Gatwick closed (mod note post 1)

robinph · 20-12-2018 2:38pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

can they not get their own and follow the drone? I wonder what the punishment will be if they are caught, unlike this total banana republic, they dont mess around over there...

5 years for flying a drone near and airport.

But that was this morning, by now I would expect them to have dreamt up a bunch of additional charges or they would do something like charge them separately for each time the drone took off to ramp up the sentence to multiples of that.

Irish Steve · 20-12-2018 2:54pm

seamus wrote: »

Anti-drone drones are really the only feasible option. Any ground defence would be insanely expensive to develop at that accuracy.

Another part of the problem is that drones are cheap in the grand scheme of things. An individual does not have the funds to develop an actual aircraft of their own. But with 20 grand and a bit of technical knowledge, the array of things you could do with a quadcopter is huge.

Indeed. The scary aspect is that you can cut your 20 grand to closer to 2 grand, that will get you the necessary components and electronics that will build into a drone that's capable of being a nuisance. There's not a lot of complex tech savvy needed any more either, pretty much all of the software needed to get the thing in the air is out there as shareware or freeware, and it's very capable in terms of what it can do.

This event will have come as a very unwelcome wake up call to a number of groups of people,. and the response will be significant, but I doubt we will hear too much about it for quite some time, as they won't want to admit to exactly what their capability is going forward, but I think we can be pretty confident that some very high level discussions will be happening over the next while.

Working class heroes · 20-12-2018 2:58pm

It’s black ops!
When all this is sorted it will be used to demonstrate what the airports will be like as a result of a hard Brexit.
It’ll focus the minds in relation to the Brexit vote in the HoC this coming January.

Maybe I’ve had too much coffee today.

trellheim · 20-12-2018 3:02pm

Its frustrating ... but you just cannot take the chance. When they find the perp they will be made an example of I would say with some severely stiff penalties ... like the costs of the disruption.

Idbatterim · 20-12-2018 3:04pm

I wouldn't be too quick to paint us as a banana republic compared to our 'betters' across the water. It's 1.30pm now and still not sorted.

in terms of the response to it, I dont think we can comment much, I'm sure they know what they are doing there, this seems a bit unprecedented and I am sure they will be ready and far better prepared if it happens again. What I am mainly referring to, is the sentence that will be given out if they are apprehended, a few people dressed up over there for halloween and were prosecuted for hate crimes. Over here the guardai would laugh at you if you rang up to report people in "fancy dress"

AGC · 20-12-2018 3:04pm

trellheim wrote: »

Its frustrating ... but you just cannot take the chance. When they find the perp they will be made an example of I would say with some severely stiff penalties ... like the costs of the disruption.

Unless it's Richard Branson doing it I don't think they will be covering costs

Tenzor07 · 20-12-2018 3:08pm

Dreamliner parked up at the Ryanair pier

seamus · 20-12-2018 3:09pm

trellheim wrote: »

Its frustrating ... but you just cannot take the chance. When they find the perp they will be made an example of I would say with some severely stiff penalties ... like the costs of the disruption.

We don't do that in Europe, mainly because it's pointless. Order an individual to repay €100m in lost flight costs and he can immediately declare bankruptcy and walk away from the debt a few years later without having paid anything. It's barely even a punishment.

This is one of those incidents that will be used to tighten up laws and introduce real penalties for interfering with aviation traffic. Up to now you might be able to run/drive onto a runway and delay a flight by an hour. So the penalty was relatively small.
Now someone has managed to shut down a major airport for a day, which is a whole other ball game.

Idbatterim · 20-12-2018 3:12pm

Now someone has managed to shut down a major airport for a day, which is a whole other ball game.

they have managed to shut down the second busiest airport in the uk!

robinph · 20-12-2018 3:13pm

Won't make a whole lot of difference to the overall number of passengers, but the train companies seem to be allowing people to travel using their plane ticket for long distance trains. Only going to help the few flights to Edinburgh and a couple of other places really as there are not a lot of UK internal routes. But if the airlines don't run internal flights for a couple of days then it would free up some planes and landing slots to clear the backlog of passengers over the next few days to more far flung places.

