Dublin Bus Changes to Improve City Center Journeys

lawred2 · 07-02-2018 12:40pm

StreetLight wrote: »

Laughable. That's exactly what you've got. How do you like it so far?

It's grand. And it'll get better. As soon as people get the idea that the city center is not a place for their single occupancy vehicles.

bk · 07-02-2018 1:00pm

bebeman wrote: »

All evidence so far suggests that the amateurs could not mess up any worse than the professionals.

StreetLight wrote: »

Laughable. That's exactly what you've got. How do you like it so far?

Not really. I've read most of the reports that have come out of the NTA and they clearly know what they were doing.

They knew this would be an issue and they had a very clear plan for it.

- Turn College Green into a square and thus eliminate the problem of taxis and buses crossing the Luas.
- Redirect Buses up Parliament Street
- Ban cars from the Quays.

Had all that been done, then we wouldn't be having problems know. Instead unfortunately as usual the politicians started meddling and listened to the car parks, hotels, etc. and watered down or completely blocked all of the above and now this mess is the result.

We have a problem with our politicians and planning system, not with our transport planners.

devnull · 07-02-2018 1:19pm

Everything I have seen about this suggests that it's very much a Dublin City Council and planning problem and something that involves politicians and other interest groups like the car park lobby, the high end hotels, the taxi lobby and a few other groups who are constantly trying to block anything that puts public transport first for their own reasons.

Unfortunately as of yet someone has not had the balls to stand up to these interest groups enough and instead of standing up to them they are trying to accommodate them to the point that they damage the far far higher numbers who use public transport in the city.

The problem is that for too long these groups have had their own way and it's no surprise that they don't want to lose their power that they have had over many years now.

dvdman1 · 07-02-2018 1:31pm

The luas should have been on stilts in the city centre, with modern architecture and glass it wouldn't be that bad..no worse than most road furniture.

dfx- · 07-02-2018 1:51pm

bk wrote: »

I've read most of the reports that have come out of the NTA and they clearly know what they were doing.

Now this would be a first.

bk wrote: »

They knew this would be an issue and they had a very clear plan for it.

- Turn College Green into a square and thus eliminate the problem of taxis and buses crossing the Luas.
- Redirect Buses up Parliament Street
- Ban cars from the Quays.

Had all that been done, then we wouldn't be having problems know. Instead unfortunately as usual the politicians started meddling and listened to the car parks, hotels, etc. and watered down or completely blocked all of the above and now this mess is the result.

We have a problem with our politicians and planning system, not with our transport planners.

So, no, they didn't know what they were doing. They just came up with the same sort of idea as moving buses to George's Quay. Is that the sum total of the plan?

The city's public transport runs through College Green, there is no better redirection alternative.

MJohnston · 07-02-2018 2:03pm

dfx- wrote: »

So, no, they didn't know what they were doing. They just came up with the same sort of idea as moving buses to George's Quay. Is that the sum total of the plan?

The city's public transport runs through College Green, there is no better redirection alternative.

So, what's your plan then?

Stephen15 · 07-02-2018 3:28pm

dfx- wrote: »

Now this would be a first.

So, no, they didn't know what they were doing. They just came up with the same sort of idea as moving buses to George's Quay. Is that the sum total of the plan?

The city's public transport runs through College Green, there is no better redirection alternative.

Only because of poor planning as some bright spark decided that all buses would run through College Green.

Why can't a bus travelling South to West from Leeson Street to The Quays go through the Liberties and around the congested area which is Nassau Street, College Green and Westmoreland Street. Would you drive through College Green if driving in the CC? No you'd go around it using other streets under utilised by buses why can't it be same for buses with bus priority measures.

Ernest · 08-02-2018 11:42am

dvdman1 wrote: »

The luas should have been on stilts in the city centre, with modern architecture and glass it wouldn't be that bad..no worse than most road furniture.

Correct. It was crazy to force large electric trains/trams through the city centre streets in a city like Dublin instead of putting them off-street through either underground or on stilts (elevated), as you say.

Remember too that the existing DART is an ELEVATED Railway in the City Centre all the way between Ballsbridge and Clontarf (Lansdowne Rd to Killester stations). that's why it can run so efficiently without disrupting traffic.

dfx- · 08-02-2018 11:58am

MJohnston wrote: »

So, what's your plan then?

