rsa supporting e-scooters

beauf · 02-09-2019 4:29pm

I don't know why people ignore door to door time. They also leave out waiting for a train, bus etc. or changes.
When cycling people leave out how long to change, unlock the bike, get it out of a shed, cage etc. Have a shower etc.
For many cycling is regular exercise.

So lots of factors to consider.

magicbastarder · 03-09-2019 8:08pm

Ross telling retailers to inform e-scooter buyers of law is ‘nanny state gone mad’
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ross-telling-retailers-to-inform-e-scooter-buyers-of-law-is-nanny-state-gone-mad-1.4006371

while i have sympathy with the retail association's reaction, some retailers have been downright lying to customers about the legalities of them.

tomasrojo · 03-09-2019 8:35pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

Ross telling retailers to inform e-scooter buyers of law is ‘nanny state gone mad’
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ross-telling-retailers-to-inform-e-scooter-buyers-of-law-is-nanny-state-gone-mad-1.4006371

while i have sympathy with the retail association's reaction, some retailers have been downright lying to customers about the legalities of them.

And given they can cost quite a bit and the Gardaí can currently confiscate them, that's pretty serious lying.

beauf · 03-09-2019 8:52pm

People everywhere saying that for a couple of years.

Its a scandal the Govt have done nothing to legalize them.

is_that_so · 03-09-2019 8:54pm

dastardly00 wrote: »

What have they got to do with bicycles/cycling?

Everything has something to do with cycling!:D

is_that_so · 03-09-2019 9:07pm

Duckjob wrote: »

Of course you can. Its a matter of tipping the balance in favour of active transport. People need a bit of firm encouragement because frankly some of them need to be peeled out of their cars.

Your objection is like trying to put the cart before the horse. We can't implement a decent public transport or decent walking/cycling space etc while cars are given the lions share of space in our cities. With the reallocated from cars we can accomodate far better travel and public transport infra.

Electric cars will ease local air pollution somewhat, but they're no zero help to easing the congestion that's crippling our cities.

Active transport? What on earth is that? My objection is the lack of good public transport and there is neither horse nor cart in some cases. We are at the mercy of the decades of bad planning that has allowed the city to spread out so far and most people are not in some Goldilocks zone where they live and work within moderately short distances.

If you live anywhere on the north side of the city that is not within reach of a train line, you are quite likely to have poor transport options. Even with a train there are scheduling and capacity issues which can make it quite a challenge to travel to workplaces. I can't comment on the Southside but I'd imagine West Dublin is not a lot different and I know that parts of Blanch and Lucan barely have any.
That has to be addressed first, to provide people with enough real options, then you can look at ways of encouraging them.

magicbastarder · 03-09-2019 10:19pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Active transport? What on earth is that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_mobility

tomasrojo · 03-09-2019 10:24pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Everything has something to do with cycling!:D

This is my experience, but it's probably like Procrustes saying "Everyone eventually fits the bed".

is_that_so · 03-09-2019 10:57pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_mobility

I do hate dumb neologisms!

silverharp · 03-09-2019 11:12pm

rubadub wrote: »

Some might, but I cycle in torrential rain or snow. The beauty of them is no effort is required, so you can get away with cheapo non-breathable raingear, which is also very protective as it is not breathable. While on a regular bike you would sweat like a pig.

My commute is 20mins on a ebike, last time I drove was 40mins, luas takes an hour, 20min walk to the luas, 25min luas, 10min walk to work, and leave 5mins in case the luas is late. Bus would be over an hour including the walks.

Many people do not factor in the added delays with waits & walking on public transport, some like to fool themselves that it is not that bad. When every I hear somebody say their commute takes say 30mins, and they have to be in at 9am I would ask "oh so you shut he door behind you at 8.30?" and the reply is often "ah jaysus no!!! I leave the house at 7.45 and walk...etc "

i remember seeing some study on them an the distances commuted seemed reasonably short , under an hour walking or something like that. i'd say in a dublin context the majority of people using them would live in the post codes bordering on 1 and 2 or else people that use them to connect to Luas or Dart.

how do they work socially, if you were going into town shopping would you need somr kind of locker system? or do they lock to bike stands?

check_six · 04-09-2019 11:40am

is_that_so wrote: »

We are at the mercy of the decades of bad planning that has allowed the city to spread out so far and most people are not in some Goldilocks zone where they live and work within moderately short distances.

