Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Some Yoke · 21-11-2020 9:24pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Porter isnt going back as a loosehead. Why would he?
Furlong mightnt be back for while yet. Leavy needs a fair few more games considering he was out as long as he was.

Our two best mobile abrasive and scrummaging props on the field versus an ageing healy/ed byrne etc. Cant see why it wouldnt be a valid option to try out in order to take on the best teams with our best players, at least one no to dismiss so quickly

The Lost Sheep · 21-11-2020 9:26pm

Some Yoke wrote: »

Our two best mobile abrasive and scrummaging props on the field versus an ageing healy/ed byrne etc. Cant see why it wouldnt be a valid option to try out in order to take on the best teams with our best players, at least one no to dismiss so quickly

There has been far too much time invested in him switching and while Healy is 33. Ed Byrne/Dooley are fine at loosehead never mind any of the academy guys coming through who could step up.
It isnt that simple to just switch back to play loose from tight.

kingofthekong · 21-11-2020 9:29pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Look at ESPN for metres etc. Wont list dominant tackle stats. Not many sites do.

bilston wrote: »

ESPN normally do them...in saying that I haven't been able to find them for the Autmns Nations Cup

Cheers

TRC10 · 21-11-2020 9:54pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There has been far too much time invested in him switching and while Healy is 33. Ed Byrne/Dooley are fine at loosehead never mind any of the academy guys coming through who could step up.
It isnt that simple to just switch back to play loose from tight.

I don't think anybody is saying it's simple, but he can 100% do it. He went from LH to TH which is supposedly more difficult so he should be able to switch back. And he dominated the Welsh scrum at LH in a WC warm up last August. We have some cracking young tightheads (Salanoa, Knox, aungier, o'toole) but theres a series lack of quality on the other side. It would definitely be in our best interests to get our 2 world class props on the field. The only hiccup I can think of is the Lions tour. At the moment hes nailed on to go as one of the 3 tightheads, so he may not be so keen to switch positions at such a critical stage for his selection hopes.

The Lost Sheep · 21-11-2020 9:56pm

TRC10 wrote: »

I don't think anybody is saying it's simple, but he can 100% do it. He went from LH to TH which is supposedly more difficult so he should be able to switch back. And he dominated the Welsh scrum at LH in a WC warm up last August. We have some cracking young tightheads (Salanoa, Knox, aungier, o'toole) but theres a series lack of quality on the other side. It would definitely be in our best interests to get our 2 world class props on the field.

Switching back isnt the answer to loosehead and he isnt world class. Good player but not a world class player.

TRC10 · 21-11-2020 9:58pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Switching back isnt the answer to loosehead and he isnt world class. Good player but not a world class player.

How is it not the answer to loose head? Who do we have to replace Healy?

The Lost Sheep · 21-11-2020 10:03pm

TRC10 wrote: »

How is it not the answer to loose head? Who do we have to replace Healy?

Because he isnt going to switch back when he's spent all that time changing over. He wont be playing there for Leinster who will want him on the tight and will prefer to give Dooley, Milne, Ed Byrne time at loosehead.
Especially with Furlong out for now he will be involved with Ireland at tight head and not necessarily at loosehead.

TRC10 · 21-11-2020 10:05pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Because he isnt going to switch back when he's spent all that time changing over. He wont be playing there for Leinster who will want him on the tight and will prefer to give Dooley, Milne, Ed Byrne time at loosehead.
Especially with Furlong out for now he will be involved with Ireland at tight head and not necessarily at loosehead.

He might if he wants to be first choice for ireland. Pete Dooley and ed byrne are hardly going to be international quality props.

The Lost Sheep · 21-11-2020 10:08pm

TRC10 wrote: »

He might if he wants to be first choice for ireland. Pete Dooley and ed byrne are hardly going to be international quality props.

They may they may not but there's others in other provinces who can step up to international level and for Leinster not everyone needs to be international standard

TRC10 · 21-11-2020 10:10pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

They may they may not but there's others in other provinces who can step up to international level and for Leinster not everyone needs to be international standard

I'm talking about ireland not leinster. I think its fair that you have to be international standard to play for Ireland. And if he wants to be starting for Ireland he may need to make the switch if thats what Farrell and co wants. But that remains to be seen I guess.

theVersatile · 21-11-2020 11:10pm

Porter to LH my days... Sheep is right they don't spend all the time converting him just to lob him back at LH again, bar a Beahlam style emergency. Porters goal is to get past Furlong to be #1 TH.

