rsa supporting e-scooters

Ray Palmer · 03-12-2019 12:58pm

Last week there was a guy on an electric skateboard in front of me. He was weaving all over the road. Squeezed between two moving buses and I thought he was dead but he was just both crazy and lucky.
I used to skateboard and the smallest pebble can throw you. He was going over 25kph. Zero road sense. Think of the worst cyclist you saw in your life and this guy beat them.

rubadub · 03-12-2019 1:07pm

JMcL wrote: »

The Xiaomi ones are being sold in both Halfords and Harvey Norman - I think the latter had a big discount on them last week. Nary a mention of the legal status of them that I could see

Halfords had noticies.

I see this on HN

https://www.harveynorman.ie/gaming/kaiser-baas-revo-e3-electric-scooter-black-silver.html

The REVO E3 350W is a commuters dream, with a foldable frame, you can get from A to B with ease at speeds up to 30km/h. Cruise control, a large LED screen and 3-speed modes take the effort out of the ride so you can have a smooth commute.

So 30km/h is faster than most places would allow where they are legal, and they do infer it can be used to commute, which would lead people to think it can be used on roads.

https://www.halfords.ie/kids-zone/scooters/electric-scooters/xiaomi-mi-m365-electric-scooter-black
in big bold font

Please note that this scooter is not to be used on public highways, only on private property with the owner's consent.

TheBoyConor · 03-12-2019 2:10pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

It's fascinating to see scooters take up the position in the transport ecosystem that Segways were always hyped up for.

The problem with segways is that they are big wide awkward yokes. They are really heavy too. used on a footpath they will take up too much room and clash with pedestrians. They are also much heavier and cannot be folded up and stored under a desk for example.

Another thing that I am predicting is the inevitable spate of office fires due to faulty scooter batteries overheating and catching fire while charging under desks and in drying rooms, cupbords etc.. We must remember that the cheaper examples are of dubious oriental origin and quality and origin of their batteries and chargers is probably even more indeterminate.

Lumen · 03-12-2019 3:31pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I used to skateboard and the smallest pebble can throw you. He was going over 25kph. Zero road sense. Think of the worst cyclist you saw in your life and this guy beat them.

I was looking at electric skateboards/longboards recently. They go up to about 40kph. On skateboard wheels. Madness.

Digging a bit deeper it seemed that you can't really ride them in the wet either, because they are not properly waterproofed or there isn't enough grip to stay alive. Which is fine if you're in California, but not Ireland...

The "off road" ones look better, and at least if you hit a pothole you can jump off the front, whereas on a kick scooter you're in world of pain.

CramCycle · 03-12-2019 4:54pm

I presume someone from here has been onto HN since this morning:

Please note: the RSA is currently undertaking research on behalf of the Department of Transport, Tourism, and Sport regarding the use of E-Scooters in Ireland. The ‘Use of Electric Scooters Bill 2019’ is currently before the D. For more information please see https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/bills/bill/2019/72/ -

The use of a helmet is recommended.

he REVO E3 350W is a commuters dream, with a foldable frame, you can get from A to B with ease at speeds up to 25km/h. Cruise control, a large LED screen and 3-speed modes take the effort out of the ride so you can have a smooth ride. The removable battery means you can leave your E-Scooter in storage and take the battery out to charge inside.

rubadub · 04-12-2019 10:54am

rubadub wrote: »

Saw a guy being nabbed by a garda on the N11 this morning at cornelscourt, possibly this lad on the monowheel.

The guy was back on it today, I was talking to him at the lights and he said she just warned him to stick to cycle tracks and not be on footpaths.

There was a male garda in the same area this morning, this time at the lights, I was saying hello to him, he was right at the road so yer man had to pass him. I looked back and saw the guy passed on the monowheel with nothing said.

So no crackdown or and I still have no idea why the gardai are at that spot where there is never an issue!

Stark · 04-12-2019 10:58am

I know the phrase "don't the guards have something better to be doing?" gets trotted out often, but really? A garda camped out for hours just to stop a guy on a monowheel from using the footpath? I hope they're there for something else and the monowheel thing was just an opportunistic.

magicbastarder · 04-12-2019 11:15am

https://twitter.com/Cianmm/status/1202145439388229632

magicbastarder · 04-12-2019 11:21am

as to why they're at it today:

Today, Monday 2nd December 2019 An Garda Síochána has commenced Operation 'Open City' which will continue until Christmas Eve.

