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Slave Trader Edward Colston's statue torn down in Bristol

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    #152
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    FVP3 wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about the Brit not knowing their history, however. I am saying the claim that the Irish dont know Parnell of O'Connell is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard on the internet. And I've been around the block.

    Parnell and O'Connell aren't even taught in the Junior Cert.


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    #153
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    I mean Colston's statue is a good start but there's a lot more to be done.

    All the period architecture from the British Empire's heyday will have to go, houses, museums etc. All the infrastructure such as the tube, sewers, roads, railways - all built on the back of colonialism and slavery.

    There won't be a whole lot left by the end but damn we'll feel righteous.


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    #154
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    The city of Liverpool is going to blow their little minds

    Penny Lane is in my ears and in my eyes


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    #155
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I mean Colston's statue is a good start but there's a lot more to be done.

    All the period architecture from the British Empire's heyday will have to go, houses, museums etc. All the infrastructure such as the tube, sewers, roads, railways - all built on the back of colonialism and slavery.

    There won't be a whole lot left by the end but damn we'll feel righteous.

    You are jesting but, with the exception of public goods, I think a lot of that will happen, if present trends continue.

    heres a list of private ( as far as I know) houses that are legacies of slave ownership.

    https://www.ucl.ac.uk/lbs/physical/


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    #156
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    In communist countries statues were removed when Communism fell. Are some here saying that people toppling Stalin's statue didn't know why they are doing it.

    People sre angry and maybe better question is why are they so angry tgey are doing it. And don't just assume tgey are morons who don't know history.


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    #157
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I mean Colston's statue is a good start but there's a lot more to be done.

    All the period architecture from the British Empire's heyday will have to go, houses, museums etc. All the infrastructure such as the tube, sewers, roads, railways - all built on the back of colonialism and slavery.

    There won't be a whole lot left by the end but damn we'll feel righteous.

    Exceptions can be made.

    They let a bit of steam off.

    This story is due to end anyway. A nice ending for the protesters.


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    #158
    JL555
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭JL555


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    He sent the Black and Tans and Auxiliaries to Ireland in 1920 and we all know what they did.

    Just to be clear I don't support tearing down or damaging statues but lets call out Churchill for what he was.

    He did, but he also lead the British in WW2, the only European nation left to do so at a time when Hitler had blitzed his way through the whole continent, while we hid in the shadows.


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    #159
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,043 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Calhoun wrote: »
    Its a vicious circle and helps drive allot of the bile. Look at what is done in America and how things have gone.

    It wasn't the only factor but its helped contribute to the polarization over there.

    Yeah but you can't live your life in constant fear of the right. If any opposition to them will make them stronger then we'd just give in to them at every turn. This statue business isn't a big deal. It's fine. Even if the right get cross about it and th general public say "fair enough" to taking down the statue, then it's grand.


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    #160
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,043 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    When does it become acceptable for me to destroy something I find offensive?

    Edgy. Oh no actual, boring.


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    #161
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    JL555 wrote: »
    He did, but he also lead the British in WW2, the only European nation left to do so at a time when Hitler had blitzed his way through the whole continent, while we hid in the shadows.

    Thankfully as well. Lots of us around now because of that decision to stay neutral.


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    #162
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    There are more people in slavery today than at any point in history; somewhere between 20 and 45 million souls, mostly women.

    They won't be getting a march.

    No one will be taking a knee for them.

    Why? Because there is no political capital to be made.


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    #163
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,381 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    JL555 wrote: »
    He did, but he also lead the British in WW2, the only European nation left to do so at a time when Hitler had blitzed his way through the whole continent, while we hid in the shadows.

    I'm not really sure what we could have done but have to admit I always thought our neutral position was a cop out when the rest of Europe was at war.

    Although the British were lucky the yanks joined the fight or they would have probably fell to the Germans as well.


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    #164
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    There are more people in slavery today than at any point in history; somewhere between 20 and 45 million souls, mostly women.