Also POM was Irelands best forward (Doris close second) and anybody who thinks otherwise (bar switching 1st and 2nd) is a troll or severely one eyed.

To contribute to the LH conversation, Killer has to come back. EOS would have a hernia if Porter was switched.

And guys, come on, saying Kellehers throwing isn't up to test standard isn't writing him off. It's pointing out is work ons. What ever happened to the old mentality of hookers being bad if their basics were bad? You'd swear he was Asafo Aumua the way some people to on about him, I feel his work in play has been really overrated. Bar his double tackle today with Ryan (I think?) he doesn't make any big contributions, unlike Herring who had a jackal about him atleast (not to mention better darts, the steal at the end of today's game doesn't mean otherwise).

Very frustrating reading in this thread from some people

theVersatile · 21-11-2020 11:26pm

kingofthekong wrote: »

1. Healy
2. Kelleher
3. Furlong
4. Ryan
5. Henderson
6.Baird
7. Leavy
8. Doris

^^ I want to start see this pack , its the only one in the near future i see beating England

1. Killer
2. O'Byrne
3. Ryan
4. Beirne
5. Ryan
6. POM
7. Leavy
8. CJ

^^ I want to start see this pack , its the only one in the near future i see beating England

ElisaAtWar · 21-11-2020 11:28pm

Healy is so slow to the breakdown. He needs to be replaced. Ross was always going to do what he did. And Keenan is just not physically able at this level

Solutionking · 21-11-2020 11:30pm

theVersatile wrote: »

1. Killer
2. O'Byrne
3. Ryan
4. Beirne
5. Ryan
6. POM
7. Leavy
8. CJ

^^ I want to start see this pack , its the only one in the near future i see beating England

POM has played against England in all the last games and every one of them has been shown up. Yet you want to start him again? why? is the plan to just keep losing. Our backrow combination should have had Conners at 7. POM was put on for lineout which was a disaster.

Beirne is also too light, he would have been eaten alive today. Hendo with Ryan we have to hope becomes the second row

VayNiice · 21-11-2020 11:33pm

theVersatile wrote: »

1. Killer
2. O'Byrne
3. Ryan
4. Beirne
5. Ryan
6. POM
7. Leavy
8. CJ

^^ I want to start see this pack , its the only one in the near future i see beating England

Ryan wasn't good enough to get a single minute off the bench when Porter was blowing out his arse at the end of the match. How exactly would he be the TH to lead Ireland to a win?

How many times recently have the munster pack dominated against top Champions Cup teams?

Burkie1203 · 21-11-2020 11:38pm

VayNiice wrote: »

Ryan wasn't good enough to get a single minute off the bench when Porter was blowing out his arse at the end of the match. How exactly would he be the TH to lead Ireland to a win?

How many times recently have the munster pack dominated against top Champions Cup teams?

Ryan picked up a strain In warm up

Garda Kenny · 21-11-2020 11:42pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Ryan picked up a strain In warm up

Thought that was Ed Byrne?

VayNiice · 22-11-2020 12:14am

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Ryan picked up a strain In warm up

That was Ed Byrne. Ryan wasn't in the 23 before that.

kingofthekong · 22-11-2020 12:24am

theVersatile wrote: »

1. Killer
2. O'Byrne
3. Ryan
4. Beirne
5. Ryan
6. POM
7. Leavy
8. CJ

^^ I want to start see this pack , its the only one in the near future i see beating England

Never happening, if Munster smash Leinster in the next interprovincial match then you have a point, till that happens ...nope. Also assume you saw Ryan get munched multiple times by an Ospreys scrum last weekend. And if that should be the pack why haven’t Munster been beating Leinster regularly with those players ?

Clegg · 22-11-2020 12:37am

Pick the guts of the third best pack in Ireland. That'll definitely show England.

Our pack wasn't even the problem today. There was.no lack of effort or commitment there. They made ground and forced England to make mistakes.

guapos · 22-11-2020 12:41am

VayNiice wrote: »

That was Ed Byrne. Ryan wasn't in the 23 before that.

It was reported that Ryan picked up a strain in the warm up and thats why porter played full 80

kingofthekong · 22-11-2020 12:47am

Clegg wrote: »

Pick the guts of the third best pack in Ireland. That'll definitely show England.

Our pack wasn't even the problem today. There was.no lack of effort or commitment there. They made ground and forced England to make mistakes.

Do you think the pack got parity today? , what do you think was the biggest area we struggled in ?