The aim of Operation Open City is ‘To facilitate the movement of Public Transport and minimise traffic disruption to the general public, through high visibility and enforcement activity’ in Dublin, Cork and Limerick.

Operation ‘Open City’ involves a multi-agency approach between An Garda Síochána, The National Transport Authority, Local Authorities and transport providers. ‘Open City’ is a high visibility enforcement operation with Gardaí patrolling major arterial routes and link roads during core commuter hours. There will also be particular focus on traffic management issues around car parks at major shopping areas. During the operation enhanced communication will be provided to the public by An Garda Síochána and relevant stakeholders through the use of social media (@GardaTraffic), websites, smart phone apps and roadside variable message signs.

The 197 newly attested Gardaí who graduated last Friday 29th November 2019 take up operational duty today. The 89 Gardaí assigned to the Dublin Region, 32 Gardaí to Cork City and 32 to Limerick City have all been deployed to ‘Open City’. They will support Garda Roads Policing Units and local Garda patrols to help people get about their day’s business, and enjoy the seasonal festivities. The remaining 44 newly attested Gardaí have been deployed to border Divisions.

https://www.garda.ie/en/about-us/our-departments/office-of-corporate-communications/press-releases/2019/december/operation-open-city-2019.html

plodder · 04-12-2019 11:25am

Yes, there was a lot of bus lane policing today. I saw a car pull into the bus lane and immediately double back when he saw the gardai ahead, which made me think, they need to be much more sneaky about it. There's no deterrent effect if people can avoid detection so easily, and the enforcement so rare and seasonal.

blackwhite · 04-12-2019 11:30am

plodder wrote: »

Yes, there was a lot of bus lane policing today. I saw a car pull into the bus lane and immediately double back when he saw the gardai ahead, which made me think, they need to be much more sneaky about it. There's no deterrent effect if people can avoid detection so easily, and the enforcement so rare and seasonal.

They had a squad car parked in the entrance to the British Embassy on Merrion Rd yesterday morning, trying to hide from view.

LeeroyJ. · 04-12-2019 11:52am

Gardai have been handling E-Scooter well so far in my opinion. I have yet to see them stop anyone using them responsibly and I used mine every day for about 6 months commuting 5km to work each way. I've seen them stop people taking the piss like speeding on sidewalks, running red lights and driving scooter that should be classified as Motorcycles.

I recently had to stop using mine as my office forbid people bringing them inside, and we don't have any real facilities to lock them up (e scooters can't really be locked anyway as they can be dismantled in 1 minute with a screwdriver)

rubadub · 04-12-2019 2:56pm

Stark wrote: »

A garda camped out for hours just to stop a guy on a monowheel from using the footpath? I hope they're there for something else and the monowheel thing was just an opportunistic.

I was saying in todays post that it must not have been for him, or it would have been seized yesterday. And todays different garda didn't stop him at all.

I still have no idea why they are at that junction, there is no trouble with cars in bus lanes there, or breaking lights or pedestrian issues, while further up at white cross it is comical what goes on.

cdaly_ · 04-12-2019 7:00pm

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

I recently had to stop using mine as my office forbid people bringing them inside, and we don't have any real facilities to lock them up (e scooters can't really be locked anyway as they can be dismantled in 1 minute with a screwdriver)

Bring a black binbag in your pocket.
Fold scooter and place in bag.
Carry in to work.
Claim it's an Xmas pressie for a colleague and you can't show it...

rubadub · 04-12-2019 7:03pm

cdaly_ wrote: »

Bring a black binbag in your pocket.

Fold scooter and place in bag.

Carry in to work.

Claim it's an Xmas pressie for a colleague and you can't show it...

5. come up with a new plan for the next day as you can't be pulling that one every day!

magicbastarder · 04-12-2019 7:07pm

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

I recently had to stop using mine as my office forbid people bringing them inside, and we don't have any real facilities to lock them up

does your employer provide car parking?

rubadub · 10-12-2019 10:34am

Electric Scooter Rider in Ireland Given Five Penalty Points and €300 Fine

Weepsie · 10-12-2019 10:42am

We had to stop students bringing them into work (3rd level place) as they were becoming trip hazards. When the place is full, there really is nowhere to really leave them, and they're bulky enough to leave about.

IF I were remotely enterprising and had any skill, I could make some sort of Scooter lockers. You could easily store loads vertically in a small individual lockers. Need them to get more popular still though.

magicbastarder · 10-12-2019 10:44am

rubadub wrote: »

Electric Scooter Rider in Ireland Given Five Penalty Points and €300 Fine

utterly bananas.