The plan should start with getting the overwhelming majority through as quick a possible, the overwhelming majority is by bus. Not moving them around or *sigh* closing the main pinch point of the city area off into a square.

Whoever thought of that mad idea and whoever supported it to this point should be kept a long way away from any plan.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Only because of poor planning as some bright spark decided that all buses would run through College Green.

Why can't a bus travelling South to West from Leeson Street to The Quays go through the Liberties and around the congested area which is Nassau Street, College Green and Westmoreland Street. Would you drive through College Green if driving in the CC? No you'd go around it using other streets under utilised by buses why can't it be same for buses with bus priority measures.

A bus might go that long winded way of getting through. That is an alternative, is it better?

20-30 routes meandering around the Liberties and major routes with key pick up stops like the 66s, 39s and 67s is another thing entirely.

MJohnston · 08-02-2018 2:57pm

dfx- wrote: »

The plan should start with getting the overwhelming majority through as quick a possible, the overwhelming majority is by bus. Not moving them around or *sigh* closing the main pinch point of the city area off into a square.

Whoever thought of that mad idea and whoever supported it to this point should be kept a long way away from any plan.

With respect, that's just a restatement of the problem, not an actual plan for solving it.

cgcsb · 08-02-2018 4:03pm

An elevated luas would never in a million years get planning approval, primarily because of the urban environment it'd destroy beneath it, and really there is no need, it's must cheaper and hassle free to dish out some car bans, but for some reason we're not capable of that.

Kh1993 · 08-02-2018 6:28pm

Seen a 39a using Luke Street (behind Tara St) to to get to the Quays there not long ago. Tara St now almost completely blocked up at rush hour.

Stephen15 · 08-02-2018 6:34pm

dfx- wrote: »

A bus might go that long winded way of getting through. That is an alternative, is it better?

20-30 routes meandering around the Liberties and major routes with key pick up stops like the 66s, 39s and 67s is another thing entirely.

Meandering Around? But it would be quicker to send buses around the Liberties than around College Green, Pearse Street, Westland Row if going to the Quays and Westbound. Dublin City Centre is not huge people can walk to another place to get a bus.

I suggest sending all routes a different way only some in order to balance out and prevent buses all getting stuck in the one place which is currently happening in College Green.

Stephen15 · 08-02-2018 6:54pm

Ernest wrote: »

Correct. It was crazy to force large electric trains/trams through the city centre streets in a city like Dublin instead of putting them off-street through either underground or on stilts (elevated), as you say.

Remember too that the existing DART is an ELEVATED Railway in the City Centre all the way between Ballsbridge and Clontarf (Lansdowne Rd to Killester stations). that's why it can run so efficiently without disrupting traffic.

The Luas is a tramway and The Dart is a Railway.

hmmm · 08-02-2018 7:26pm

Nothing moving on Tara Street this evening. Still, it's only bus passengers affected.

Phil.x · 08-02-2018 8:29pm

When will we see people sacked.

https://www.rte.ie/amp/939243/

devnull · 08-02-2018 8:48pm

Phil.x wrote: »

When will we see people sacked.

https://www.rte.ie/amp/939243/

That incident was caused by a taxi driver who blocked the LUAS by stopping in a yellow box junction, if the taxi driver didn't do that the incident would not have happened at all and the LUAS would have got through.

Only bad doctors treat symptoms rather than causes, and the cause of the above was the fact that traffic offences are allowed on a regular basis on our streets due to lack of enforcement and the private cars and taxis are a law unto themselves because the powers that be don't want to clamp down on this kind of thing.

cherryghost · 08-02-2018 8:52pm

devnull wrote: »

That incident was caused by a taxi driver who blocked the LUAS by stopping in a yellow box junction, if the taxi driver didn't do that the incident would not have happened at all and the LUAS would have got through.

Only bad doctors treat symptoms rather than causes, and the cause of the above was the fact that traffic offences are allowed on a regular basis on our streets due to lack of enforcement and the private cars and taxis are a law unto themselves.

Actually I hope more of this nonsense happens, keep bringing the transport problems of the city to the front. And I'm especially ecstatic if Taxis continue to be a cause of it too.