Anyone have the stat handy on how many people live within 4-5km of work? I think it is surprisingly high, like 60%+?

rubadub · 04-09-2019 11:53am

magicbastarder wrote: »

Ross telling retailers to inform e-scooter buyers of law is ‘nanny state gone mad’
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ross-telling-retailers-to-inform-e-scooter-buyers-of-law-is-nanny-state-gone-mad-1.4006371

while i have sympathy with the retail association's reaction, some retailers have been downright lying to customers about the legalities of them.

David Fitzsimons, group chief executive of Retail Excellence Ireland, which represents more than 2,000 retailers in the Irish market, disputed there was an onus on shops to inform customers about the law.

“Retailers are not obliged to inform customers about their use, in the same way that if you bought a quad bike, or a motor bike, or a car, the salesman is not going to sit down with you and explain the rules of the road,” he said.

I would challenge anybody to find an Irish website selling cars which implies you can use it for you commute and require no tax, insurance. licence etc. Have any employed a law firm to actually say it is legal to drive a car on the road with no tax or insurance or licence, since that is what one of these scumbag conmen sellers did.

If the majority of car salesmen started lying to customers then I would have no objection for Ross asking for them to inform customers properly.

Grassey · 04-09-2019 11:58am

check_six wrote: »

Anyone have the stat handy on how many people live within 4-5km of work? I think it is surprisingly high, like 60%+?

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6td/

On average, workers lived within 15 Km of their place of work in 2016, up from 14.7 Km recorded five years previously. This refers to the straight-line distance for persons at work between their place of residence and their workplace address.

At county level the longest average straight line distances were recorded in Laois (25 Km) and Leitrim (23 Km) with the shortest in Dublin City (5.9 Km).

* I realise I didn't directly answer the question asked, but I'm sure some further digging around the CSO site might throw some more light on it

28mins is the average commute :eek:

plodder · 04-09-2019 12:06pm

is_that_so wrote: »

My objection is the lack of good public transport and there is neither horse nor cart in some cases. We are at the mercy of the decades of bad planning that has allowed the city to spread out so far and most people are not in some Goldilocks zone where they live and work within moderately short distances.

It may be heresy to say it, but I don't think land use planning in the Dublin region was all that bad historically. If anything, the belief that Dublin is an enormous sprawl has hindered the development of good public transport more than helped it. Every development from DART to Luas and now Metrolink was opposed by some serious commentators who said/say we don't have the population density to support it.

check_six · 04-09-2019 12:15pm

Grassey wrote: »

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-cp6ci/p6cii/p6td/

* I realise I didn't directly answer the question asked, but I'm sure some further digging around the CSO site might throw some more light on it

28mins is the average commute :eek:

Does it change in the urban centres, I wonder?

rubadub · 04-09-2019 12:18pm

Grassey wrote: »

28mins is the average commute :eek:

I would imagine this is underestimated.

I was saying in another thread how people often neglect true times in their commute. I have a 20min walk to the luas, 25min on luas, 10min walk after, so 55mins and if I had to be in for 9 I would be leaving at 7.50-7.55 to allow for delays on the luas arriving.

I knew people coming to work in Dublin from another county and train timetables meant they would arrive to work ~25mins early.

Somebody also mentioned how a cyclist might leave out the time taken to get the bike from a shed, and how long to lock it up in work or time taken to have a shower in work (if they did).

So when comparing commuting methods I personally would compare them as to what time I have to wake up in the morning at. I get to wake up ~50mins later if using a bike than a luas if I absolutely have to be in at 9am.

beauf · 04-09-2019 12:22pm

plodder wrote: »

It may be heresy to say it, but I don't think land use planning in the Dublin region was all that bad historically. If anything, the belief that Dublin is an enormous sprawl has hindered the development of good public transport more than helped it. Every development from DART to Luas and now Metrolink was opposed by some serious commentators who said/say we don't have the population density to support it.

There are always objections to every plan. Often because it effects people property value for no good reason.

I don't see how you can say planning wasn't bad. There are so many poorly designed junctions, cycle paths, road layouts, buildings, schemes. Its epidemic.

plodder · 04-09-2019 12:40pm

beauf wrote: »

There are always objections to every plan. Often because it effects people property value for no good reason.

True, but I was talking about economists like Sean Barrett and Colm McCarthy. We've listened to these people for far too long imo.

I don't see how you can say planning wasn't bad. There are so many poorly designed junctions, cycle paths, road layouts, buildings, schemes. Its epidemic.