Weepsie · 10-12-2019 10:45am

rubadub wrote: »

Electric Scooter Rider in Ireland Given Five Penalty Points and €300 Fine

And this is absurd. They're not legislated for, so how can the fine and points be handed down as if it's something that is legislated for.

That's more than you get for speeding in a car. Jobsworth

Macy0161 · 10-12-2019 10:48am

rubadub wrote: »

So no crackdown or and I still have no idea why the gardai are at that spot where there is never an issue!

I've seen them at the Johnstown Road junction a few times the last few weeks. I'd hoped it was for red light jumping, as those lights are ridiculous for having green and still several cars crossing.

magicbastarder · 10-12-2019 10:50am

Weepsie wrote: »

And this is absurd. They're not legislated for, so how can the fine and points be handed down as if it's something that is legislated for.

it *is* legislated for though. driving a motorised vehicle without tax, insurance, or a helmet.
the problem is not that they are not legislated for, it's that the applying legislation has not been modified.

Chips Lovell · 10-12-2019 10:52am

I think the problem is that they are legislated for, just not in the way their users would like. The definition of a mechanically propelled vehicle under law is:

“mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

(a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

(b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

rubadub · 10-12-2019 10:55am

Weepsie wrote: »

And this is absurd. They're not legislated for, so how can the fine and points be handed down as if it's something that is legislated for.

This is what was asked in the electric vehicle forum, some saying points were highly unlikely but I thought they were. Its an MPV, if all you had to do was have a vehicle that did not fall under legistlation I was asking if you could simply modify a car in some way that it was no longer defined as "a car" under law, and so you could get away with it. Or if forumla one cars are not legistlated for could you drive one down the M50 and not expect points as it "cannot be insured of taxed".

Macy0161 wrote: »

I've seen them at the Johnstown Road junction a few times the last few weeks.

I saw a garda stopping a car on the N11 at cornelscourt this morning, in the empty bus lane and traffic was moving just fine, no need for the car to have been in it. Then at whites cross there was no garda again, I counted 22 cars in the lane before the broken line, so I reckon I have seen up to 60 cars in that lane before. And these certainly ARE a hazard as a few weeks ago I saw a ambulance struggling to get through them all, they all had to drive up onto the cyclepath.

beauf · 10-12-2019 11:24am

Weepsie wrote: »

And this is absurd. They're not legislated for, so how can the fine and points be handed down as if it's something that is legislated for.

That's more than you get for speeding in a car. Jobsworth

If you decided to build a rocket powered sofa and use it on the road, it would be a problem. There has to be "catch all" legally for something like that.

magicbastarder · 10-12-2019 11:36am

i wonder if i was to try to commute on one of Theo Jansen's Strandebeests, what vehicle category would that fall into? damn hard to steer the things though.

beauf · 10-12-2019 11:40am

We should all have these...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTgLnUgzZYk

CramCycle · 10-12-2019 1:15pm

Weepsie wrote: »

And this is absurd. They're not legislated for, so how can the fine and points be handed down as if it's something that is legislated for.

It is legislated for though, as Chips said. What it needs is an exception which has of yet, to be provided.

That's more than you get for speeding in a car. Jobsworth

Which is the bigger issue I suppose although I imagine the €300 was not for one offence, and hte judge would have to be careful that if he handeed less then, some legal arsehole might say well, no tax/insurance etc. should only be €300 and some penalty points.

Case in point, there is an electric scooter on my commute, see him more and more, he rides in the bike lane, occasionally goes onto the footpath to get round slower cyclists. The issue here is optics, he is faster than many scooters but he has also put a seat on it, so from an optics point of view, he is riding an electric moped. It is just as fast, but the only difference between him and a scooter is that he sits down which arguably makes him more balanced Therefore, if we are OK with scooters, we should be OK with him. If we are OK with him, we should be OK with emotorbikes, if we are ok with them, why do regular mopeds need any of the bells and whistles of tax or insurance and so on.

Until an exemption is made, the Gardai and the judge are correct, I don't agree with it entirely and it is good to see discretion being used by most Gardai but until an exemption is made, just be careful what you ant exempt as it needs to be clearly defined or else all hell breaks loose.