UAEguy2020 · 22-11-2020 12:48am

Our problem today is once again it appears we havent analyzed England as we fall right into their trap with both feet every single time, it was clear with Stockdale’s try where the weakness was and we instead kept running at prick walls. When you are as physical off the line as England are the price you pay is have a very exposed backfield and we took no advantage whatsoever.

Our pack wasn’t really an issue today, conceded afew pens at scrum time but that’s not uncommon for anyone against England.

I do take encouragement from once again our defense standing up to England even turning over two lineout mauls, England having to score a wonder try and off a free play 50/50 to score.

Again it has to be stressed that this is an Irish team in transition against probably the most settled side in the 6N who is hard enough to beat even when we are fully settled never mind in transition and one of the encouraging signs is this is an Irish team with a real backbone that keeps going even when it looks as if we are out of it which going forward will be a huge foundation for any success we might achieve once our attacking play fully evolves,

Bazzo · 22-11-2020 12:52am

guapos wrote: »

It was reported that Ryan picked up a strain in the warm up and thats why porter played full 80

Where?

Edit: Cian Tracey did report it

https://twitter.com/CianTracey1/status/1330228718044925954?s=09

TRC10 · 22-11-2020 12:57am

One interesting thing about today is in the first 5-10 minutes we played very smart and looked to be on top. JGP and Byrne played a smart kicking game which forced errors and put England under pressure. But after May's first try we reverted to doing the same thing we did in 2019 twice and in February, running into brick wall time and time again. Our defense I thought was actually quite good. They got nothing from their mail and their tries were from a cross kick and a breakaway. But when England go through 5 or so phases and are going nowhere, they either kick for space or put up a contest able kick. But when we're getting man handled time and time again we continued to run into the brick wall. I'm a farrell fan but you have to wonder what the game plan was.

UAEguy2020 · 22-11-2020 1:03am

TRC10 wrote: »

One interesting thing about today is in the first 5-10 minutes we played very smart and looked to be on top. JGP and Byrne played a smart kicking game which forced errors and put England under pressure. But after May's first try we reverted to doing the same thing we did in 2019 twice and in February, running into brick wall time and time again. Our defense I thought was actually quite good. They got nothing from their mail and their tries were from a cross kick and a breakaway. But when England go through 5 or so phases and are going nowhere, they either kick for space or put up a contest able kick. But when we're getting man handled time and time again we continued to run into the brick wall. I'm a farrell fan but you have to wonder what the game plan was.

That’s exactly my observation from the game, it is clear how you get around the English defense and we were playing the game just right in that first half and then like you said reverted back to the formula of running into brick walls repeatedly.

bilston · 22-11-2020 1:35am

Well the pack was a bit of an issue today when you consider the lineout malfunctioned quite badly.

The other issue was the fact that our backs pass the ball standing still, they need to run onto the ball, but again that may be a result of us not winning the collisions, which again can be partially put down to the pack coming off second best.

That said we did seem to get going more in the second half. I dont know if that was down to personnel change, a change in attitude, or England beginning to tire, but actually we controlled both territory and possession in the second half. England ended up resorting to conceding penalties with impunity, but when you're 18 zip up you can afford to do that, even if Gauzere had had the balls to bin an England player they were still likely to be to far ahead for us to catch them.

The other thing to consider after today is that with the exception of Manu Tuilagi and Anthony Watson, I think I'm right in saying that was England at full strength. We were missing Furlong, Ringrose, Sexton and Leavy. Henderson and Murray would more than likely start a 6Ns match against them as well. So I wouldn't be too disheartened.

As for Andy Farrell, I think its mad that people are concluding he isn't up to the job on the back of a defeat against England at Twickenham. We'll know more about Farrell after the dust has settled on the 2021 Six Nations...for now we are still a work in progress and the man needs time to put his stamp on the squad. I will say this though, life will much more comfortable for him in the lead up to the 6Ns if we win the Scotland/France game in two weeks time.

theVersatile · 22-11-2020 11:24am

With regards to the tongue in cheek comment I made of my ideal Irish Pack, I actually believe that a pack like that (obviously replace Ryan with Porter that was pulling the piss - even though Ryan is a strong scrummager) could bring it to England. Why? BREAKDOWN THREAT. England minced us so many times with turnovers - we need to bring something similar. Get my pack, replace Ryan with Porter and maybe KOB with Herring and you have a team with five or six poaching threats.

