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Local Elections 2019

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    #512
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,463 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Last weekend the Lamass and Haughty family trees appeared for FF in the form of grandchildren of two of our former Taosigh running in the local elections. It got me wondering are the Colley family still out in the cold with FF ? I know former Taniste George Colley's daugher was elected as a TD for the PD's but anyone of any other family members ?


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    #513
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    You've career politicians coming out of university and joining HQ to tell people in working class areas what's going to happen next with their party and who they'll be parachuting in to run in their area. That needs to stop.
    But Left-wing parties are almost all like that. The number of representatives who are genuinely "working class" is usually quite small, as they don't generally have the background which would allow them to sit around at college reading Marx and debating Engels - most are too busy trying to make a bit of money. Generally some wealthy know-it-all takes on the onerous responsibility of slowly explaining to the undereducated working class types the benefits of class warfare.

    A big problem for the self-styled 'Left' in this country is that the party of the working class is (much as I dislike them) Fianna Fail. Labour is like FG, very much a middle-class party. The self-styled 'left' in this country keep looking for votes from the relatively small number of voters who are largely takers from the state. The problem for SF is they have hitched their wagon to this small group, when they should have been hanging on to the FF voters who gave them a vote last time out (who are now returning to their previous home). I grew up in a working class area, and the vast majority of them don't want social housing or to mix with social housing recipients - they want a nice middle class house, and their kids to go on to become engineers.


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    #514
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Labour needs a rebuild from the top down. The grassroots are used as pawns. It's too top lead for a supposed socialist leaning party. You've career politicians coming out of university and joining HQ to tell people in working class areas what's going to happen next with their party and who they'll be parachuting in to run in their area. That needs to stop.

    Paul Murphy isn't in the Labour Party, and he is the clearest example of someone who meets your definition of the problem.

    You could pick a dozen Sinn Fein activists and label them the same.

    Despite the likes of Harris, those kind of people are less common in the bigger parties. It is really endemic across the left, think of the former Democratic Left politicians as examples, not just Labour, Sinn Fein and PBP.


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    #515
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,291 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Paul Murphy isn't in the Labour Party, and he is the clearest example of someone who meets your definition of the problem.

    You could pick a dozen Sinn Fein activists and label them the same.

    Despite the likes of Harris, those kind of people are less common in the bigger parties. It is really endemic across the left, think of the former Democratic Left politicians as examples, not just Labour, Sinn Fein and PBP.

    There are several people I know in FG high up, who despised FG for most of their life till opportunities presented.

    Big parties are where the most cynical go, it did for FF, if you were on the make you joined them, **** beliefs, get in and up.


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    #516
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    hmmm wrote: »
    But Left-wing parties are almost all like that. The number of representatives who are genuinely "working class" is usually quite small, as they don't generally have the background which would allow them to sit around at college reading Marx and debating Engels - most are too busy trying to make a bit of money. Generally some wealthy know-it-all takes on the onerous responsibility of slowly explaining to the undereducated working class types the benefits of class warfare.

    A big problem for the self-styled 'Left' in this country is that the party of the working class is (much as I dislike them) Fianna Fail. Labour is like FG, very much a middle-class party. The self-styled 'left' in this country keep looking for votes from the relatively small number of voters who are largely takers from the state. The problem for SF is they have hitched their wagon to this small group, when they should have been hanging on to the FF voters who gave them a vote last time out (who are now returning to their previous home). I grew up in a working class area, and the vast majority of them don't want social housing or to mix with social housing recipients - they want a nice middle class house, and their kids to go on to become engineers.

    So some working class are takers and some are trying to improve their lot. Describes everybody in all classes. We have people at the top taking more from the tax payer than any low income community ever could.

    My impression of Labour is as I've described it and follows with much of the first part of your comments. I think we need to stop putting people in boxes. The clear majority of Irish voters float. They make or break government. People left Labour because they didn't like how the party was. These people would be left leaning, likely signed up under the impression Labour was too. There are genuine people in politics. As I say, it would benefit everyone if the parties were more accurate in how they sell themselves. People saw through Labour and they are paying for it.
    Not sure what happened to SF and am disgusted FF are on the rise.