Phil.x · 08-02-2018 8:54pm

devnull wrote: »

That incident was caused by a taxi driver who blocked the LUAS by stopping in a yellow box junction, if the taxi driver didn't do that the incident would not have happened at all and the LUAS would have got through.

Only bad doctors treat symptoms rather than causes, and the cause of the above was the fact that traffic offences are allowed on a regular basis on our streets due to lack of enforcement and the private cars and taxis are a law unto themselves because the powers that be don't want to clamp down on this kind of thing.

The cause was the luas.

devnull · 08-02-2018 9:00pm

Phil.x wrote: »

The cause was the luas.

:rolleyes:

No, the fact that the LUAS could not get past was because of the fact that a taxi blocked it, if the taxi was not blocking the LUAS by being in a place that it should not be in, the LUAS would have got through, which makes the taxi the cause and the LUAS not getting through a consequence as that.

Did you expect the LUAS to carry on and crash into the taxi that was in a position that it shouldn't be in that was blocking the way of the tram?

fritzelly · 08-02-2018 9:03pm

People blocking the yellow box has been happening since the Luas started and causing problems, actually it's always been a problem just more exacerbated now as it causes far more problems down the line of traffic

Phil.x · 08-02-2018 9:04pm

devnull wrote: »

:rolleyes:

No, the fact that the LUAS could not get past was because of the fact that a taxi blocked it, if the taxi was not blocking the LUAS by being in a place that it should not be in, the LUAS would have got through, which makes the taxi the cause and the LUAS not getting through a consequence as that.

Did you expect the LUAS to carry on and crash into the taxi that was in a position that it shouldn't be in that was blocking the way of the tram?

A Silly, stupid extra long tram was the problem, Dublin City planners and Co. are the second reason why it got stuck in the yellow box.

Also, how many times per hour does the luas block the yellow box at the college street junction.

devnull · 08-02-2018 9:06pm

There should be almost zero discretion when it comes to traffic offences in the city center because of the knock on effect it is happening on public transport that has always been an issue, but with the LUAS now going cross city, it becomes even more important that there is pretty much a zero tolerance attitude towards traffic offences such as those outlined in this thread.

Anytime I see a traffic offence in the city center, if anyone does anything about it, which itself is rare, it's a friendly little chat, told not to do it again and the driver normally just agrees not to do it again and does the same thing the next day and the day later because they know the Garda will simply tick them off but never actually do anything.

If the people committing these offences day in day out and knew they were going to get punished for them and not just a friendly chat, they'd soon stop, but right now they know that barely anyone is enforcing the rules and the chance of being actually punished is almost non existent so it will go on and on and on

Phil.x wrote: »

A Silly, stupid extra long tram was the problem, Dublin City planners and Co. are the second reason why it got stuck in the yellow box.

Remove the people who are breaking the rules of the road and remove the traffic offenders and you'll remove problems that happened like the case described on RTE this morning.

Dyr · 08-02-2018 9:09pm

While taxi drivers are nearly always culprits in the city centre, you can;t blame them and ignore the fact that the Luas drivers are behaving in the exact same way. They are the ones driving into junctions knowing full well they can't clear it and are going to block everyone else

Exact same thing this evening, Luas driver knew he was going to block the junction and he just carried on anyway.

devnull · 08-02-2018 9:14pm

Bambi wrote: »

While taxi drivers are nearly always culprits in the city centre, you can;t blame them and ignore the fact that the Luas drivers are behaving in the exact same way. They are the ones driving into junctions knowing full well they can't clear it and are going to block everyone else

Exact same thing this evening, Luas driver knew he was going to block the junction and he just carried on anyway.

I've today seen a taxi break lights and end up blocking a tram and this is by no means an isolated incident, in the past few weeks I've also seen cyclists and another taxi pull into the yellow box as the tram is crossing the bridge and the tram driving having to put their brakes on very hard to avoid a crash.

The taxis and the private cars need to be dealt with rather than a friendly tap on the shoulder and until the powers that be get real and deal with this issue with proper punishments and/or penalty points, drivers are still going to keep trying it in the knowledge that they won't get any punishment whatsoever.

