Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

Lithium93_ · 13-07-2020 1:04pm

sky88 wrote: »

with low rating on all of the wrestling shows lately how low will they get when the NBA comes back an they go head to head with games could be even worse total viewers than before

Might as well add the NFL and MLB into that as well, when they return.

There's an All Star Nascar race next Wednesday night as well.

sky88 · 13-07-2020 1:26pm

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Might as well add the NFL and MLB into that as well, when they return.

There's an All Star Nascar race next Wednesday night as well.

didnt think NFL and MLB were close to returning NBA is end of July but yea none of this will help

Lithium93_ · 13-07-2020 1:32pm

sky88 wrote: »

didnt think NFL and MLB were close to returning NBA is end of July but yea none of this will help

MLB is back on the 24th if I recall correctly. NFL is due to start it's season the 2nd Thursday in September.

Both companies will seriously have to up their games.

Itssoeasy · 13-07-2020 6:33pm

Today marks the fifth anniversary of Stephanie McMahon single handedly started the women's revolution in WWE when Becky Lynch, charlotte flair, and Sasha banks debuted on Monday night raw.

Lithium93_ · 13-07-2020 6:57pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Today marks the fifth anniversary of Stephanie McMahon single handedly started the women's revolution in WWE when Becky Lynch, charlotte flair, and Sasha banks debuted on Monday night raw.

Let's call it what it really is, it was band wagon hopping 101 on the back of the US Women's team winning the Women's World Cup. Sure we got Becky, Sasha, Bayley and Charlotte from it all, and for that I'm thankful.

But the set up with Stephanie wasn't required at all. But hey she had to get her nauseating self congratulating for being such a "pioneer" in before hand.

Itssoeasy · 13-07-2020 7:25pm

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Let's call it what it really is, it was band wagon hopping 101 on the back of the US Women's team winning the Women's World Cup. Sure we got Becky, Sasha, Bayley and Charlotte from it all, and for that I'm thankful.

But the set up with Stephanie wasn't required at all. But hey she had to get her nauseating self congratulating for being such a "pioneer" in before hand.

Sorry I'd assumed that people reading it would have got the sarcasm from the start of my post. Of course it was band wagon jumping sure stevie wonder could see what it was. I know WWE is not against revisionist history when it suits them but this is the worst of it in recent times.

Lithium93_ · 13-07-2020 7:36pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Sorry I'd assumed that people reading it would have got the sarcasm from the start of my post. Of course it was band wagon jumping sure stevie wonder could see what it was. I know WWE is not against revisionist history when it suits them but this is the worst of it in recent times.

Sarcasm doesn't come across as sarcasm on the internet :pac:

Itssoeasy · 13-07-2020 10:48pm

Lithium93_ wrote: »

Sarcasm doesn't come across as sarcasm on the internet :pac:

No it doesn't and I did wonder should have included a sarcasm klaxon but given I mentioned Stephanie I assumed it was clear.

There's a new collection on the network which is a best of the women's evolution and the opening line in the description is " beginning with Stephanie McMahons trailblazing introduction..." is just so on the nose you're liable to get a bloody nose.

CastorTroy · 14-07-2020 12:25am

"trailblazing introduction"? I forgot she was the first ever woman to do an introduction

PTH2009 · 14-07-2020 1:52am

the NWO debut in WCW was genius and without Hogan it wouldn't of worked imo. I'd say it was cool to watch it each week back in the late 90s

B.A._Baracus · 14-07-2020 1:24pm

One of the greatest lines ever said in Pro Wrestling by Jim Cornette in regards to Bret not wanting to do the job in Montreal (YouShoot shoot interview): "When John Wayne left Metro Goldwyn Mayer he didn't put over the indians" lol.

True when you think about it :P That age old tradition in wrestling of doing the job on the way out but you don't see actors do it. Like what Cornette said, you didn't see John Wayne go "i'll put them en-jins over" - Nope, not gonna happen :pac:

The Nal · 14-07-2020 2:00pm

PTH2009 wrote: »

the NWO debut in WCW was genius and without Hogan it wouldn't of worked imo. I'd say it was cool to watch it each week back in the late 90s

It all happened fairly quickly. Outsiders angle last a couple of weeks, then Hogan joined and that last a couple of weeks and thenDibiase joined and the Giant etc and then it all went to shít.

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

One of the greatest lines ever said in Pro Wrestling by Jim Cornette in regards to Bret not wanting to do the job in Montreal (YouShoot shoot interview): "When John Wayne left Metro Goldwyn Mayer he didn't put over the indians" lol.