I meant 'land use' purely in terms of where we built housing and the density thereof. Transport infrastructure is another matter, though roads, junctions etc have improved quite a bit in recent decades. It's the lack of a decent underground mass transit network that has held the city back in my view.

beauf · 04-09-2019 12:50pm

Our land use is to move everyone to one city or (cities). But not in it. We make them commute for hours a day in a car.

We might say these are normal problems. But there are solutions. We just don't want to do them.

Our approach to eScooters is a good example.

Lewotsil · 06-09-2019 6:41pm

Moflojo wrote: »

Be very wary of the RSA's approach to e-scooters. They appear to be trying to lobby for the wearing of PPE (helmets & hi-vis) as a condition for using e-scooters.

This, at the very least, would muddy the waters around the legality of wearing helmets and hi-vis while cycling, and e-scooters could also be used as a sort of Trojan horse by the RSA to get some kind of legislative foothold on mandatory helmets and hi-vis (their wet dream).

The RSA is fundamentally a victim-blaming organisation when it comes to anyone who doesn't use a car, so watch out.

Fully agree re. the RSA's intentions - it is currently a sham of a body with a vulnerable victim blaming bias..... look up their 'driveway safety' clip.....adults should hold the hands of children 8 years and younger in a driveway .:(:(:(

tomasrojo · 07-09-2019 8:28pm

https://twitter.com/LeoMCastaneda/status/1170172232192020483

Good headlights, I have to say.

beauf · 07-09-2019 11:35pm

Very impressive...

plodder · 08-09-2019 8:32am

Lewotsil wrote: »

Fully agree re. the RSA's intentions - it is currently a sham of a body with a vulnerable victim blaming bias..... look up their 'driveway safety' clip.....adults should hold the hands of children 8 years and younger in a driveway .:(:(:(

The driveway clip is fairly bizarre all right, but the letter referred to the other day about e-scooters was from the CEO of the RSA and she said in it that she isn't recommending the use of PPE being made mandatory. I don't see what more they can do.. If anything, it's the gardai who seem to be raising objections generally.

Been watching them a bit more lately and I think because of the lack of regulation, you are finding them on footpaths and roads, and switching regularly from one to the other. So, I think some certainty around that is needed urgently.

check_six · 08-09-2019 9:01am

tomasrojo wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LeoMCastaneda/status/1170172232192020483

Good headlights, I have to say.

Yeah, the headlights are good, which makes it all the more curious that I haven't seen a scooter with a decent rear light, even taking into account that positioning would be low by necessity. Just something bright and red would be a help.

The absence of the kind of eye catching biomotion you get with pedaling would really discourage me from using one in low light without any secondary light on my person too.

beauf · 08-09-2019 9:38am

plodder wrote: »

... I think because of the lack of regulation, you are finding them on footpaths and roads, and switching regularly from one to the other. So, I think some certainty around that is needed urgently.

Maybe it's the abysmal infrastructure.

Look cycle path from 3 arena to customs House.
That's the best they can do with 30ft wide pavement.
It's all over the place.

On the road, off the road, on the pavement off the pavement, one lane, two lanes, Contra flow, lights no lights and disappears entirely in some sections, bottle necks and pinch points. Every now and then for no obvious reason, a few car parking spots. Even lampposts in the middle of it. A confused mess.

No legislation in the world can fix that amount of disfunction.

is_that_so · 08-09-2019 10:01am

plodder wrote: »

It may be heresy to say it, but I don't think land use planning in the Dublin region was all that bad historically. If anything, the belief that Dublin is an enormous sprawl has hindered the development of good public transport more than helped it. Every development from DART to Luas and now Metrolink was opposed by some serious commentators who said/say we don't have the population density to support it.

I'm all in favour of public transport but we don't have enough of it and in the places it's needed. Allowing it to sprawl does reduce the density substantially and limit the options. For most areas that is the bus.

plodder · 08-09-2019 2:31pm

beauf wrote: »

Maybe it's the abysmal infrastructure.

Look cycle path from 3 arena to customs House.
That's the best they can do with 30ft wide pavement.
It's all over the place.

On the road, off the road, on the pavement off the pavement, one lane, two lanes, Contra flow, lights no lights and disappears entirely in some sections, bottle necks and pinch points. Every now and then for no obvious reason, a few car parking spots. Even lampposts in the middle of it. A confused mess.

No legislation in the world can fix that amount of disfunction.