    They won't be getting a march.

    No one will be taking a knee for them.

    Why? Because there is no political capital to be made.

    The usual whataboutery.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #165
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,189 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I mean Colston's statue is a good start but there's a lot more to be done.

    All the period architecture from the British Empire's heyday will have to go, houses, museums etc. All the infrastructure such as the tube, sewers, roads, railways - all built on the back of colonialism and slavery.

    There won't be a whole lot left by the end but damn we'll feel righteous.

    Where is the debate about their colonial past? Their media is full of articles about the Battle of Britain, the Blitz, D-Day, VE-Day etc, all of which shows Britain in a noble and heroic light.....the negative stuff in their long history gets largely edited out.


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    #166
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    JL555 wrote: »
    Flavour of the month stuff I think myself. These people were probably out on climate change protests before the covid19 lockdowns happened, crying after their figurehead, a schoolchild from Sweden. It'll surely be something else in a few months time. I just wish they would pick one thing and stick to it.

    Protesting is an important part of democracy, but they very often turn violent and can be very well planned to inflict mass destruction, primal instincts kick in and mob rules.

    Problem is with a lot of young people is that they're very good at protesting but not so good at voting.

    Millennials didn't turn out at elections for Brexit, Corbyn, Clinton in 2016, Bernie lost the 2020 primaries to Biden because his voters didn't show up.

    Change isn't won through protests, facebook campaigns and hashtags but at the ballot box and young people don't show up. Their voting rates continue to be utterly terrible.


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    #167
    extra gravy
    Registered Users Posts: 22,624 ✭✭✭✭extra gravy




    His descendent is okay with it.


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    #168
    Strazdas
    Registered Users Posts: 18,189 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    I'm not really sure what we could have done but have to admit I always thought our neutral position was a cop out when the rest of Europe was at war.

    Although the British were lucky the yanks joined the fight or they would have probably fell to the Germans as well.

    In fairness, very few countries declared war on Nazi Germany. The likes of Denmark. Norway, Belgium and NL were all neutral and were invaded by them.

    Even the US didn't declare war on the Nazis (it was the other way around).


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    #169
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    Problem is with a lot of young people is that they're very good at protesting but not so good at voting.

    Millennials didn't turn out at elections for Brexit, Corbyn, Clinton in 2016, Bernie lost the 2020 primaries to Biden because his voters didn't show up.

    Change isn't won through protests, facebook campaigns and hashtags but at the ballot box and young people don't show up. Their voting rates continue to be utterly terrible.



    They do vote, but they are just a portion of the vote. There are far more middle aged and older people.

    Plus not all young people voter the same way.


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    #170
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,043 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    FVP3 wrote: »
    A lot of Bristol will have to change if they really want to disavow the slave trade. Not just the statues. It was the major centre. And once again I wonder about the private intergenerational slave wealth.

    The excellent BBC "a house through time" tells the history of the house that was built by a slave owner on Guinea street, which is named after the slave trade ( from Guinea).

    OK. So what? I haven't heard anyone calling for Bristol,to be sold and given to black people. I think renaming things named after slave traders or similar, is not a big problem. I get that you're trying to use the slippery slope argument to make it seem like an insurmountable issue, but it really isn't.


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    #171
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    They do vote, but they are just a portion of the vote. There are far more middle aged and older people.

    Plus not all young people voter the same way.

    Here's the voter turn out rates by age in the US every two years (including mid terms).

    msN2MVVNehagGae7XUCJ5MgmsRahBhVG-zTK6F5xmZCwnIGqw0AKteQoBB4P4XTQ1ZuIOP1NH2kl-ARcgxUnxofzkuNeIZELaP6SzQgajmDoIM7E9i5HMOJwhQl9aSvKbYg_janIRa8kANgRWejuSZgOH9oVd1LZKEYNilIFReA

    Slightly higher in the recent mid terms because of Trump but expect it to go back to normal once he's gone.