True when you think about it :P That age old tradition in wrestling of doing the job on the way out but you don't see actors do it. Like what Cornette said, you didn't see John Wayne go "i'll put them en-jins over" - Nope, not gonna happen :pac:

Im a huge Bret fan but he deserved what he got. Very much with Vince on this one.

sky88 · 14-07-2020 2:19pm

always thought bret got an easy ride from fans/critics for being an egomanic as HBK was more obnoxiously an egomanic

but i think its what drove them to being 2 of the goats as I think all of those who are great have it

gerrybbadd · 14-07-2020 2:57pm

Bret was 100% right in what he did.

After the fall out with Shawn, they shook on it, trying to patch things up. He told Shawn, while shaking his hand, that he was willing to put him over. Shawn thanked him, and while still shaking his hand, said he wasn't willing to do the same thing for Bret.

Vince should have stepped in here at this juncture. It would have solved a lot. Instead, he demanded the title be dropped to Shawn at SS. Bret offered to drop the title on Raw, he offered to forfeit the title, anything but drop it to Shawn, after the blatant disrespect displayed. None of it was good enough for Vince.

Fúck your "time honoured traditions", Vince owed Bret more than that, after his years of service. But he was so far up in Shawn's hole at the time, nothing would have made a difference. Bret had reasonable creative control as well, written into his contract, which was ignored also.

The Nal · 14-07-2020 3:16pm

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Bret was 100% right in what he did.

After the fall out with Shawn, they shook on it, trying to patch things up. He told Shawn, while shaking his hand, that he was willing to put him over. Shawn thanked him, and while still shaking his hand, said he wasn't willing to do the same thing for Bret.

Vince should have stepped in here at this juncture. It would have solved a lot. Instead, he demanded the title be dropped to Shawn at SS. Bret offered to drop the title on Raw, he offered to forfeit the title, anything but drop it to Shawn, after the blatant disrespect displayed. None of it was good enough for Vince.

Fúck your "time honoured traditions", Vince owed Bret more than that, after his years of service. But he was so far up in Shawn's hole at the time, nothing would have made a difference. Bret had reasonable creative control as well, written into his contract, which was ignored also.

Bret thinking its ok that the PPV ends up in a run in ending, cheating the buying public out of a finish, and then thinking it would be ok to vacate the title the next night before heading off to the competition as unbeaten heavyweight champ is madness and delusional.

The whole "Shawn wasn't willing" story wasn't the story told at the time. In the documentary its because Bret doesn't want to lose in Canada. At no point does Bret mention HBK and at no point does it come up in conversation with the hidden mics. And its not a story he told after leaving or even after leaving WCW. Its a story told years later by Bret to cover his selfish decision.

PTH2009 · 14-07-2020 4:39pm

Did the yellow and red Hogan do much in WCW before the he joined the NWO. From documentarys its seems he won the world title on his debut and everyone was sucking up to him

The Nal · 14-07-2020 5:06pm

PTH2009 wrote: »

Did the yellow and red Hogan do much in WCW before the he joined the NWO. From documentarys its seems he won the world title on his debut and everyone was sucking up to him

He had a good run with Flair and some really terrible stuff after. His crowd reactions were patchy. Booed at times.

Itssoeasy · 14-07-2020 5:14pm

On the Montreal post by Gerry I think Bret has become less sympathetic as time has gone on with regards to Montreal IMO. I know that HBK was a huge pain in the hole for the vast majority of people in WWE in the 1990's and no he probably shouldn't have said he'd never put Bret over but he did.

But then Bret decides to let it be known that he won't drop the title to HBK in Canada, which is problematic when the next PPV is in Canada and the plan is to drop the title. Now, I'm not saying vince has no fault here in that whole mess, because he does but as the years have gone on, I may not agree fully with his call but I can kind of see his predicament. I don't think he trusted Eric bischoff to not announce that Bret was coming to WCW when he'd have still been WWF champion even with all the previous legal problems between the two.

Of all times to dig youre heels in on something is when you are leaving was a misstep. So I think a more accurate statement instead of "Bret screwed Bret" would be "Bret didn't help bret."

It's been reported by those that were there that there was a lot of back and forth between vince,Bret, and Shawn prior to the match about who would go over and the consensus seems to be that Bret would not move on anything. Thats not a good way to do it.

J. Marston · 14-07-2020 5:32pm

This is wrestling's Saipan.

(Team Mick).