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    #517
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Paul Murphy isn't in the Labour Party, and he is the clearest example of someone who meets your definition of the problem.

    You could pick a dozen Sinn Fein activists and label them the same.

    Despite the likes of Harris, those kind of people are less common in the bigger parties. It is really endemic across the left, think of the former Democratic Left politicians as examples, not just Labour, Sinn Fein and PBP.

    But I and others are discussing Labour.
    Pulling up Paul Murphy is interesting, was he down the back of the couch?
    Paul Murphy is why Labour HQ is middle class and dictates down to grassroots? Weird.

    Again my experience is with Labour. My criticising Labour is not a defense of Paul Murphy or SF. I shouldn't have to call you out on what you already know. You are only interested in attacking SF. You've a point, but your comments read like I'm picking on Labour to spare Paul Murphy/SF's blushes. A post was made regarding Labour and I commented on it and here you are wedging in Paul Murphy...
    You can only have those kind of people in left leaning parties that's why it's less common in the others.


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    #518
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    But I and others are discussing Labour.
    Pulling up Paul Murphy is interesting, was he down the back of the couch?
    Paul Murphy is why Labour HQ is middle class and dictates down to grassroots? Weird.

    Again my experience is with Labour. My criticising Labour is not a defense of Paul Murphy or SF. I shouldn't have to call you out on what you already know. You are only interested in attacking SF. You've a point, but your comments read like I'm picking on Labour to spare Paul Murphy/SF's blushes. A post was made regarding Labour and I commented on it and here you are wedging in Paul Murphy...
    You can only have those kind of people in left leaning parties that's why it's less common in the others.

    You identified people coming out of college and going into politics as a particular problem with Labour losing touch. I pointed out how common it is across the left-wing spectrum.

    It could be part of the explanation for the drop in support for left-wing parties as seen in these elections.


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    #519
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    You identified people coming out of college and going into politics as a particular problem with Labour losing touch. I pointed out how common it is across the left-wing spectrum.

    It could be part of the explanation for the drop in support for left-wing parties as seen in these elections.

    Agreed. However the discussion was Labour. A poster pointed out problems with Labour and I followed on. Ironically putting every other left leaning party in the same box is part of the problem IMO, while FF/FG somehow seem to enjoy the image of being different from each other.
    I can only speak to labour specifically, I'd be surmising about the other parties.


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    #520
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Agreed. However the discussion was Labour. A poster pointed out problems with Labour and I followed on. Ironically putting every other left leaning party in the same box is part of the problem IMO, while FF/FG somehow seem to enjoy the image of being different from each other.
    I can only speak to labour specifically, I'd be surmising about the other parties.

    I am not putting all left-leaning parties into the same box, but if there are particular problems with Labour, and I would agree that there are, identifying those problems necessitates a comparison with others as to whether these problems are uniquely Labour's.


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    #521
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I am not putting all left-leaning parties into the same box, but if there are particular problems with Labour, and I would agree that there are, identifying those problems necessitates a comparison with others as to whether these problems are uniquely Labour's.

    I would say discussing labour specifically requires no comparison unless anyone is suggesting Labour's issues are unique. When we talk about Fine Gael's cronyism we don't need to compare to Fianna Fail's cronyism. Not saying you're wrong it's just refreshing to discuss something without it being dragged into any agenda.


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    #522
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,361 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    real working class people often don't vote
    they're either too busy working, or too busy doing nothing spending the handouts

    that's the main issue for proper left wing politics


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    #523
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I would say discussing labour specifically requires no comparison unless anyone is suggesting Labour's issues are unique. When we talk about Fine Gael's cronyism we don't need to compare to Fianna Fail's cronyism. Not saying you're wrong it's just refreshing to discuss something without it being dragged into any agenda.

