Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

Calhoun

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah but you can't live your life in constant fear of the right. If any opposition to them will make them stronger then we'd just give in to them at every turn. This statue business isn't a big deal. It's fine. Even if the right get cross about it and th general public say "fair enough" to taking down the statue, then it's grand.

Who says you have to live in fear but if you want to eradicate racism then there is a nuance in which it needs to be handled.

It took very little to maneuver a majority in the UK to vote to leave the EU on the back of a xenophobic and jingoistic campaign.

We know from our own experience in Ireland that you meet in the middle and on ground of compromise. If your answer to any opposition is i am right and you are wrong then it will just keep growing.

nullzero

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I believe there had been a lot of appraoches to the Council for years

Removing a statue may not have been a top priority in their budget. Perhaps a more organised approach was required to change their minds.

Pulling down a statue doesn't really achieve anything, it doesn't improve any body's quality of life. It just seems like a stunt.

AllGunsBlazing

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Here's the voter turn out rates by age in the US every two years (including mid terms).



Slightly higher in the recent mid terms because of Trump but expect it to go back to normal once he's gone.

Ugh, that graph looks just like my migraine attacks

El_Duderino 09

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

It can ignite change sure, but if its not backed up at the ballot box the levels of systematic racism ultimately will not change very much.

Yeah it definitely can ignite change. I don't think this stuff will be left up to young people. The Floyd movement/protests are big and I think they'll have a lasting legacy.

Sonics2k

nullzero wrote: »

Removing a statue may not have been a top priority in their budget. Perhaps a more organised approach was required to change their minds.

Pulling down a statue doesn't really achieve anything, it doesn't improve any body's quality of life. It just seems like a stunt.

I mean, they achieved their goal of getting the statue down?

goose2005

pjproby wrote: »

We had our own slave traders you know

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/irish-slaveowners-compensation-1587899-Jul2014/

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2014/07/compensation-paid-to-irish-slave-owners-1833-sheet1.pdf

Seem to all be part of the merchant and planter elite. Not many Kellys or O'Briens.

SharpshooterTom

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yeah it definitely can ignite change. I don't think this stuff will be left up to young people. The Floyd movement/protests are big and I think they'll have a lasting legacy.

Possibly when millennials acquire power but not when boomers are in charge. I don't see it changing an awful lot even if Joe Biden wins given his mixed legacy on civil rights and African American incarceration.

I think what will help is the ongoing demographic change in western countries. Minorities increasing in numbers means the voices get louder and more and more of them get into prominent positions as they grow as a population etc.

Same here, minorities are only at 5% so far here but when they are at 15-20% they'll be better for it.

El_Duderino 09

nullzero wrote: »

Removing a statue may not have been a top priority in their budget. Perhaps a more organised approach was required to change their minds.

Pulling down a statue doesn't really achieve anything, it doesn't improve any body's quality of life. It just seems like a stunt.

Ah get up the yard with your budget. Talking to my mate from Bristol and he says the opposition to exactly what you would think - thick fcukers who oppose any change like this for any reason they can think of (I imagine plenty of them looked into the budget excuse too).

Nope, it's just pepple who oppose change and mask their racism any way they can. People,who pretend that taking down a statue erases history (which has been said in this thread too). It's all nonsense of course and the statue is down now and it didn't cost the council much (just the cost of fishing it out of the harbour). So that's good eh?

nullzero

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah get up the yard with your budget. Talking to my mate from Bristol and he says the opposition to exactly what you would think - thick fcukers who oppose any change like this for any reason they can think of (I imagine plenty of them looked into the budget excuse too).

Nope, it's just pepple who oppose change and mask their racism any way they can. People,who pretend that taking down a statue erases history (which has been said in this thread too). It's all nonsense of course and the statue is down now and it didn't cost the council much (just the cost of fishing it out of the harbour). So that's good eh?

Yeah wonderful, pulling a statue down erased slavery from history.

ancapailldorcha

nullzero wrote: »

Removing a statue may not have been a top priority in their budget. Perhaps a more organised approach was required to change their minds.

Pulling down a statue doesn't really achieve anything, it doesn't improve any body's quality of life. It just seems like a stunt.

I'm sure there are some volunteers who would have happily done it for free and signed a waiver for insurance reasons.

nullzero

goose2005 wrote: »

Seem to all be part of the merchant and planter elite. Not many Kellys or O'Briens.

Precisely, these are people who had little time for the native Irish.

One quote that is often falsely attributed to several members of the Anglo Irish Upper class, most notably Lord Wellington "just because you are born in a stable does not make you a horse", is very much the attitude these type of people would have had to actual Irish people.

El_Duderino 09

nullzero wrote: »

Yeah wonderful, pulling a statue down erased slavery from history.

Where did you get that idea? Lol

I think most people get what actually happened even if you pretend not to

nullzero

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Where did you get that idea? Lol

I think most people get what actually happened even if you pretend not to

I get what happened, I just don't see how it improves any body's life. It's tokenism and not much else.

Feisar

Why are we attempting to view the past with our current sensibilities?

FVP3

goose2005 wrote: »

Seem to all be part of the merchant and planter elite. Not many Kellys or O'Briens.

Mostly Anglo Irish. A few elite Gaelic families from the West. Fun fact, the family that Mary Robinson ( nee Bourke) is from were slave owners. That said she isnt from that direct line.