If you were due to fly to Scotland/ Manchester/ Cardiff then surely you'd have already got on the train anyway by now though.

robinph · 20-12-2018 3:15pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

they have managed to shut down the second busiest airport in the uk!

They were claiming it as the busiest single runway airport in the world this morning, which sounds plausible.

AGC · 20-12-2018 3:16pm

robinph wrote: »

They were claiming it as the busiest single runway airport in the world this morning, which sounds plausible.

Second behind Mumbai I think

4068ac1elhodqr · 20-12-2018 3:28pm

In this age of space travel and hypersonic missiles, how hard can it be to detect the localised source of the RF signal of the drone enthusiasts?

Likely a couple of school kids who got a fancy semi-pro drone for chrissymass.

basill · 20-12-2018 3:33pm

Marjorie Sparse Sternum wrote: »

In this age of space travel and hypersonic missiles, how hard can it be to detect the localised source of the RF signal of the drone enthusiasts?

Likely a couple of school kids who got a fancy semi-pro drone for chrissymass.

Read the earlier posts. Likely a commercial drone that is programmed and flying solo. No need to be in contact with an operator once its airborne. Now following it back to where it gets recharged is probably where the solution lies if they can maintain eyes on them.

AGC · 20-12-2018 3:38pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

Two more Ryanair DUB-LGW flights have flown to STN instead. FR112 and FR114. Lucky folk.

I know Ryanair have a massive hub there but following some tweets others airlines that have diverted to Stansted things are not going well. Stuck on the aircraft for over 4 hours with pax starting to get abusive and police being called.

robinph · 20-12-2018 3:41pm

basill wrote: »

Read the earlier posts. Likely a commercial drone that is programmed and flying solo. No need to be in contact with an operator once its airborne. Now following it back to where it gets recharged is probably where the solution lies if they can maintain eyes on them.

Think it was on the Sky News feed that they just had a comment from some drone "expert" saying it probably wasn't a particularly high tech model or they would be able to track it better and she reckoned it would be cheapo toy models.

Think she probably doesn't understand that the software could be hacked to remove any geofencing.

Edit: Was actually on the BBC News feed:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-sussex-46564814?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5c1ba400ae4345065e478def%26Gatwick%20drone%20%27likely%20to%20be%20a%20toy%27%262018-12-20T14%3A17%3A08.808Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:300c0636-9b0a-4656-89ee-05a5f3d5ad5f&pinned_post_asset_id=5c1ba400ae4345065e478def&pinned_post_type=share

zell12 · 20-12-2018 3:58pm

An airline source has told the BBC that flights are currently cancelled until at least 19:00
A total of 722 flights were scheduled to and from Gatwick today across all airlines.

Mebuntu · 20-12-2018 3:59pm

Just been checking Ryanair's Gatwick - Dublin flights today. Funnily enough, they are showing as cancelled on their website but all bar one so far appear on Flightradar as having operated (or are currently operating) from Stansted. Example FR115 over MAN at 14.55.

seamus · 20-12-2018 4:03pm

basill wrote: »

Now following it back to where it gets recharged is probably where the solution lies if they can maintain eyes on them.

If it's going back. With a reasonable amount of forward thinking, you could decide that programming the drone to just fall out of the sky when it's done might cost you €250 each time but it's a damn sight better than going to prison

The suggestion earlier was that a couple of people were doing this, but there's just as many reasons to believe it's a single individual with 10 or 20 drones ready to fly.

Drive around the vicinity of the airport, drop drones off within a 1km radius of the airport, programmed to take off at a specific time and fly to a specific GPS co-ordinate (i.e. the airport) fly around in random patterns for a while and when you have about 2% battery left, take off in some random direction and keep flying until you drop out of the air.

