The Sub 3 Support Thread

TFBubendorfer · 14-07-2009 12:27pm

Rusty Cogs 08 wrote: »

For anyone who has gone for a sub 3 and failed, in hindsight, could you hypothosise where you went wrong in your training, race prep, race strategy ?

I've tried and failed twice, Dublin 08 and Boston 09. In hindsight, sub-3 was probably just out of my reach ability-wise, but both times I ran the first half at goal pace trying to force the issue. It probably cost me a couple of minutes on each try; but who's going to aim at running 3:02 ?

As already mentioned (sorry for hijacking the thread for a while), I decided to try and forget about sub-3 for a while. It's a mental issue more than anything else.

One other thing that has been mentioned as well, if you're close to the target it might help to run a flat marathon. Berlin is the obvious choice.

cfitz · 14-07-2009 12:46pm

Peckham wrote: »

2 miles out I had just under 15 minutes to bring me home in 2:59, which on a normal day was plenty of time (but I had been hurting badly from UCD flyover onwards). From memory, I think I did the penultimate mile at about 7:15 which was fine, but didn't realise I was slowing down severely. Coming along Clare Street I saw the race clock which was in the 2:59:50s which caught me by surprise, so I went hell for leather to get across the line. Went to stop my watch crossing the line, but my finger missed the button. Eventually stopped it on 3:00:05, so didn't know my time until I got a text from a friend later in the afternoon to say my time on the website was 3:00:00.

Ouch. Still, you should be able to get it down to below 2:55, and then you won't care about that second!

Lex Luther · 14-07-2009 4:36pm

Hi all , this is a great thread I've just discovered - very interesting last 20 minutes reading the 5 pages of comments and stories !

I'm running Dublin in October off a 3.00.04 PB but in the end gut wrenchingly disappointing run in Edinburgh last May.

Will be interesting to follow peoples progress over next couple of months.

In case anyone is interested my own progress so far has been as follows:

2005 3.21, (Dublin)
2007 3.20, (connemara) , 3.10 (Dublin)
2008 3.12.50 (boston ) 3.03.30 (Dublin - 1.32.30 , 1.31 splits)
2009 3.00.04 (edinburgh - 1.30.01 , 1.30.03 splits)

Plan this time is to increase overall mileage by 10% to max 65 and run first half at sub 1.29 and try to hang on.

Good luck to all.
LL

--amadeus-- · 16-07-2009 9:47am

I haven't been able to keep up with stuff properly (damn real life) but really interesting reading in here. The key really does seem to be consistency, irrespective of your mileage per week.

What kind of time drops are you all aiming at? I'm hoping to drop 6 minutes, which is a fair amount but should be achievable. Changes I've made (or am planning to make) to make it happen are mainly intensity & consistency. 4 weeks in and mileage is in teh mid-high 40s every week and LSRs are already up at 18 (20 tomorrow). I'll be in teh 50s from next week and hoping to peak above 60 and hit those long runs every week, something I haven't done before.

Peckham · 16-07-2009 10:38am

--amadeus-- wrote: »

What kind of time drops are you all aiming at?

1 second!

Seriously, if I was offered that now, I'd grab it with both hands. Hoping to go at 6:45 pace with is 2:58 or thereabouts.

Consistency does indeed seem to be the strong message coming from this thread, and I fear that could be my downfall. Am still not back on the road following my operation last Friday, and looks like it will be next Monday before I'll be back. That will be a break of 10 days from training, which coupled with my wedding break really casts a shadow over my training. Since late-March/April, my training would be as follows:
- 4 weeks building up to 50 miles per week
- 2 weeks of 30-40 miles
- 3.5 weeks off
- 4 weeks building back up to 50 miles per week
- 1 week of 30 miles
- 1.5 weeks off

...so from next week to Berlin I'm looking at:
- 1 week of 40 miles
- 1 week of 50 miles
- 5 weeks of 50+ miles (peaking at 60)
- 2 week taper

Endurance is going to be a problem for me, so I keep on rethinking my long run strategy. At the moment I'm thinking 3 x 20/21 mile, 3 x 18 miles (at least 2 of these being done as progression runs).