Another big issue directly related to this though is the delay from the RSA and the minister in acting to get any exemption through the Dail, whereas, as alluded ot earlier, autonomous cars are flying through to get testing and approved.

rubadub wrote: »

I saw a garda stopping a car on the N11 at cornelscourt this morning, in the empty bus lane and traffic was moving just fine, no need for the car to have been in it. Then at whites cross there was no garda again, I counted 22 cars in the lane before the broken line, so I reckon I have seen up to 60 cars in that lane before. And these certainly ARE a hazard as a few weeks ago I saw a ambulance struggling to get through them all, they all had to drive up onto the cyclepath.

Jesus, at Whites cross this morning, same thing, two ambulances, sirens and lights and not one person would move.

rubadub · 10-12-2019 1:21pm

Posted in another thread

AhHaor wrote: »

I'm struggling to find the case. He doesn't have anything linked and there's no other results when it's googled. Kinda odd.

I cannot find anything either, but can see no real reason for him to be spoofing. He is pro scooters so would more likely not want to be scaring people off getting them.

Fian · 10-12-2019 6:00pm

rubadub wrote: »

Posted in another thread

I cannot find anything either, but can see no real reason for him to be spoofing. He is pro scooters so would more likely not want to be scaring people off getting them.

It would have been decided in the district court, so there will be no judgment and no reported case.

As others have pointed out there is a specific exception for "pedal cycles" to take them out of the requirement to have a licence/tax/insurance, which has not been made for e-scooters.

Interestingly this means that if you are injured by an e-scooted you could claim off MIBI - so effectively your claim would be indirectly covered by all insured drivers through their premiums, in the same way as they cover claims against uninsured motorists in cars.

RSA website is clear now that it is unlawful to ride an e-scooter, not sure when that was updated.

Eamonnator · 11-12-2019 8:23pm

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sutherland-breaks-leg-in-electric-scooter-crash-at-israel-training-camp/

Be careful out there on your e-scooters.

unhappyBB · 31-12-2019 6:23pm

Another push for legislation:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/lime-seeks-e-scooter-legalisation-but-with-cap-on-speed-1.4126851

Thargor · 21-03-2020 5:08pm

Are the Guards seizing much scooters these days or are they ignoring them?

beauf · 21-03-2020 6:43pm

I think everyone's too busy to care.

A low cost eco way to travel especially when people don't want to use public transport or petrol stations. People will have tighter budgets. Yeah let's sit/ignore on that legislation for a few years.

CramCycle · 22-03-2020 9:03am

Pretty much, they appear to be alot like cyclists and motorists. The majority of e scooter users are mannerly, safe and pose no credible issue. There are still a few who are Muppets but they seem to be in the minority.

silverharp · 22-03-2020 1:28pm

at the moment using public transport is being far more antisocial than using an e-scooter

rubadub · 22-03-2020 3:20pm

Thargor wrote: »

Are the Guards seizing much scooters these days or are they ignoring them?

I have noticed a drop in usage in my area & commute. There was 1 in my workplace and I no longer see it, a new woman also started who said he had one but no longer uses it for fear of it being seized -and how she would love to use it to save so much time. Another lad kept talking of getting one but the law put him off too.

LeeroyJ. · 11-05-2020 10:18am

UK is fast tracking legislation due to COVID19: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/09/uk-to-invest-cycle-lanes-coronavirus-air-pollution

Since we often still look to the UK for decision-making this might be positive for them getting some sort of legislation over here too.

1bryan · 11-05-2020 10:28am

LeeroyJ. wrote: »

UK is fast tracking legislation due to COVID19: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/09/uk-to-invest-cycle-lanes-coronavirus-air-pollution

Since we often still look to the UK for decision-making this might be positive for them getting some sort of legislation over here too.

hopefully not.

the days of following the UK in terms of doing anything, should be well in the past given their recent ineptitude when it comes to just about everything.

I see a place for e-scooters, on a temporary basis, in order to keep people off public transport. But once roads start getting busy again, until the infrastructure is developed so that e-scooters can be segregated from both cyclists and from motor traffic, and an appropriate taxation system is in place for them, there is still no place for them in any of the major cities in Ireland.

Thargor · 11-05-2020 10:32am

Nothing wrong with scooters and cyclists mixing tbh, they're not that different, not to the point of needing separate road infrastructure anyway.

Stark · 11-05-2020 10:32am

1bryan wrote: »

I see a place for e-scooters, on a temporary basis, in order to keep people off public transport. But once roads start getting busy again, until the infrastructure is developed so that e-scooters can be segregated from both cyclists and from motor traffic, and an appropriate taxation system is in place for them, there is still no place for them in any of the major cities in Ireland.

"They don't even pay road tax Joe!".