FVP3

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Same here, minorities are only at 5% so far here but when they are at 15-20% they'll be better for it.

Immigrants are a much higher percentage than that actually, but not all are citizens. A lot of our migration is temporary though, so hard to tell the future.

robinph

nullzero wrote: »

Removing a statue may not have been a top priority in their budget. Perhaps a more organised approach was required to change their minds.

Pulling down a statue doesn't really achieve anything, it doesn't improve any body's quality of life. It just seems like a stunt.

The area was most recently redesigned in 2017 with changes to the road layout, can't remember if the statue was moved as part of that but the area directly around it was all re paved certainly and I expect the plinth etc was dismantled and put back together again after a good scrub clean if nothing else.

FVP3

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah get up the yard with your budget. Talking to my mate from Bristol and he says the opposition to exactly what you would think - thick fcukers who oppose any change like this for any reason they can think of (I imagine plenty of them looked into the budget excuse too).

Nope, it's just pepple who oppose change and mask their racism any way they can. People,who pretend that taking down a statue erases history (which has been said in this thread too). It's all nonsense of course and the statue is down now and it didn't cost the council much (just the cost of fishing it out of the harbour). So that's good eh?

I dont think you have any great insight into the British mindset.

The British left might well be woke, but in general the British don't hate the empire. More think it was beneficial than not:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2020/03/11/how-unique-are-british-attitudes-empire

The present ruckus is really just a reaction to the BLM movement in the US. In general the attitude the British have to slavery is that yes, they were involved in it but were amongst the first countries to ban it and to try and stop the Atlantic trade. Thats true enough of course.

El_Duderino 09

nullzero wrote: »

I get what happened, I just don't see how it improves any body's life. It's tokenism and not much else.

If you get what happened, why did you waste time pretending that it eraced slavery from history?

Symbols are important. The idea that it's not OK to venerate people who were actively involved in the slave trade, is fine by me. The symbolism (tokenism as you call it) is important.

I think it's interesting that it's completely predictable which posters will look for any reason to see avoid seeing the obvious good thing that happened today.

Goldengirl

Plenty of statues bombed and pulled down in Ireland to remove any sign of British Imperialism ...Nelson's Pillar for one , and we are none the worse for it.

robinph

nullzero wrote: »

I get what happened, I just don't see how it improves any body's life. It's tokenism and not much else.

Mummy, why is there a statue of a man there? Why is that theatre named after him? Why is this street named after him? Why is my school named after him? Why is this cake named after him? Why are we celebrating as day after him?

El_Duderino 09

Feisar wrote: »

Why are we attempting to view the past with our current sensibilities?

Oh, just all the perfectly obvious reasons. Chiefly because we're alive now and have our current sensibilities.

It's just a statue, not the guy's existence that's being taken down.

Icepick

good riddance

this irritating certain people is a bonus

FVP3

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If you get what happened, why did you waste time pretending that it eraced slavery from history?

Symbols are important. The idea that it's not OK to venerate people who were actively involved in the slave trade, is fine by me. The symbolism (tokenism as you call it) is important.

I think it's interesting that it's completely predictable which posters will look for any reason to see avoid seeing the obvious good thing that happened today.

I am in favour of removing the statue, as I would be of any statue of any slaver, but legally.

It is however mere symbolism. When our northern supremacist friends riot in the North in a few weeks there will be no protests in blighty, although those supremacist parades are celebration of Empire and colonialism. When Britain continues to support the war against Yemen by arming the Saudis, there will be -- as with the US -- no real protest anywhere.

Attacking the past is easy.

Icepick

Yamanoto wrote: »

The mindset has absolute echoes of both ISIL & the Taliban - it offends our sensibilities, no discussion, we know best.

Wanna help me with my Oliver Cromwell statue in every Irish city project?

Calhoun

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think it's interesting that it's completely predictable which posters will look for any reason to see avoid seeing the obvious good thing that happened today.

That's just like saying its completely predictable which posters will look to stroke their own ego and smug self importance that they are right and others are wrong.

Everyone is at it and for the most part its the same posters who are just arguing, Its ridiculous on both sides in thread after thread the same old cyclical arguments..

What happened today shouldn't have happened because the council themselves should have gotten ahead of this when they got the chance many times before. They did not so the crowd took it into their own hands to do it which is a good thing.

However if they just started taking down statues that they did not like without going through proper channels it will build a stick to beat them with.

We as Irish want them to reflect in a good way because we do have a vested interest in them looking at their colonial past considering the question of the north.

El_Duderino 09

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Oh, just all the perfectly obvious reasons. Chiefly because we're alive now and have our current sensibilities.

It's just a statue, not the guy's existence that's being taken down.

Can we take down all mosques cos we don't agree with child marriage?

Churches because we don't believe in virgin births?

Where's your line?

robinph

robinph wrote: »

Mummy, why is there a statue of a man there? Why is that theatre named after him? Why is this street named after him? Why is my school named after him? Why is this cake named after him? Why are we celebrating as day after him?

Jesus?

Junkyard Tom

Clarence Boddiker wrote: »

The progressive left are religious fanatics, extreme religious fanatics. The religious instinct is within them and after the collapse of faith in the west it has re emerged as progressivism.

Don't be sacred, snowflake.

Icepick

Deleted User wrote: »

Can we take down all mosques cos we don't agree with child marriage?

Churches because we don't believe in virgin births?

Where's your line?

Do you believe slavers should be honoured in public space?