Am trying to remain optimistic, but have a feeling I could be heading to London next April still seeking my sub-3!

asimonov · 16-07-2009 11:12am

I'm looking for *gulp* 23 minute drop. Hoping to get it with

- 21 week training programme
- 12 weeks at 65 miles
- 6 days per week training
- maxing at 2 x 23 mile lsr's, mix fast finish and ord. lsr's
- proper structure & session, tempo, interval & pmp
- joined a club so have training partners for key sessions
- gave up smoking & improved diet
- dropped some weight

From reading accounts above, it's a very thin line, so hopefully will have the wherewithall and luck to manage the race itself ok.

Lex Luther · 16-07-2009 11:23am

Hi just a passing thought. If anyone in this group is running Adidas 10 mile in August it would be interesting to compare and contrast our relative progress towards the sub 3 marathon. Also interesting to see how our 10 mile target times would compare to the actual achieved and what this might mean for our marathon tagets and planning. ( Well interesting to me anyway !:rolleyes:).

We could continue to track progress in a similar way for the half two if there are enough people in the same boat ?

Anyway just in case this seems worth doing my 10 mile target is sub 1.03.30.

LL

wizwill · 16-07-2009 11:45am

Attempting my first sub-3, mcmillan times suggest its possible (1.25.19 HM - converting to a 2.59.56). Whilst possible, experience and a read through this thread tells me its not probable, but hey, if training goes well and i stay injury free who knows!

What runners are you planning to use for your races? I have tried Asics DS Trainer and they dont work for me, I train in Kayano's and the drop at the back of the runner (in the DS) put too much strain on my achilles and my calf and has lead to three injuries the three times i have worn them. I am using Brooks T6 for 5k, 10k, and HM, I really like them although they are recommended up to HM, I would love to test them on race day but dont think its sensible.

I have seen many recommendations of the Nike Luna range, the new luna glide look nice if a little heavier than the trainer or racer. Any thoughts on these or other recommendations

asimonov · 16-07-2009 11:56am

I'm aiming for a 62 min 10 mile time, but I'm doing one in two weeks in ballynonty as well as the addidas one.

Wizwill, I think I'm going to run in my Brooks st4's

Sosa · 16-07-2009 12:20pm

asimonov wrote: »

I'm aiming for a 62 min 10 mile time, but I'm doing one in two weeks in ballynonty as well as the addidas one.

Wizwill, I think I'm going to run in my Brooks st4's

Myself and sungod did Ballynonty last year....mile 10 felt like 1.5m.
Scorching hot day also which did not help,but we got a nice t-shirt and got stuffed with the best of sandwiches,tart,buns and tea in the community hall which is actually a semi-detached in a small estate.

Good luck

asimonov · 16-07-2009 2:37pm

Sosa wrote: »

Myself and sungod did Ballynonty last year....mile 10 felt like 1.5m.
Scorching hot day also which did not help,but we got a nice t-shirt and got stuffed with the best of sandwiches,tart,buns and tea in the community hall which is actually a semi-detached in a small estate.

Good luck

Sounds both ominous and delicious. Looking forward to it. What do your reckon on the castle 5k, is it gonna be fast?

aero2k · 16-07-2009 3:42pm

asimonov wrote: »

I'm looking for *gulp* 23 minute drop.

Me too!
McMillan had me at 3:06-3:07 based on my 10 and 1/2m times from last year, but I blew it on the day by going for a sub 3 that I was never going to get. I'm running 7 days a week (just got a Garmin so I'll be able to post my weekly mileage next week) and I'll have about 20 weeks focused training on top of a reasonable base. Best of luck!

Sosa · 16-07-2009 3:45pm

asimonov wrote: »

Sounds both ominous and delicious. Looking forward to it. What do your reckon on the castle 5k, is it gonna be fast?

I think ( hope ) so,the flyer said it will be...but they all say that.
TBH its the only reason i am doing it,its playing havoc with my marathon training,rescheduling LSR's is not ideal.

aero2k · 18-07-2009 4:09pm

Hi all,

Did 31:18 for the 5 in the Park today. (chip time was 31:31 but I'm using Garmin time as I had to stop to tie my lace after 1/2 a mile!). I felt like I could run 10 miles no problem after the finish, but realistically I don't think I could have got near McMillan's target of 30:36 on the day - maybe I lost 10 secs that I shouldn't have. I have been doing lots of aerobic training and some tempo runs.
My question is should I now revise my DCM target to 3:04 as per McMillan, wait and see how the 10 mile goes, or do some more LT work?
Thanks,
aero2k

Sosa · 18-07-2009 4:41pm

aero2k wrote: »