Breaking red lights like I've seen in the last few weeks is extremely dangerous and could result in a serious incident sooner or later and quite frankly the Gardai owe it to the safety of the public to deal with this kind of thing.

BowSideChamp · 08-02-2018 9:29pm

Phil.x wrote: »

When will we see people sacked.

https://www.rte.ie/amp/939243/

Imagine the luas on both bridges blocking North and Southbound Quays when more of these 55m trams are running.

Stephen15 · 08-02-2018 9:33pm

devnull wrote: »

I've today seen a taxi break lights and end up blocking a tram and this is by no means an isolated incident, in the past few weeks I've also seen cyclists and another taxi pull into the yellow box as the tram is crossing the bridge and the tram driving having to put their brakes on very hard to avoid a crash.

The taxis and the private cars need to be dealt with rather than a friendly tap on the shoulder and until the powers that be get real and deal with this issue with proper punishments and/or penalty points, drivers are still going to keep trying it in the knowledge that they won't get any punishment whatsoever.

Breaking red lights like I've seen in the last few weeks is extremely dangerous and could result in a serious incident sooner or later and quite frankly the Gardai owe it to the safety of the public to deal with this kind of thing.

Unfortunately here in Ireland unless you murdered your granny, you in most cases the gardai and our justice system will let offenders away with a slap on the wrist.

dfx- · 08-02-2018 9:36pm

MJohnston wrote: »

With respect, that's just a restatement of the problem, not an actual plan for solving it.

No it is not a restatement of the problem. It is the first step for any solution.

All solutions to the problem start with getting buses through College Green first and foremost because the city runs through College Green.

Hurrache · 08-02-2018 9:50pm

devnull wrote: »

Remove the people who are breaking the rules of the road and remove the traffic offenders and you'll remove problems that happened like the case described on RTE this morning.

While ultimately the taxi may have caused this particular issue, the planners still need to shoulder some of the blame.

Anyone involved in similar design and planning know you need to plan for both expected and unexpected scenarios. Today's scenario falls into the so expected it's a certainty bucket. So what do you do in such a situation, you ensure there's no knock on effect. The longer tram is almost a folly. They needed to ensure that both nothing gets caught at the bridge blocking it and that there'll be space on the other side on O'Connell Street itself.

In a city like Dublin you really needed to have factored this certainly in instead of potentially wasting resources such as Gardai policing a relatively tiny bit of road space.

MJohnston · 08-02-2018 10:20pm

dfx- wrote: »

No it is not a restatement of the problem. It is the first step for any solution.

All solutions to the problem start with getting buses through College Green first and foremost because the city runs through College Green.

Okay, so where would you put the Luas instead?

Cookie_Monster · 08-02-2018 10:24pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Okay, so where would you put the Luas instead?

more, smaller trams?

MJohnston · 08-02-2018 10:28pm

I think this is the descending order of blame:

DCC are to blame for not following through with the NTA backed plan to remove all private traffic from Bachelor's Walk, Eden Quay, Burgh Quay and whatever you call that other southside Quay to the west of O'Connell Bridge. They've also failed us all completely on not enabling Parliament Street to be a capacity relieving alternative to College Green.

Private car drivers are to blame for being an absolute pox on the city centre.

The Government are to blame for not enabling the Guards to have the resources to properly police traffic.

The Guards are to blame for completely resisting automation of enforcement of a wide range of traffic offences, as well as not considering the outsourcing of manual enforcement of these offences.

Taxi, bus, and delivery drivers are to blame for not understanding that breaking traffic rules by, for example, blocking yellow boxes, simply leads to knock-on effects of congestion that makes their jobs more difficult in the long run.

Whoever designed the Luas signal patterns is to blame for not understanding that the aforementioned drivers were always going to be selfish and block junctions that the trams were supposed to get clear run-throughs at.

MJohnston · 08-02-2018 10:30pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

more, smaller trams?

Long trams aren't the problem. In fact fewer, longer trams would probably be significantly better for congestion.

Spanish Eyes · 08-02-2018 10:31pm

I know it won't happen anytime soon, but surely a dedicated Traffic management system, whether run by DCC (who have outsourced parking fines and clamping) or an outsourced company devolved from the Gardai who just seem to be turning a blind eye or are not interested would be good.