If someone came to me and asked me the best way to achieve this level of chaos, that's what I'd advise.

Edit: I would like to note at this juncture for the Gardai in attendence that I have not been in the UK for a couple of years and have never actually seen a drone in the flesh, never mind write code for one

joe40 · 20-12-2018 4:07pm

The americans would have launched jets and shot it down by now.
Seriously though this level of disruption achieved in a relatively simple way won't go unnoticed.

nim1bdeh38l2cw · 20-12-2018 4:11pm

joe40 wrote: »

The americans would have launched jets and shot it down by now.
Seriously though this level of disruption achieved in a relatively simple way won't go unnoticed.

There's not just one drone hovering constantly over the airport since 9pm last night.......

Oafley Jones · 20-12-2018 4:17pm

joe40 wrote: »

The americans would have launched jets and shot it down by now.
Seriously though this level of disruption achieved in a relatively simple way won't go unnoticed.

What the Americans are actually doing...

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2017/11/14/16634572/dji-aeroscope-drone-detection-interception-tech-next-level-lauren-goode

robinph · 20-12-2018 4:57pm

I guess it's still not ending anytime soon, the military have been called in:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-sussex-46564814?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5c1bb9bd3a2f470665a2430b%26Gatwick%20disruption%3A%20Army%20in%20discussion%20with%20police%262018-12-20T15%3A49%3A29.222Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:d1b0937f-9142-42ec-9343-e331046f1106&pinned_post_asset_id=5c1bb9bd3a2f470665a2430b&pinned_post_type=share

Could be just for extra manpower to search the area, could be to have some people in cammo gear holding big guns standing around to scare people into the open. As far as shooting stuff out of the sky though I don't see that they can do anything much that the Police can't do themselves, bigger guns are not going to help anyway if they don't know what they are shooting at.

4068ac1elhodqr · 20-12-2018 5:05pm

Paulina Fit Slime wrote: »

There's not just one drone hovering constantly over the airport since 9pm last night.......

Maybe two, but hardly a swarm.

They said they didn't want to take it/them down incase of any projectile presenting a risk to the public (assuming on descent)

Surely there's acres of open fields around the port, meaning they could even send up a bow and arrow and not worry too much about it coming back down and landing on anyone.

Instead allow of the disruption of 30-100k folks.

Still good practice for the brexit perhaps with flights delayed or cancelled.

Mebuntu · 20-12-2018 5:17pm

For all we know there may be something attached to the drones that the police are not saying anything about.

...FR9852 from Cork to Gatwick is now descending into Stansted. Fair play to Ryanair for keeping things going all day.

plodder · 20-12-2018 5:25pm

There must be a worry that there is a major level of organisation and game changing tactics. Like what if dozens of drones have been planted in various locations and they are going to just keep launching them one at a time, at 3-4 hour intervals. They could be anywhere, like on the roofs of buildings in a several mile radius. Though Heathrow would be a better place for that kind of attack given how much more built up the surrounding area is.

robinph · 20-12-2018 5:32pm

The length of time this has been going on, and that we know drones don't stay in the air forever, there has to be some details missing from the reporting. Have they been crashing, is it the same drone being relaunched, is it one end of the airport rather than the other. Little things like that I'd expect to have been appearing on the twittersphere by now.

If they were taking off/ landing outside of the airport perimeter then someone must have seen something by now.

jasper100 · 20-12-2018 5:34pm

So what sort of damage would a tiny drone do to a plane? Even if it hit an engine and managed to shut it down there is still a spare engine. If it hits anywhere else it would just bounce off and get destroyed presumably?

Van.Bosch · 20-12-2018 5:38pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

Just been checking Ryanair's Gatwick - Dublin flights today. Funnily enough, they are showing as cancelled on their website but all bar one so far appear on Flightradar as having operated (or are currently operating) from Stansted. Example FR115 over MAN at 14.55.

Maybe they are flying back empty as the pax would be in LGW?