I suggest an emissions based tax like for motor vehicles.

1bryan · 11-05-2020 10:35am

Stark wrote: »

"They don't even pay road tax Joe!".

I suggest an emissions based tax like for motor vehicles.

Why did you put that bit in quotes? I never said that.

Also, there is no such thing as 'road tax', so why would you be so naive as to suggest that there is?

1bryan · 11-05-2020 10:36am

Thargor wrote: »

Nothing wrong with scooters and cyclists mixing tbh, they're not that different, not to the point of needing separate road infrastructure anyway.

not that different? LOL.

They need different infrastructure or else they should remain illegal.

marcos_94 · 11-05-2020 10:36am

1bryan wrote: »

hopefully not.

the days of following the UK in terms of doing anything, should be well in the past given their recent ineptitude when it comes to just about everything.

I see a place for e-scooters, on a temporary basis, in order to keep people off public transport. But once roads start getting busy again, until the infrastructure is developed so that e-scooters can be segregated from both cyclists and from motor traffic, and an appropriate taxation system is in place for them, there is still no place for them in any of the major cities in Ireland.

Please explain why e-scooters should have a tax system but not cyclists, or pedestrians while were at it

Id also appreciate if you could explain why you believe e-scooters require separate infrastructure too

1bryan · 11-05-2020 10:42am

marcos_94 wrote: »

Please explain why e-scooters should have a tax system but not cyclists, or pedestrians while were at it

Id also appreciate if you could explain why you believe e-scooters require separate infrastructure too

why so you think pedestrians or cyclists should have a tax system?

infrastucture: because the speed and lack of visibility of e-scooters, on infrastructure that was not designed for them, presents a needless hazard for cyclists.

beauf · 11-05-2020 11:04am

I don't see a problem with Scooters and Cyclists mixing if ridden responsibly. But thats a matter of enforcement.

That said I haven't had to share the road with many.

marcos_94 · 11-05-2020 11:06am

1bryan wrote: »

why so you think pedestrians or cyclists should have a tax system?

I dont think cyclists, pedestrians or e-scooters should have a tax system. Im asking you why you think e-scooters should have a tax system but not cyclists

infrastucture: because the speed and lack of visibility of e-scooters, on infrastructure that was not designed for them, presents a needless hazard for cyclists.

With regards to speed, the most popular e-scooter manufacturers and models (Xiaomi, Ninebot, GoTrax) are limited to 25-28 kph. There are of course models that can go faster but are significantly more expensive. I dont have one but do cycle and can tell you thats not a difficult speed to maintain while cycling.

With regards to visibility, again, the most popular e-scooters all appear to have in built front and rear lights. This is much better than bikes where lights are extras and a significant share of cyclists dont wear high visibility clothing, nor have lights on their bikes.

Please elaborate on how existing cycling infrastructure is inadequate for e-scooters. I dont think there is any reason why e-scooters are incapable of using cycle lanes or us lanes when a cycle lane is not available, as cyclists do at the moment

LeinsterDub · 11-05-2020 11:14am

1bryan wrote: »

hopefully not.

the days of following the UK in terms of doing anything, should be well in the past given their recent ineptitude when it comes to just about everything.

I see a place for e-scooters, on a temporary basis, in order to keep people off public transport. But once roads start getting busy again, until the infrastructure is developed so that e-scooters can be segregated from both cyclists and from motor traffic, and an appropriate taxation system is in place for them, there is still no place for them in any of the major cities in Ireland.

Simple way to segregate cyclists , pedestrians and e-scooters removing the most space inefficient vehicles from roads that don't have space

LeinsterDub · 11-05-2020 11:17am

1bryan wrote: »

why so you think pedestrians or cyclists should have a tax system?

infrastucture: because the speed and lack of visibility of e-scooters, on infrastructure that was not designed for them, presents a needless hazard for cyclists.

This is a typical nonsense argument from motorist ,

We can't have x until we have infrastructure for x.
Okay lets build it so .
No one is using x there is clearly no demand for infrastructure of x

ted1 · 11-05-2020 11:18am

marcos_94 wrote: »

Please elaborate on how existing cycling infrastructure is inadequate for e-scooters. I dont think there is any reason why e-scooters are incapable of using cycle lanes or us lanes when a cycle lane is not available, as cyclists do at the moment

Wheel size makes a difference, hitting a pothole or kerb with a road bike wheel is much more forgiving than hitting one with a scooter tyre

rsa supporting e-scooters

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