    JL555
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭JL555


    peasant wrote: »
    This fella thinks this could be the beginning of something that the British don't really do ...a revolution.

    Also, he mentions parallels to the Arab Spring movement from some years ago.



    Something that has surprised me, is that despite the coronavirus and the restrictions, this black lives matter movement is drawing thousands into the streets.

    25.000 in Munich yesterday ...a town not exactly famous for left-wing street protests, rather the opposite.
    15.000 in Berlin, 14.000 in Hamburg

    Thousands in more or less provincial backwaters in Germany like Flensburg, Göttingen, Bonn, Magdeburg.

    I don't know what happened in other European countries (I can't read French, Spanish, Italian or any other European language)


    But it seems to me that we could indeed see the beginning of some sort of people's movement here ..initially triggered by the events in the US, but it might be interesting to see where it goes this side of the pond.

    Flavour of the month stuff I think myself. These people were probably out on climate change protests before the covid19 lockdowns happened, crying after their figurehead, a schoolchild from Sweden. It'll surely be something else in a few months time. I just wish they would pick one thing and stick to it.

    Protesting is an important part of democracy, but they very often turn violent and can be very well planned to inflict mass destruction, primal instincts kick in and mob rules.
    One thing to note, in France about 14 or 15 years ago there were huge protests across several cities, started by the bad treatment of the folks living in the suburbs of Paris, mainly migrants, the destruction was a disgrace, cars, shops everything in their wake getting burned. Work colleagues of mine lost a lot of stuff and their lives were ruined, much of it didn't get covered in the international news, just the main cities like Paris or Lyon, but it happened pretty much all over. Surprised we haven't seen it already there.


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    #106
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,688 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Why's it BS?

    The culture war? What good do you see coming of it?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #107
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    Edgware wrote: »
    Let's tear down the John Mitchell statue in Newry. He was a slave owner in the U.S.

    Have to rename Mitchelstown then.


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    #108
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    robinph wrote: »
    You really don't have to dig very deep into the history of Bristol to find all sorts of questionable activities. But unusually I'd say that the population is relatively aware of this. Maybe not the finer details of each person's activities, but shadows of the slave trade are absolutely everywhere.

    You would really have to be walking around Bristol completely blind to where the city comes from and not be aware of its slave trading history.

    For most people in the know they would be aware of it, for a certain group of people they probably would be proud of the past. Its more than just racism its partial jingoism.

    As i said earlier if they are reflecting, they still have legacy of their colonial past ongoing today like the north ect.


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    #109
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,786 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The culture war? What good do you see coming of it?

    People might actually sit up and learn something.


    Assuming from your posts none of this impacts you or yours. Very evident.


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    #110
    JL555
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭JL555


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Yeah his history is still being created and now his history overlaps with the George Floyd and BLM protests happening in 2020. It's all relevant and it's all history.

    This guy shouldn't be forgotten, he just shouldn't have statues still standing in his honour in 2020.

    And yes, he should not be forgotten, but where does it all stop?
    Do we head off to Rome and pull down statues of Roman emperors? Slavery was an important part of the Roman Empire, much like the empires of the last few hundred years.
    Do we then head to Egypt and blow up the Pyramids?

    I know these are extreme examples.


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    #111
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,038 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The culture war? What good do you see coming of it?

    Well, I did ask you why you think it's BS so I'd like if you answer this question.

    But I'll answer your question. I see changes happening and in this specific instance the statue has been taken down and I think they'll rename the other things named after this guy. New statues will be put up and I'm fine with all this.

    Now, why do you think it's BS?


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    #112
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,786 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    listermint wrote: »
    People might actually sit up and learn something.


    Assuming from your posts none of this impacts you or yours. Very evident.

    Actually follow up this. You actually posted a few posts back

    "I didn't know that"


    Irony fulfilled...


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    #113
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,038 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    JL555 wrote: »
    And yes, he should not be forgotten, but where does it all stop?
    Do we head off to Rome and pull down statues of Roman emperors? Slavery was an important part of the Roman Empire, much like the empires of the last few hundred years.
    Do we then head to Egypt and blow up the Pyramids?

    I know these are extreme examples.

    You can do that if you want. I probably won't be doing it.


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    #114
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,786 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    JL555 wrote: »
    And yes, he should not be forgotten, but where does it all stop?
    Do we head off to Rome and pull down statues of Roman emperors? Slavery was an important part of the Roman Empire, much like the empires of the last few hundred years.
    Do we then head to Egypt and blow up the Pyramids?

    I know these are extreme examples.

    These statues were erected just over hundred years ago. And in the states many of them within living memory
    .they'd one purpose and it wasn't history.


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    #115
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,227 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The culture war? What good do you see coming of it?

    Well more British people probably learnt more about the dark parts of their empire by this simple act than they did in school.


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    #116
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/bbcrb/status/1269633662787694592

    Edward Colston got rich off transporting 84,000 African men, women and children to the Caribbean, 19,000 of whom died on route. His statue was taken down today in Bristol by protesters and later thrown in the river.

    https://twitter.com/bbcrb/status/1269644536281776128

    The British are facing the prospect of facing a overdue reckoning with their colonial past and how they celebrate it going forward, as are many other European ex colonial superpowers, France, Spain, Holland, Belgium etc. The minority population is rapidly growing in these countries, approaching 20% in the UK, and many British ethnic minorities find having statue's glorifying figures and relic's of the British empire deeply offensive.

    Bristol has a lot of history associated with the British colonialism, lots of buildings and streets named after people with connections to the slave trade, with a growing diverse population Bristol has a bit of reckoning to do going forward.

    Yesterday Churchill's statue was defaced, there are now calls for Nelson's statue to be taken down. I'm still surprised Cromwell's statue still stands in Cambridgeshire given he was a brutal mass murderer and tyrant.
    It is a worrying trend. Churchill for example is a hugly misunderstood figure and has been falsely blamed for causing famine and war crimes when in fact he spoke against it. He is similar to Christopher Columbus in that he gets blamed for the things he criticised.


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    #117
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Sawduck wrote: »
    Have any Churchill or Oliver Cromwell statues been demolished?

    Naw. Nor will there be any protests against the supremacist groups marching in the North in a few weeks. Doesn't fit in the narrative. Come November everybody will be wearing the poppy.

    Most of this is a sham. The living are more important than the dead and the UK anti-war movement is pretty much dead.


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    #118
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,038 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Well more British people probably learnt more about the dark parts of their empire by this simple act than they did in school.

    English people's knowledge of their history is shocking. They have such fascinating breadth and depth of history and cultures, it's a real shame.


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    #119
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,688 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Well, I did ask you why you think it's BS so I'd like if you answer this question.

    But I'll answer your question. I see changes happening and in this specific instance the statue has been taken down and I think they'll rename the other things named after this guy. New statues will be put up and I'm fine with all this.

    Now, why do you think it's BS?

    By "it", I mean the culture war and not the removal of the statue.

    I don't see anything good in grown men spewing poisonous nonsense on the internet. That's why the culture war is BS IMO.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #120
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Strazdas wrote: »
    Someone said this evening he has been consistently anti-racist over the years and hasn't just recently jumped on the bandwagon.

    Piers was, to his credit, one of the few mainstream editors opposed to the Iraq war. Not sure if he swayed any opinion though.


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    #121
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    When does it become acceptable for me to destroy something I find offensive?


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