Also, Hendo didn't exactly make blistering ground when he came on today. I wouldn't classify Beirne as being too weak/light. Can't be too much worse than Hendo was today (or someone equally light like Dillane).

Once again I'd like to point out that POM was Ireland's MOTM yet is still subject to controversy somehow.

bilston · 22-11-2020 11:36am

theVersatile wrote: »

With regards to the tongue in cheek comment I made of my ideal Irish Pack, I actually believe that a pack like that (obviously replace Ryan with Porter that was pulling the piss - even though Ryan is a strong scrummager) could bring it to England. Why? BREAKDOWN THREAT. England minced us so many times with turnovers - we need to bring something similar. Get my pack, replace Ryan with Porter and maybe KOB with Herring and you have a team with five or six poaching threats.

Also, Hendo didn't exactly make blistering ground when he came on today. I wouldn't classify Beirne as being too weak/light. Can't be too much worse than Hendo was today (or someone equally light like Dillane).

Once again I'd like to point out that POM was Ireland's MOTM yet is still subject to controversy somehow.

I think you're wrong about Henderson yeaterday...he wasn't on the pitch that long but still made one or two effective gainline carries.

People tried to convince us that Beirne was better than Henderson a couple of years ago when he joined Munster and it was shown that at test level he just wasn't. No reason to think it is any different now.

OneLungDavy · 22-11-2020 11:56am

bilston wrote: »

Well the pack was a bit of an issue today when you consider the lineout malfunctioned quite badly.

The other issue was the fact that our backs pass the ball standing still, they need to run onto the ball, but again that may be a result of us not winning the collisions, which again can be partially put down to the pack coming off second best.

That said we did seem to get going more in the second half. I dont know if that was down to personnel change, a change in attitude, or England beginning to tire, but actually we controlled both territory and possession in the second half. England ended up resorting to conceding penalties with impunity, but when you're 18 zip up you can afford to do that, even if Gauzere had had the balls to bin an England player they were still likely to be to far ahead for us to catch them.

The other thing to consider after today is that with the exception of Manu Tuilagi and Anthony Watson, I think I'm right in saying that was England at full strength. We were missing Furlong, Ringrose, Sexton and Leavy. Henderson and Murray would more than likely start a 6Ns match against them as well. So I wouldn't be too disheartened.

As for Andy Farrell, I think its mad that people are concluding he isn't up to the job on the back of a defeat against England at Twickenham. We'll know more about Farrell after the dust has settled on the 2021 Six Nations...for now we are still a work in progress and the man needs time to put his stamp on the squad. I will say this though, life will much more comfortable for him in the lead up to the 6Ns if we win the Scotland/France game in two weeks time.

If you're putting in Leavy you can add Carbery too. We started our 3rd choice 10 in Byrne, Burns was our 5th choice 10 coming into the tournament, he's done well and has potentially unsurped Byrne.

I couldn't get over our tactics in that first half. Our attacking shape was there at times but we kept using one-out runners. Did our forwards pass the ball once in the first half?

VayNiice · 23-11-2020 12:49am

Are we any closer to figuring out what our first choice back row is? Would it be worth moving Leavy to 6 for the 6N if he's playing well and leave Connors at 7?

Does Ruddock deserve more of a chance as he had always done well for Ireland or has his ship sailed? Conan is another one who warrants another crack.

Could we look down the route of playing a bigger man at 6 like Coombes or Baird in the future?

AbusesToilets · 23-11-2020 1:02am

VayNiice wrote: »

Are we any closer to figuring out what our first choice back row is? Would it be worth moving Leavy to 6 for the 6N if he's playing well and leave Connors at 7?

Does Ruddock deserve more of a chance as he had always done well for Ireland or has his ship sailed? Conan is another one who warrants another crack.

Could we look down the route of playing a bigger man at 6 like Coombes or Baird in the future?

Ruddock does deserve more attention, but he'll never get it. Conan also deserves to not be discarded. If you're going to have Stander in the team, then use him in a fashion that makes use of his ability.

UAEguy2020 · 23-11-2020 11:32am

VayNiice wrote: »

Are we any closer to figuring out what our first choice back row is? Would it be worth moving Leavy to 6 for the 6N if he's playing well and leave Connors at 7?

Does Ruddock deserve more of a chance as he had always done well for Ireland or has his ship sailed? Conan is another one who warrants another crack.

Could we look down the route of playing a bigger man at 6 like Coombes or Baird in the future?