Hi all,

Did 31:18 for the 5 in the Park today. (chip time was 31:31 but I'm using Garmin time as I had to stop to tie my lace after 1/2 a mile!). I felt like I could run 10 miles no problem after the finish, but realistically I don't think I could have got near McMillan's target of 30:36 on the day - maybe I lost 10 secs that I shouldn't have. I have been doing lots of aerobic training and some tempo runs.
My question is should I now revise my DCM target to 3:04 as per McMillan, wait and see how the 10 mile goes, or do some more LT work?
Thanks,
aero2k

Everyone is different aero2k...but i personally think you should be nearer 29 mins for 5m to have a right good go at sub 3.
Recently i ran 29:33 and 29:39 and i reckon i am 50/50 at best to do it.

From reading on boards the last 18 months about people even going sub 29 for 5 not doing it....it really shows me how tough a task it is.

mithril · 18-07-2009 8:10pm

Peckham wrote: »

2 miles out I had just under 15 minutes to bring me home in 2:59, which on a normal day was plenty of time .

This is a re-occurring issue running through the thread. My fastest KM on a flat course in Seville was KM 35 and was still running strongly but I found the last 20 minutes very difficult and shed 1 minute in the last 5k (I finished 3:03).

Why does this happen and is there specific training that offer a remedy or do you just have to accept that you will slow down in the last few KMs and bank a few additional safety minutes in the earlier section of the run?

In my own experience it appears to relate more towards accumulated muscle damage than running out of energy as glycogen stocks are used up.

Is it a concidence that my longest run is 23 miles (foolowing the general guidelines) and after this distance in a race is where I start to slow.

Do ultra-runners suffer the same way when running a marathon distance?
Would increasing my longest training run to a full marathon length help?

theFinishLine · 18-07-2009 8:54pm

mithril wrote: »

This is a re-occurring issue running through the thread. My fastest KM on a flat course in Seville was KM 35 and was still running strongly but I found the last 20 minutes very difficult and shed 1 minute in the last 5k (I finished 3:03).

Why does this happen and is there specific training that offer a remedy or do you just have to accept that you will slow down in the last few KMs and bank a few additional safety minutes in the earlier section of the run?

Is it a concidence that my longest run is 23 miles (foolowing the general guidelines) and after this distance in a race is where I start to slow.
?

I think (only from my own experience) that it is a mixture of your suggestions in your message above. I have ran sub 2:40 a couple of times. But these times only happened AFTER I actually reduced the number of 22 miles and over long runs I did coming up to the marathon and increased the amount of speed work I did. The speed work took the form of say two decent tempo runs per week (30 minutes without stopping @ marathon pace) and then if the calendar worked out a 5KM or 10km Race. Excluding the last 10 days before the marathon - I try to race once per week for the final six weeks of training. Again only from my experience but as the races pass by you feel yourself getting less fatigued at the end of them. This in turn has physical and psychological advantages for me in the marathon.

I also try to build in an insurance minute or 90 seconds for the last 10KM. I have ran over 30 marathons and never seen myself in one where I haven't slowed by some amount in the final few miles. I would not agree with a strategy that tries to build in a very big insurance as this can go wrong big time.

I have mentioned it on other threads that again from personal experience I have found splitting the marathon into 10, 10 and 6 miles a massive help.

I am not sure if my reply is coherent, useful, sensible (or combination of any of these) but I can vouch that the above approach has worked for me very well.

--amadeus-- · 19-07-2009 10:00pm

mithril wrote: »

This is a re-occurring issue running through the thread. My fastest KM on a flat course in Seville was KM 35 and was still running strongly but I found the last 20 minutes very difficult and shed 1 minute in the last 5k (I finished 3:03).

Why does this happen and is there specific training that offer a remedy or do you just have to accept that you will slow down in the last few KMs and bank a few additional safety minutes in the earlier section of the run?

In my own experience it appears to relate more towards accumulated muscle damage than running out of energy as glycogen stocks are used up.

Is it a concidence that my longest run is 23 miles (foolowing the general guidelines) and after this distance in a race is where I start to slow.

Do ultra-runners suffer the same way when running a marathon distance?
Would increasing my longest training run to a full marathon length help?

That's the holy grail and whoever finds the answer will make a lot of money!