Inquitus · 20-12-2018 5:39pm

jasper100 wrote: »

So what sort of damage would a tiny drone do to a plane? Even if it hit an engine and managed to shut it down there is still a spare engine. If it hits anywhere else it would just bounce off and get destroyed presumably?

I saw an article somewhere today about this, one of the concerns was the batteries could lodge themselves in the planes fusilage on impact and then they would combust. A drone could also smash the pilot's windshield. These are unlikely outcomes I would imagine, I assume it would also make shíte of an engine too, as you mention.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-46632892

In October 2017, a drone collided with a commercial aircraft in Canada, striking one of the plane's wings. The plane sustained minor damage but was able to land safely.

Experts agree that a drone could damage an aircraft
Research on drone damage to aircraft is still limited but a number of institutions have tested a variety of impact scenarios and each seems to reach a different conclusion.

Tests conducted at the University of Dayton in the US mimicked a midair collision between a 2.1lb (1kg) quadcopter and a commercial aircraft travelling at 238mph (383km/h) and appeared to show it inflicting major damage.

Other research from the Alliance for System Safety of Unmanned aircraft system through research Excellence (Assure) in conjunction with the US's Federal Aviation Authority suggested drones could inflict more damage than a bird collision and the lithium ion batteries that power them may not shatter upon impact, instead becoming lodged in airframes and posing a potential risk of fire.

Ravi Vaidyanathan, a robotics lecturer at Imperial College, London, told the BBC: "The threat posed to larger aircraft by drones is small but not negligible.

"The probability of a collision is small but a drone could be drawn into a turbine.

"A drone greater than 2kg might break the cockpit windshield as well for certain aircraft."

Alun · 20-12-2018 5:40pm

jasper100 wrote: »

So what sort of damage would a tiny drone do to a plane? Even if it hit an engine and managed to shut it down there is still a spare engine. If it hits anywhere else it would just bounce off and get destroyed presumably?

Not really ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH0V7kp-xg0

Jeff2 · 20-12-2018 5:50pm

jasper100 wrote: »

So what sort of damage would a tiny drone do to a plane? Even if it hit an engine and managed to shut it down there is still a spare engine. If it hits anywhere else it would just bounce off and get destroyed presumably?

Posted in other thread

GBX wrote: »

Aeromexico Boeing 737-800 sustained serious damage as it allegedly collided with a drone on approach to Tijuana International Airport, Mexico according to local media

The flight #AM770 from Guadalajara completed the descent without complications, according to Diario de Colima, which noted that passengers disembarked from the plane normally.

.

EdgeCase · 20-12-2018 5:57pm

The French have various anti drone drones for just this kind of thing, including one that just catches the rogue drone in a net.

I'm really surprised they're not able to deal with this a lot more rapidly.

bilston · 20-12-2018 6:01pm

The longer it goes on the more you have to think there is a lot more to this story than we are being told.

antodeco · 20-12-2018 6:02pm

There has to be something missing from.the reporting. Its weird how drones can shut down the airport for over 18 hours at this stage. They need to be recharged, or there needs to be several of these for it to be going in for so long. As someone said, at this stage I would've assumed they'd have been able to trace the origin of the signal or even kill the drones. It's just all very odd.

robinph · 20-12-2018 6:02pm

'Substantial drones' used at Gatwick, says transport secretary

Unclear if that means a couple of big drones, or lots of little drones.

Inquitus · 20-12-2018 6:08pm

antodeco wrote: »

There has to be something missing from.the reporting. Its weird how drones can shut down the airport for over 18 hours at this stage. They need to be recharged, or there needs to be several of these for it to be going in for so long. As someone said, at this stage I would've assumed they'd have been able to trace the origin of the signal or even kill the drones. It's just all very odd.

Every time they go to restart operations the drone re-appears apparently, they are being expertly trolled by whomever it is.

Reati · 20-12-2018 6:20pm

Alun wrote: »

Not really ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH0V7kp-xg0

That video has been discredited by several groups.