I'm not sure what your point is. We don't need to legislate for them? And they remain illegal?

magicbastarder · 08-09-2019 4:05pm

i didn't get that from what he was saying. i got 'legislation on its own is not enough'.

beauf · 08-09-2019 4:31pm

plodder wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is. We don't need to legislate for them? And they remain illegal?

They'll still be driving all over the place for the reasons above.

ExoPolitic · 09-09-2019 8:01am

tomasrojo wrote: »

https://twitter.com/LeoMCastaneda/status/1170172232192020483

Good headlights, I have to say.

A brilliant example of good road utilisation, just look at how many scooters can use the road compared to just the two people in the cars going nowhere fast...

Brian? · 09-09-2019 8:11am

beauf wrote: »

Maybe it's the abysmal infrastructure.

Look cycle path from 3 arena to customs House.
That's the best they can do with 30ft wide pavement.
It's all over the place.

On the road, off the road, on the pavement off the pavement, one lane, two lanes, Contra flow, lights no lights and disappears entirely in some sections, bottle necks and pinch points. Every now and then for no obvious reason, a few car parking spots. Even lampposts in the middle of it. A confused mess.

No legislation in the world can fix that amount of disfunction.

This 100%. The infrastructure in Dublin for cycling and driving is abysmal. Even in the new areas they prioritise the car too much and it’s mayhem for cyclists.

Here is the Netherlands the bike paths are shared between scooters and bikes. It works grand because the infrastructure is great. On scooter under 50cc or the equivalent power for electric, there is no law requiring helmets.

The bike paths get right of way at every junction without traffic lights. Roundabouts are a dream here, bike path has right of way every time. In Dublin I felt like I was taking my life into my hands approaching any roundabout in traffic.

I have seen one collision between a car and a scooter in the year I’ve lived here and it was 100% the car ignoring a yield. It felt like I had a near miss a week in Ireland, I had 3 near misses once between Blessington and Celbridge. I’ve had one near miss here and it wasn’t that near, a van saw me a bit late at a roundabout and I was doing nearly 50 with a savage tailwind.

LeeroyJ. · 16-09-2019 11:26am

What do you guys reckon is the chance of them getting legalized here? Ive seen the media is starting their anti Escooter campaign already. Im expecting them to remain illegal.

beauf · 16-09-2019 11:30am

Car is king.

https://irishcycle.com/2019/09/06/whos-to-blame-for-a-lack-of-progress-on-cycling-in-dublin-city/

There is the same resistance to eScooters.

1bryan · 16-09-2019 12:23pm

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

What do you guys reckon is the chance of them getting legalized here? Ive seen the media is starting their anti Escooter campaign already. Im expecting them to remain illegal.

hopefully.

LeeroyJ. · 23-09-2019 2:29pm

I've been riding my Scooter for about 2 weeks at this point.

My only real commute is from the IFSC over Beckett Bridge, through grand canal and up the canal to Harcourt street. I'm on bicycle paths 80% of the way and I just adjust my speed to stay in the cyclist flow.

What I've noticed is that the short period I am on the road (between Grand canal dock bridge, past Google until back on the cyclist path at the canal) is that Taxi drivers go out of their way to be assholes, they speed up behind you, constantly honk for no reason even though you are far left of the road and generally will do everything to make you feel uncomfortable.

Has anyone else experienced this behaviour?

CramCycle · 23-09-2019 2:33pm

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

has anyone else experienced this behaviour?

Every cyclist in Dublin,

Utter Consternation · 23-09-2019 2:36pm

I saw a guy on an electric scooter towing another guy on a skateboard the other day.

Car pooling with the scooter. Sort of.

mondeo · 28-09-2019 1:23pm

I have my eye on one of these when they are properly legalized. I've been waiting for this. Seriously handy to have one of these, I can scoot to work and leave the effing car at home. F all traffic, it will be great stuff ! I was in Paris there in June and these things are everywhere.