Riddle101 · 14-07-2020 6:21pm

^^^ Well it's easy to take Bret's side because he was so universally loved and people felt like Bret was f*ucked over by Vince in such a cruel and dishonest way. But there's definitely two sides to that story. I for one think Bret should have just dropped the belt and let it go.

I guess his issues with HBK didn't make it easier. I wonder if Bret would have dropped the title to Undertaker or someone else at the time, or if he just didn't want to drop the title completely. If it was a case of him not wanting to job to anyone then it really was down to Bret's ego, but HBK was piece of s*it back then and probably elevated the tension between Bret and Vince even more.

ShagNastii · 14-07-2020 7:05pm

J. Marston wrote: »

This is wrestling's Saipan.

(Team Mick).

It really is. It has been debated beyond death at this stage but I'll never tire of talk regarding "the screwjob". It is utterly fascinating when you think of it. Even more so if you every get the chance to discuss it with non-wrestling fans. I remember it being the main article on wikipedia one day.

The whole "breaking of kayfabe" blowing up smack bang in the middle of a major PPV involving two of the biggest stars ever. The drama, the shock and the fact Wrestling With Shadows documented it all.

I could look at that clip of Bret being put in the Sharpshooter and sh1t hitting the fan all day every day. Real scummy but that spit in Vince's face and the big W-C-W are almost poetic.

riffmongous · 14-07-2020 9:51pm

PTH2009 wrote: »

Did the yellow and red Hogan do much in WCW before the he joined the NWO. From documentarys its seems he won the world title on his debut and everyone was sucking up to him

The Dungeon of Doom and Baywatch! It looks pretty sucky but the OSW reviews of it are great fun

gerrybbadd · 15-07-2020 12:05pm

Riddle101 wrote: »

^^^ Well it's easy to take Bret's side because he was so universally loved and people felt like Bret was f*ucked over by Vince in such a cruel and dishonest way. But there's definitely two sides to that story. I for one think Bret should have just dropped the belt and let it go.

I guess his issues with HBK didn't make it easier. I wonder if Bret would have dropped the title to Undertaker or someone else at the time, or if he just didn't want to drop the title completely. If it was a case of him not wanting to job to anyone then it really was down to Bret's ego, but HBK was piece of s*it back then and probably elevated the tension between Bret and Vince even more.

Bret offered to drop the belt to several others, just not to Shawn. I think the whole refusal to drop in Canada gets mixed up in Bret's whole storyline at that time, being the hero in Canada, and villain in the US

Something else that gets overlooked here is the famous 20 year contract. It really seemed to me to be a push to get Bret out from all sides. He had earlier turned down a 3 year, $9m contract with WCW, opting for the WWE 20 year deal, so he could end his career there, and Vince had promised to make him the "Babe Ruth" of the company.

His 20 yr contract was for $1m a year. Had Vince held on, not been so rash, things would have ended a whole lot differently. And in my opinion, Owen would still be alive. There's no way that whole scenario would have went down if Bret was still with the company.

Vince reneged on the contract, citing financial difficulties etc. Yet he could pay Mike Tyson $3.5m just a few months later.

The Nal · 15-07-2020 12:12pm

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Vince reneged on the contract, citing financial difficulties etc. Yet he could pay Mike Tyson $3.5m just a few months later.

Partly because he didn't have to pay Bret. Thats the best 3.5m any wrestling company has ever spent. WWF took over WCW in the ratings immediately after.

Regarding Bret, Canadian hero or not, in Canada or not, its your last match with the company before you go to the competition. It doesn't matter what your reasons are, where you are, wrestling against someone you like or don't like - you drop the belt on the way out. The not dropping to Shawn thing, while maybe an element of truth to it, wasn't the reason and was only added to Brets story years later. Not losing in Canada was the main reason and he really didn't want to lose at all on the way out. Hence why he wanted to forfeit on Raw the next night as opposed to losing.

Blayze had dumped the WWF belt in the bin a couple of years before and even Ric Flair, the WCW/NWA loyalist, had brought the WCW belt over to WWF a few years before that.

gerrybbadd · 15-07-2020 12:45pm

The Nal wrote: »

Partly because he didn't have to pay Bret. Thats the best 3.5m any wrestling company has ever spent. WWF took over WCW in the ratings immediately after.