Anyway, Drone pilot myself. Feel free to shout if you have questions on the topic.

In a nutshell, as a few have said, this has to be a planned attack. The drones are much bigger than your off the shelf drones. It would be flyable with one person but would be better with two. It has lights added to it to make sure it was seen. It has been custom built or modded to avoid GEO (the system using GPS to stop people being able to do this at aircraft) assuming it's using DJI parts. At my guess, it would have 15mins in the air.

I am struggling though how no one has seen it return to landing point and reported that. They are not very subtle. Like I can't take my gear out in a field in the middle of the Kerry mountains without someone asking "what's that?" What you doing?"

Another pilot was asking me could they not follow the drone home with a police drone but I bet they are running afowl of GEO which has a unlock period when done correctly!

Idbatterim · 20-12-2018 6:20pm

Some 10,000 passengers were affected last night, and a further 110,000 were due to either take off or land at the airport on 760 flights today.

https://www.thejournal.ie/gatwick-airport-flights-drones-4406657-Dec2018/

110,000 that is mental, dublin airport is expecting 94,000 on its busiest day of the year, tomorrow!

https://www.dublinairport.com/latest-news/detail/busiest-christmas-ever-at-dublin-airports

Hurrache · 20-12-2018 6:20pm

If this was a movie, because of the duration of the activity, no pictures in the time of social media, and the military getting involved, it can only be one thing, aliens.

Mr.Crinklewood · 20-12-2018 6:26pm

Hurrache wrote: »

If this was a movie, because of the duration of the activity, no pictures in the time of social media, and the military getting involved, it can only be one thing, aliens.

Thought the lack of photos or videos on mainstream and social media was strange...

MarkHenderson · 20-12-2018 6:26pm

Very bizarre. You'd worry about copycats in the coming days also.

EdgeCase · 20-12-2018 6:27pm

Hurrache wrote: »

If this was a movie, because of the duration of the activity, no pictures in the time of social media, and the military getting involved, it can only be one thing, aliens.

It would be one very boring movie!

Mebuntu · 20-12-2018 6:28pm

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Maybe they are flying back empty as the pax would be in LGW?

I had thought of that but, usually, positioning flight numbers have the letter "P" added. Maybe they are texting passengers to get to STN if possible but unlikely every one of them would make it.

Reati · 20-12-2018 6:29pm

Mr.Crinklewood wrote: »

Thought the lack of photos or videos on mainstream and social media was strange...

You wouldn't get much on a phone other than a blurry dot if you were in a good spot. There is a few videos of it last night flying around the runway with lights on top of it.

The press can't get close enough to it as they don't know where it will show up.

Hurrache · 20-12-2018 6:31pm

Is Gatwick not covered by plane spotters like Dublin is? You'd think they'd have spotted and caught something the first couple of times.

uck51js9zml2yt · 20-12-2018 6:35pm

EdgeCase wrote: »

It would be one very boring movie!

Once no one is droning on we're ok

Kermit.de.frog · 20-12-2018 6:44pm

Apparently it's a commercial size drone(s), not the cheaper plastic ones. Hardly makes much difference to the risk anyhow.

A cheap and cheerful way to bring massive disruption that's unlikely to go unnoticed elsewhere!

20-12-2018 6:44pm

lawred2 wrote: »

kinda concerning... what's to stop a worldwide concerted effort to shut airports down?

if all it takes is one man and his drone...

It's my belief that there will be a major terrorist attack(s) using drones in the near future. The technology has gotten so cheap, and the stuff they can do with programmed GPS routes, improved flight time, flying in convoy, over walls etc. I shudder to think of the possibilities.

Thankfully in this case it just seems to be somebody intent on causing disruption. Perhaps an ex-employee with a grudge.

recyclebin · 20-12-2018 6:44pm

I'm surprised it took so long for drones to be used to do something like this. I thought they would more likely be used to interfere with some of the world leaders travel plans or events.

Gatwick closed (mod note post 1)

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