You know, number plate recognition, instant fines and all operated from a hub somewhere with CCTV.

Someone with half a brain can see this is essential in the city centre now, and if the Gardai are not interested, then the laws should be changed to allow outsourcing. Think of the moolah, and the retraining of the traffic chancers.

Who do I contact about this lol?

Hurrache · 08-02-2018 10:41pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

all operated from a hub somewhere with CCTV.

Such a place already exists in the form of Dublin City's traffic control centre in the civic offices, all the equipment and infrastructure is there.

Dyr · 08-02-2018 11:13pm

We could always run a couple of roads through Trinity College, it's a massive blockage in the middle of the city centre

BowSideChamp · 08-02-2018 11:37pm

Shops need to fined for accepting deliveries from Van drivers parked on a bus lane or a double yellow. Couple of black spots for this behaviour:

The Spar on Parliament St. Trucks & vans always parked blocking one of the main N/S arteries.
Age Action/Tesco on Camden St. Again same story, van drivers parked on bus lane without a care for the commuters they delay.

prinzeugen · 09-02-2018 2:23am

devnull wrote: »

That incident was caused by a taxi driver who blocked the LUAS by stopping in a yellow box junction, if the taxi driver didn't do that the incident would not have happened at all and the LUAS would have got through.

Only bad doctors treat symptoms rather than causes, and the cause of the above was the fact that traffic offences are allowed on a regular basis on our streets due to lack of enforcement and the private cars and taxis are a law unto themselves because the powers that be don't want to clamp down on this kind of thing.

The article states "It was blocked by a taxi beforehand".

Physics is the reason a 55m long tram cannot fit on a 45m long bridge, not taxis. Myself and others here said this would happen months ago.

I have yet to see a single Luas go from Westmoreland St to O'Connell St without stopping on the bridge.

StreetLight · 09-02-2018 6:35am

MJohnston wrote: »

I think this is the descending order of blame:

DCC are to blame for not following through with the NTA backed plan to remove all private traffic from Bachelor's Walk, Eden Quay, Burgh Quay and whatever you call that other southside Quay to the west of O'Connell Bridge. They've also failed us all completely on not enabling Parliament Street to be a capacity relieving alternative to College Green.

Private car drivers are to blame for being an absolute pox on the city centre.

The Government are to blame for not enabling the Guards to have the resources to properly police traffic.

The Guards are to blame for completely resisting automation of enforcement of a wide range of traffic offences, as well as not considering the outsourcing of manual enforcement of these offences.

Taxi, bus, and delivery drivers are to blame for not understanding that breaking traffic rules by, for example, blocking yellow boxes, simply leads to knock-on effects of congestion that makes their jobs more difficult in the long run.

Whoever designed the Luas signal patterns is to blame for not understanding that the aforementioned drivers were always going to be selfish and block junctions that the trams were supposed to get clear run-throughs at.

A lot of people to blame, yet no-one seems accountable.

suicide_circus · 09-02-2018 9:48am

We don't do accountability in ireland. For anything.

Podge_irl · 09-02-2018 9:59am

prinzeugen wrote: »

The article states "It was blocked by a taxi beforehand".

Physics is the reason a 55m long tram cannot fit on a 45m long bridge, not taxis. Myself and others here said this would happen months ago.

I have yet to see a single Luas go from Westmoreland St to O'Connell St without stopping on the bridge.

It doesn't need to fit on the bridge if the other road users obey the rules of the road. The blame here is 100% on the taxi.

Phil.x · 09-02-2018 10:05am

Podge_irl wrote: »

It doesn't need to fit on the bridge if the other road users obey the rules of the road. The blame here is 100% on the taxi.

But the luas blocks the yellow box at the college street junction all of the time, why doesn't the tram driver get points on his license and or a fine.

loyatemu · 09-02-2018 10:34am

I saw a Luas getting blocked yesterday at OCB (ironically by a DCC van) but as the Luas was trying to access OCB from Westmoreland St, the traffic already on OCB had a red light. If northbound traffic on OCB got a green light at the same time that the Luas got a signal to proceed onto the bridge then the path would be cleared. Currently there's a time lag between these 2 signals, seems like it should be easy enough to fix.