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    #172
    Clarence Boddiker
    Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Clarence Boddiker


    The progressive left are religious fanatics, extreme religious fanatics.
    The religious instinct is within them and after the collapse of faith in the west it has re emerged as progressivism.


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    #173
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users Posts: 20,043 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    Problem is with a lot of young people is that they're very good at protesting but not so good at voting.

    Millennials didn't turn out at elections for Brexit, Corbyn, Clinton in 2016, Bernie lost the 2020 primaries to Biden because his voters didn't show up.

    Change isn't won through protests, facebook campaigns and hashtags but at the ballot box and young people don't show up. Their voting rates continue to be utterly terrible.
    Protest is definitely a route to change. It's hard to know if you're joking or not.

    Voting is another route to change and I wish more young people would vote. But people tend to vote more reliably as they age. I really don't think old people would be happier if young people voted reliably.


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    #174
    batman75
    Registered Users Posts: 562 ✭✭✭batman75


    Are their parallels between the statue coming down in Bristol and blowing up Nelson's Pillar in Dublin? In the sense that what both monuments represented. For us Irish Nelson was a reminder of a colonial past. Colston's statue a reminder of slavery.

    My one worry with all these protests is that it is a cover for vandalism and thuggery.


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    #175
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    The usual whataboutery.
    Protesting about slavery in modern Africa wouldn't look quite so good on twitter i suppose. Colston was born in 1636. His crimes, while obvious to us, were committed in a very different time, a different context. The abolitionist movement only started about 80 years after his death.


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    #176
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,000 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I would have preferred it if they'd gone through the route of approaching the local council or whomever has jurisdiction over this but a man like this has no business being idolised like this in the 21st century.

    I believe there had been a lot of appraoches to the Council for years

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #177
    SharpshooterTom
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭SharpshooterTom


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    Protest is definitely a route to change. It's hard to know if you're joking or not.

    It can ignite change sure, but if its not backed up at the ballot box the levels of systematic racism ultimately will not change very much.


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    #178
    Lefty Bicek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Lefty Bicek


    extra gravy wrote: »


    His descendent is okay with it.

    Hardly has much choice.

    The nutters would probably pull his house down next.


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    #179
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,140 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    ThomasFlynn wrote: »
    Here's the voter turn out rates by age in the US every two years (including mid terms).

    msN2MVVNehagGae7XUCJ5MgmsRahBhVG-zTK6F5xmZCwnIGqw0AKteQoBB4P4XTQ1ZuIOP1NH2kl-ARcgxUnxofzkuNeIZELaP6SzQgajmDoIM7E9i5HMOJwhQl9aSvKbYg_janIRa8kANgRWejuSZgOH9oVd1LZKEYNilIFReA

    Slightly higher in the recent mid terms because of Trump but expect it to go back to normal once he's gone.

    The point I'm getting at is that the 18 to 30 vote block is much smaller than the 35 plus vote.


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    #180
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,734 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I believe there had been a lot of appraoches to the Council for years

    BlitzKrieg and Duderino have expounded on this but yes, there have been.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #181
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Countless royal and English statues were removed after (partial) Irish independence in 1922. Mostly we took the more sensible step of selling the statues to British or Canadian cities that wanted that sort of thing.

    https://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/removing-statues/

    A lot of people mentioning Nelson's Pillar; there was also a statue of Hugh Gough ("hero" of the Anglo-Sikh Wars) in the Phoenix Park that was repeatedly vandalised in the 40s and 50s before being sent to England.

    images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcR0rZLlAA-wla5fV468qMO6YogBbG4gyjNKid86gNMj3LmEgAUz&usqp=CAU

    The "Famine Queen" being removed from Leinster House (later transported to Australia for life)

    queen_victoria-2.jpg

    Good King Billy on College Green, vandalised repeatedly and blown up in 1928

    billy.jpg


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