Has there been any attacks on people with these ? Young lads pushing people off them and robbing them ? What sort of security do these things have if something like this happens ? I know common sense will prevail, there are going to be roads you probably wont be scooting down.

magicbastarder · 28-09-2019 2:52pm

Lifting e-scooter ban is safety risk, ministers warned
Allowing electric scooters on Irish roads could cause “major issues” because of their tiny wheels and speeds of up to 80km/h, a senior transport official has said.
He also raised the possibility of a rise in personal injury claims if e-scooters were allowed and said that Ireland should not copy jurisdictions with different “culture, legal and driver behaviours”.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/lifting-e-scooter-ban-is-safety-risk-ministers-warned-d3nl8vrcs

speeds of up to 80km/h?

is_that_so · 28-09-2019 2:59pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

Lifting e-scooter ban is safety risk, ministers warned
Allowing electric scooters on Irish roads could cause “major issues” because of their tiny wheels and speeds of up to 80km/h, a senior transport official has said.
He also raised the possibility of a rise in personal injury claims if e-scooters were allowed and said that Ireland should not copy jurisdictions with different “culture, legal and driver behaviours”.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/lifting-e-scooter-ban-is-safety-risk-ministers-warned-d3nl8vrcs

speeds of up to 80km/h?

It must have been a phone interview and they mistook the soft Irish 18 /eit(s)i:n/ for 80!

rubadub · 28-09-2019 5:43pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

speeds of up to 80km/h?

yep, and they do not all look like crazy souped up yokes either
https://www.zawione-group.de/elektroscooter/forca-evoking-3-7-vgt-rs-iii-1800-watt-highpower-edition/a-5002651

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Weebot-Dualtron-Ultra-Electric-Scooter/dp/B07N2QZ1NS

some do look quite different, the gardai seized one with a seat which was likely quite powerful.

think there are faster than 80km/h too.

Eamonnator · 28-09-2019 6:11pm

I've often wondered what happens, if you hit a pot hole or have to jam on the brakes on an Escooter, while travelling at 25/30kph.

magicbastarder · 28-09-2019 6:41pm

rubadub wrote: »

yep, and they do not all look like crazy souped up yokes either
https://www.zawione-group.de/elektroscooter/forca-evoking-3-7-vgt-rs-iii-1800-watt-highpower-edition/a-5002651

2700W is bananas. That's nearly 11 the limit for e-bikes.

Kaisr Sose · 28-09-2019 11:07pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

I've often wondered what happens, if you hit a pot hole or have to jam on the brakes on an Escooter, while travelling at 25/30kph.

I seen a guy going slow on the pavement on Hawkins Street last week. He hit a hole or uneven patch and the front wheel stopped. He went out the side door so to speak. If he was going faster he was over the steerer.

tomasrojo · 29-09-2019 11:56am

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I seen a guy going slow on the pavement on Hawkins Street last week. He hit a hole or uneven patch and the front wheel stopped. He went out the side door so to speak. If he was going faster he was over the steerer.

Based on my kids' scooters, yeah, the smaller the wheel and the higher the centre of gravity, the more likely you are to be pitched forward by even a small obstacle.

But motorised scooters don't have wheels as small as a child's scooter. I think 20km/h would be an ok top speed for them.

magicbastarder · 29-09-2019 11:59am

i think it was on twitter that i saw a comment that this fuss about e-scooters is like the fuss in the states about vaping. they're reportedly considering banning vaping, with an unproven record of health effects, rather than cigarettes; and if the safety issues over e-scooters are enough for calls to ban them, why aren't we banning cars?

tomasrojo · 29-09-2019 12:12pm

Interesting, non-health-related side issue with vaping ban being endorsed by Trump: it might cost him voters in some key swing states. Not sure if anyone has good numbers on this,but, as others pointed out (before the Ukraine memo) it would be a strange turn of events if vaping voters brought him down, instead of a reckoning for his crimes.

Kaisr Sose · 29-09-2019 12:36pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Based on my kids' scooters, yeah, the smaller the wheel and the higher the centre of gravity, the more likely you are to be pitched forward by even a small obstacle.

But motorised scooters don't have wheels as small as a child's scooter. I think 20km/h would be an ok top speed for them.

It was an odd incident. I was on the LUAS, thinking to myself; what an lazy idiot you are. If you are e-scooting at a fast walking pace on a pavement. With people on it, why not walk? I must have put a curse on him as almost immediately , the front wheel just stopped and he nearly fell. After that, he walked!!

TheChizler · 29-09-2019 1:34pm

Maybe he was only going walking pace on the sections with people walking? I've used them in the past and tried pushing them in places, you end up with cut ankles as any slight forward resistance causes the back wheel to lift and the whole thing pivots.

tomasrojo · 29-09-2019 3:27pm

I don't know, I have an instinctive dislike of people getting about on wheels where there are plenty of pedestrians.

I'm fine when there are next to no pedestrians around and sight lines are good and you go at a walking pace, but otherwise, better not.

rsa supporting e-scooters

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