Regarding Bret, Canadian hero or not, in Canada or not, its your last match with the company before you go to the competition. It doesn't matter what your reasons are, where you are, wrestling against someone you like or don't like - you drop the belt on the way out. The not dropping to Shawn thing, while maybe an element of truth to it, wasn't the reason and was only added to Brets story years later. Not losing in Canada was the main reason and he really didn't want to lose at all on the way out. Hence why he wanted to forfeit on Raw the next night as opposed to losing.

Blayze had dumped the WWF belt in the bin a couple of years before and even Ric Flair, the WCW/NWA loyalist, had brought the WCW belt over to WWF a few years before that.

Raw the next night was in Canada also. Remember how poorly received it was when Shawn forfeited the title when he "lost his smile"? It wasn't about Canada. Bret would have done anything BUT drop the title to Shawn. He was all for forfeiting the title the next night, even in Canada.

And the Blayze thing is a convenient out for the McMahons. They successfully sued WCW over that whole thing, so there's no way WCW would have repeated history, and Vince knew that.

Bret's 20 yr deal was front loaded, meaning he would get the bulk of the payments up front, while still active in the ring, with lesser payments as the years rolled on. Nobody can tell me there was no wiggle room here for negotiation. "Hey Bret, instead of getting all this money up front the next couple of years, lets restructure payments so you get more at a later date" Bret was a company man. He didn't want to leave. He would have renegotiated if the need was there. There would still have been money there to bring in Tyson.

The problem during this era was, the Kilq were in Vince's ear. They wanted Bret gone, and they got what they wanted

The Nal · 15-07-2020 1:22pm

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Raw the next night was in Canada also. Remember how poorly received it was when Shawn forfeited the title when he "lost his smile"? It wasn't about Canada. Bret would have done anything BUT drop the title to Shawn. He was all for forfeiting the title the next night, even in Canada.

He was ok forfeting the title but he still gets to walk out as champ "with my head held high" as he said in Wrestling with Shadows. His head held high, undefeated WWF champ walking into Nitro a couple of weeks later.

Again, for a tell all documentary and some of the shoot interviews he did after, he never mentioned HBK! He just didn't want his character compromised. Could be wrong but I think the first time that came up was in his book 10 years later.

gerrybbadd wrote: »

And the Blayze thing is a convenient out for the McMahons. They successfully sued WCW over that whole thing, so there's no way WCW would have repeated history, and Vince knew that.

As above, they wouldn't have needed to dump a belt in the bin but just the idea of letting their champ walk out undefeated to their rivals is insane and madness that Bret thought it would be ok. He should've been told this months before of course.

gerrybbadd wrote: »

Bret's 20 yr deal was front loaded, meaning he would get the bulk of the payments up front, while still active in the ring, with lesser payments as the years rolled on. Nobody can tell me there was no wiggle room here for negotiation. "Hey Bret, instead of getting all this money up front the next couple of years, lets restructure payments so you get more at a later date" Bret was a company man. He didn't want to leave. He would have renegotiated if the need was there. There would still have been money there to bring in Tyson.

The problem during this era was, the Kilq were in Vince's ear. They wanted Bret gone, and they got what they wanted

Yeah I saw an interview with Shawn recently from 1999/2000 ish and he says Bret was a "what have you got for me" guy as opposed to doing what HBK, Austin etc did and knock on Vinces door, refuse angles, suggest angles and ideas etc.

The fact is the wrestling picture changed pretty quickly in 96/97 and Bret wasn't one of those guys. DX were hot, Austin was hot, NWO et al. There were bikini competitions, nudity and one of the wrestlers used to bring out a load of prostitutes to the ring.

Bret was 40 years of age and was against the Attitude era type angles so Vince didn't see that working I suppose.

Brets heel character in WCW was great and funny mind you.

Agent Coulson · 15-07-2020 1:24pm

Giving a convicted rapist who served his punishment €3.5m really did do a lot for Vince's bank balance.

The Nal · 15-07-2020 2:19pm

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Giving a convicted rapist who served his punishment €3.5m really did do a lot for Vince's bank balance.

He was also banned from boxing at the time for biting off Holyfields ear.

Genetic Jackhammer · 15-07-2020 6:10pm

I wonder how long it will take Vince to get Trump on a show PPV Network special after he finishes up turning the US into a wasteland and his presidential reign is over.

B.A._Baracus · 15-07-2020 7:41pm

Genetic Jackhammer wrote: »

I wonder how long it will take Vince to get Trump on a show PPV Network special after he finishes up turning the US into a wasteland and his presidential reign is over.

Don't count your chickens yet trump might always get in again

Random Wrestling Thoughts (Part 2)

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