    Well, it does. If you say that the problem with Labour is that all their elected politicians are male, or over 40, and when you look at all other parties, the profile is the same, then you know that isn't the particular problem. No more than that.

    So when I point to the characteristics of left-wing parties having people who came straight to politics from college being common characteristics, then that isn't the specific problem affecting Labour.


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    #524
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    beggars_bush wrote: »
    real working class people often don't vote
    they're either too busy working, or too busy doing nothing spending the handouts

    that's the main issue for proper left wing politics

    Or they're use to getting used as pawns or being generalised as looking for handouts and figure what's the point?
    Varadkar's 'people who like to get up early of a morning' quip was the height of ignorance coming from the political leader of the country IMO.

    People concerned or annoyed over handouts and the like should note we've only ever had FF/FG lead governments so blaming the left, while handy for FF/FG, won't change things.


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    #525
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Or they're use to getting used as pawns or being generalised as looking for handouts and figure what's the point?
    Varadkar's 'people who like to get up early of a morning' quip was the height of ignorance coming from the political leader of the country IMO.

    People concerned or annoyed over handouts and the like should note we've only ever had FF/FG lead governments so blaming the left, while handy for FF/FG, won't change things.

    FF are a populist party, a more robust version of Sinn Fein who are really FF lite.

    That is why you see Willie O'Dea jumping up and down every budget about the €5 for the pensioners, even if more deserving social welfare recipients are getting nothing, or the workers who pay for the pensions are getting less. Why? Because pensioners vote.

    People like that sort of politics because it is popular and full of slogans. Sinn Fein managed to steal FF's clothes for a couple of years, and benefitted, but the sad thing is that a large section of Irish people will always vote for the party that promises an easy life. For years that was FF, now they have competition from SF and PBP.

    Where you can criticise Varadkar is that he is more like FF and SF, adopting populist positions for the sake of it. To date, he hasn't damaged the country like FF did and SF would, but we are in a dangerous situation because of Brexit and a looming world economic downturn and the next budget is critical.


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    #526
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    The decision of the electorate hasn't gone down well with 1 particular councillor in Limerick.
    Sean Lynch, who lost his council seat over the weekend, has accused people from his village of Patrickswell, Co Limerick, of giving him "the two fingers".

    It comes after the former detective garda councillor saw his hopes of retaining his local authority seat for Fianna Fáil dashed.

    "This has been a huge disappointment for everybody. We have done so much for the village of Patrickswell. And they gave us the two fingers," he said.

    Mr Lynch, who helped bring to justice some of the feuding criminal elements in Limerick, even suggested there may have been an anti-Garda sentiment to his rejection at the polling booths.

    "Patrickswell didn't come out and vote for me. They didn't come out and support me. They got a huge amount of things. It means nothing to them," he said.

    "We have done so much for the villages of Patrickswell and Clarina, and they have given us the two fingers.

    "They didn't want someone who was decent, a hard worker."

    Mr Lynch, a detective garda at Roxboro for almost 30 years, said there was still a feeling of anti-Garda sentiment in the village.

    "Patrickswell has history. There is an element there," he said.

    "You must remember what happened to Jerry McCabe, that's not gone away.

    "There is a big anti-Garda audience out there," he added.

    Det Gda Jerry McCabe was shot dead by IRA forces in 1996 in the neighbouring village of Adare.

    "Limerick City West has failed us - we are decent people, we have never done wrong to anybody," said Mr Lynch.

    "Our door was always open, no matter who the people were. We've helped so many people. But unfortunately they have come out and spoken and unfortunately they've made a wrong call.


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    #527
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    amcalester wrote: »
    The decision of the electorate hasn't gone down well with 1 particular councillor in Limerick.


    Definitely a statement you give to the mirror in the bathroom, not the press.


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    #528
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,797 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Local SFer gave a similar statement to the local papers, saying that she was needed on the council to "protect" people and that there was "no left wing" now.

    Area has 1 GP and 1 Labour. She went out on the first count. Hopefully that statement is remembered if she runs again.