StreetLight · 09-02-2018 11:26am

Phil.x wrote: »

But the luas blocks the yellow box at the college street junction all of the time, why doesn't the tram driver get points on his license and or a fine.

Tram drivers are not bound by the Rules of the Road. They have their own signalling and marking system. A yellow box means nothing to them, literally.

hmmm · 09-02-2018 11:41am

Podge_irl wrote: »

It doesn't need to fit on the bridge if the other road users obey the rules of the road. The blame here is 100% on the taxi.

If you're responsible for planning a public transport system and you assume 100% compliance from other road users, I have a bridge to sell you.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 09-02-2018 11:45am

hmmm wrote: »

If you're responsible for planning a public transport system and you assume 100% compliance from other road users, I have a bridge to sell you.

Is it 10 meters too short?

devnull · 09-02-2018 12:29pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

The article states "It was blocked by a taxi beforehand".

Physics is the reason a 55m long tram cannot fit on a 45m long bridge, not taxis. Myself and others here said this would happen months ago.

There is plenty of time for it to get through without stopping if there is nobody committing traffic offences.

Phil.x wrote: »

But the luas blocks the yellow box at the college street junction all of the time, why doesn't the tram driver get points on his license and or a fine.

Do you also blame train drivers for not going through a level crossing when a cyclist/motorist blocks it when they have broken lights as well, or do you blame the people who actually caused the issue in the first place by breaking the rules of the road?

You also completely misunderstand the rules that apply to a light rail vehicle and your talk about licenses and penalty points like the tram is the same as a motor vehicle when it simply isn't the case.

Every time that I've seen a LUAS block that yellow box it has been caused by an illegal traffic act or someone doing something stupid ahead of them. The people doing this are the people that should be punished.

hmmm wrote: »

If you're responsible for planning a public transport system and you assume 100% compliance from other road users, I have a bridge to sell you.

If that's the case should we start removing level crossings as well and stop trains running until they have been removed in the same way that some people here are talking about stopping the LUAS?

dashcamdanny · 09-02-2018 1:08pm

devnull wrote: »

There is plenty of time for it to get through without stopping if there is nobody committing traffic offences.

Do you also blame train drivers for not going through a level crossing when a cyclist/motorist blocks it when they have broken lights as well, or do you blame the people who actually caused the issue in the first place by breaking the rules of the road?

You also completely misunderstand the rules that apply to a light rail vehicle and your talk about licenses and penalty points like the tram is the same as a motor vehicle when it simply isn't the case.

Every time that I've seen a LUAS block that yellow box it has been caused by an illegal traffic act or someone doing something stupid ahead of them. The people doing this are the people that should be punished.

If that's the case should we start removing level crossings as well and stop trains running until they have been removed in the same way that some people here are talking about stopping the LUAS?

That is not the case all of the time. I was stuck through 3 very long light sequences on fleet street with a full bus yesterday.
A tram was behind a bus trying to go past at the Garda station onto Collages green. The bus could not move as there was no space in front of the yellow box. Tram blocked the box. No one could move till the taxi traffic eased.

SOmthing has to go..

I personally think busses need to come out of there all together. Let the trams and the taxis battle it out, while the majority of people can go about their day.

hmmm · 09-02-2018 1:14pm

devnull wrote: »

If that's the case should we start removing level crossings as well and stop trains running until they have been removed in the same way that some people here are talking about stopping the LUAS?

Not sure I fully understand the point, but a level crossing has barriers (usually) - because the planners know full well that flashing lights and a yellow box aren't good enough to stop idiots.

The city centre is rife with taxis using their magical flashing lights, cars stopped in yellow boxes, cars in the wrong lanes, delivery trucks parked everywhere. We are not Geneva.

Podge_irl · 09-02-2018 1:24pm

hmmm wrote: »

If you're responsible for planning a public transport system and you assume 100% compliance from other road users, I have a bridge to sell you.

Grand so - we'll just reduce the roads to Thunderdome rules.

Properly enforce the rules of the road and you'll get compliance pretty quick smart. Irish people are not inherently uniquely incapable of sharing the road with other transport users.

It would help if the focus of reporting was on the moron who blocked the tram and not on the tram blocking traffic as if it was a luas screw up.

Dublin Bus Changes to Improve City Center Journeys

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