If everyone’s fit is personally pick
Stander/O’Mahony @ 6 Leavy @ 7 Doris @ 8

bilston · 23-11-2020 1:33pm

I assume we'd have heard if anyone elae was getting called up into the squad for the Georgia match...unless they are waiting until after the Munster match. I'd have thought there may be a need to call up a prop?

Georgia are no mugs...they haven't been humiliated in their two games (much better teams than Georgia have lost by 40 points or more at Twickenham), but clearly offer very little going forward.

I'd like to see Dave Heffernen and Billy Burns both get starts.

Also if Stuart McCloskey doesn't start this game then he might as well be put out of his international misery. A McCloskey/Chris Farrell midfield would be pretty physical.

sydthebeat · 23-11-2020 6:44pm

anyone else think that Simon Easterbys position is very much in question ??

hes been in his position as forwards coach for over 6 years now, and while he might point to a lot of established players who have gone in the last few years.. isnt his responsibility to devise a plan based on the players he has to hand, and their strengths and weaknesses?

It seems like we havent tried anything new in regard to forward play for the last 2 years, so its a case of new players fitting the established system, rather than changing the system to suit the players. Im specifically referring to lineout work on both sides of the ball, maul work on both sides and general open play in tight.... have we seen any evidence that ireland can play a tight game around the fringes to make any significant gainline advances?

one way to counter a powerful blitz defense is to have a wind up pick and go system and to constantly attack the fringes with patterns of carries.
I didnt see any of that against england or france. We ended up having to throw bodies into rucks to counter one or two bollixes and end up leaving us with 10 players up against 13 defenders on their feet. Thus Byrne has to stand deeper to get any width at all on his passes, and we end up with farrell being hit usually behind the gain line. No pic and jam game really at all.

theVersatile · 23-11-2020 6:49pm

I thought Fogarty was the new forwards coach?

Richie_Rich89 · 23-11-2020 6:50pm

Ya, hasn't Easterby switched to being defence coach?

The Lost Sheep · 23-11-2020 6:57pm

theVersatile wrote: »

I thought Fogarty was the new forwards coach?

No. Has he ever been forwards? Elite dev officer then scrum coach with 20s, Leinster.

sydthebeat · 23-11-2020 7:02pm

theVersatile wrote: »

I thought Fogarty was the new forwards coach?

scrum coach i though

sydthebeat · 23-11-2020 7:03pm

https://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/men/management/

Richie_Rich89 · 23-11-2020 7:08pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

https://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/men/management/

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-easterby-defence-farrell-4892860-Nov2019/

sydthebeat · 23-11-2020 7:09pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

https://www.the42.ie/ireland-easterby-defence-farrell-4892860-Nov2019/

https://extra.ie/2020/11/23/sport/rugby/ireland-england-main-things

according to this from today, easterby still runs the line out and fogarty the scrum.

have we no defined forwards coach?

sydthebeat · 23-11-2020 7:13pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/ireland-s-loss-set-up-by-shambolic-lineout-and-england-s-supreme-backrow-1.4415950

according to thornley hes not sure who runs the lineout.....

why is it such a puzzle i wonder?

sydthebeat · 23-11-2020 7:15pm

anyway, apologies to simon if forward work is no longer under his remit... but i guess my point still stands, if not enhanced.
Our general forward play has been pretty poor for the last 2 years

salmocab · 23-11-2020 8:56pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

anyway, apologies to simon if forward work is no longer under his remit... but i guess my point still stands, if not enhanced.
Our general forward play has been pretty poor for the last 2 years

Well if he’s the lineout coach and not the forwards then he probably still should be worried about his job.

23-11-2020 11:52pm

So what about the game against Scotland on December 5th

Sexton will be back and picked I assume as Farrell will want to try to ensure a win?

Scots will fancy their chances.

Clegg · 24-11-2020 10:31am

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1331166149829124096?s=09

ionadnapokot · 24-11-2020 10:45am

No more call ups?
Weird

thomond2006 · 24-11-2020 10:48am

That's it?!

With the fourth game (Scotland) to come along with Europe, I'm stunned there hasn't been more additions. It's probably tricky to call up Munster players given they only played and flew back last night but still...

El_Duderino 09 · 24-11-2020 10:52am

ionadnapokot wrote: »

No more call ups?
Weird

I don’t know why anyone thought there would be a raft of call-ups. They tend to call players up for training camps well in advance of ever playing them. They might have called up Harry Byrne as he’s been in camp before but the notion that Craig Casey or Scott Penny would be called up and played, all within 5 days, was a really long shot.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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