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    #529
    For Forks Sake
    Registered Users Posts: 11,484 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake


    amcalester wrote: »
    The decision of the electorate hasn't gone down well with 1 particular councillor in Limerick.

    Not quite Frank McBrearty levels of rant, but with a bit of fine-tuning he'll get there...

    proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi66.tinypic.com%2Foabvw7.jpg&hash=dd3e97cfe6102bb404b6c5043cd3851c


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    #530
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,797 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    McBrearty's rant was after getting re-elected on a reduced vote though - that's extra special.


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    #531
    For Forks Sake
    Registered Users Posts: 11,484 ✭✭✭✭For Forks Sake


    L1011 wrote: »
    McBrearty's rant was after getting re-elected on a reduced vote though - that's extra special.

    he went for the Dail in 2016 and failed miserably, the rant was posted about 30 seconds after the first count was done.

    https://electionsireland.org/result.cfm?election=2016&cons=68


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    #532
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,797 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Must have had two as he did one when he got in as an Independent in 2014 also.


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    #533
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    amcalester wrote: »
    The decision of the electorate hasn't gone down well with 1 particular councillor in Limerick.

    Reminds me of Pat Rabbite. They expect to buy votes by the sound of it. Even if the person you didn't vote for wins they've a duty to represent you. This chap obviously was found wanting.


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    #534
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,048 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Surely John O'Donohues rant in Kerry after he lost his seat has to be top of the list.


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    #535
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,797 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    Surely John O'Donohues rant in Kerry after he lost his seat has to be top of the list.

    I'd forgotten about that - insisting he and he alone had pork barreled the count centre!

    It was outdone by the applause and cheering both times Roche got eliminated (recount) in Wicklow as the high point of GE11 for me.


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    #536
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,448 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Labour needs a rebuild from the top down. The grassroots are used as pawns. It's too top lead for a supposed socialist leaning party. You've career politicians coming out of university and joining HQ to tell people in working class areas what's going to happen next with their party and who they'll be parachuting in to run in their area. That needs to stop.

    While you're not a million miles off the truth here, who have Labour parachuted in recently?


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    #537
    votecounts
    Registered Users Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭votecounts


    amcalester wrote: »
    The decision of the electorate hasn't gone down well with 1 particular councillor in Limerick.
    Sounds like a bitter loser to me. You have to take the good with the bad in politics.


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    #538
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,816 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    bren2001 wrote: »
    I ran the FF tally in the last GE for one of the constituencies (I dont vote FF). Ourselves, labour and FG had staff to run the count along with one other party but I can't remember who. I supplied all the independents with our figures. SF sat at the end of the table running their own tally count. It was strange because they had to have staff at every box. We didn't as we shared tally people.

    But thats only one count centre - they cooperate almost everywhere else.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #539
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,816 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Eric Cartman wrote: »
    The taxation , law and order, entrepreneurial policies are all pretty solid there. Other parties could do with adopting some of the lessons. The abortion thing and uninspiring candidates sank them . Did they even field any candidates this time round ?
    Their candidates went quite far right anti muslim, anti lgbt, anti immigration

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #540
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,797 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    But thats only one count centre - they cooperate almost everywhere else.

    Unless their count centre is also my local one, there's two at least.


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    #541
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    As an update on Sharon Keogan, who has been mentioned on this thread before. She's the independent who was elected in 2 different electoral areas in Meath and was insistent that she'd be doing both jobs. It seems she's barred from holding both seats at once, and has said she won't challenge the rules in court "on cost grounds".

    She staying in the Laytown seat she defended, and the Ashbourne seat is to be immediately co-opted, with Keogan wanting to be able to choose the new councilor herself, saying she won the seat and is entitled to do as she pleases with it. It's a bit up in the air though as the entire council have to vote on who gets the seat, and there's talk of a FG/FF carve up, where a failed FF candidate from this election will get the seat in return for FG getting more shakes at the Cathaoirleach position over the next 5 years.


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