I'm exactly the same. In teh last cycle I was well able to batter through mid-length PMP runs (12 - 14 milers for example) so speed was clearly not an issue. So I figured I am lacking endurance and so more (and slower) LSRs must be the answer. I'm still 12 weeks out from Rotterdam but I've got my first 20 under my belt and I'm planning on doing more and longer LSRs than in other cycles.

But then I saw that Peckham is planning pretty much exactly the opposite to get exactly the same result!

At the end of the day we all have the speed - every one of us can knock out 6:45 miles. And we all have the endurance - running 26.2 miles when fully trained isn't a challenge.

What is tough is the speed endurance. And that seems to be the bit that no one can work out how to guarantee!

rigal · 20-07-2009 9:18am

aero2k wrote: »

Hi all,

Did 31:18 for the 5 in the Park today. ......I don't think I could have got near McMillan's target of 30:36 on the day -

Hi aero2k, congrats on another fast time. IMO the adidas 5 miler is not a good course for setting all-out pbs. If you ran a flat 5 I think you would have definitely made it in under 30.36.

aero2k · 20-07-2009 9:45am

rigal wrote: »

Hi aero2k, congrats on another fast time. IMO the adidas 5 miler is not a good course for setting all-out pbs. If you ran a flat 5 I think you would have definitely made it in under 30.36.

Thanks Rigal,
I thought it was just me but looking at all the splits posted everyone seems a lot slower over that 4th mile - despite it not being very steep it is uphill all the way. I take a lot of consolation from your kind words, the fact that I was able to speed up a bit at the end, and the fact that I felt very good afterwards and on my 8-mile recovery run yesterday. Hopefully I can get closer to the target for the 10 mile, I think the speed for the shorter distances is a bit beyond my capacity / training program.
I see you have the lakes 10k as a target - looks like a great race. I'd love to do it but I think I'll stick to what I've got planned for this year.

aero2k · 20-07-2009 9:58am

rigal wrote: »

Hi aero2k, congrats on another fast time. IMO the adidas 5 miler is not a good course for setting all-out pbs. If you ran a flat 5 I think you would have definitely made it in under 30.36.

Thanks Rigal,
I thought it was just me but looking at all the splits posted everyone seems a lot slower over that 4th mile - despite it not being very steep it is uphill all the way. I take a lot of consolation from your kind words, the fact that I was able to speed up a bit at the end, and the fact that I felt very good afterwards and on my 8-mile recovery run yesterday. Hopefully I can get closer to the target for the 10 mile, I think the speed for the shorter distances is a bit beyond my capacity / training program.
I see you have the lakes 10k as a target - looks like a great race. I'd love to do it but I think I'll stick to what I've got planned for this year.

Peckham · 20-07-2009 1:27pm

Had a big think about my sub-3 attempt over the weekend, and have pretty much decided to postpone it until London next April. Berlin is coming round far too quickly for me, and in hindsight I probably should never have considered it. Training this year has been far too broken and I don't feel anywhere near where I need to be to put in a decent time (this far out from Dublin last year I put in an 84 min half in Longford - if I ran a half now I very much doubt I'd go sub-90 without hurting myself!). What I had planned over the next few weeks is probably far too much and risks injury/burn-out - especially seeing as I now haven't run in 10 days.

Don't want to go to Berlin and have a disappointing experience.

Am very much thinking now that I should concentrate on shorter stuff for the rest of this year and then start into January feeling full of confidence for an attempt in April. Will be starting London from the Good For Age section, so based on RoadRunner's experience in that section this year, a good time is achievable from there.

Have my flights and hotel booked for Berlin, so could maybe find someway of helping a fellow boardsie out here if they're stuck for one or both of these.

shels4ever · 20-07-2009 1:30pm

Peckham wrote: »

Had a big think about my sub-3 attempt over the weekend, and have pretty much decided to postpone it until London next April. Berlin is coming round far too quickly for me, and in hindsight I probably should never have considered it. Training this year has been far too broken and I don't feel anywhere near where I need to be to put in a decent time (this far out from Dublin last year I put in an 84 min half in Longford - if I ran a half now I very much doubt I'd go sub-90 without hurting myself!). What I had planned over the next few weeks is probably far too much and risks injury/burn-out - especially seeing as I now haven't run in 10 days.

Don't want to go to Berlin and have a disappointing experience.

Am very much thinking now that I should concentrate on shorter stuff for the rest of this year and then start into January feeling full of confidence for an attempt in April. Will be starting London from the Good For Age section, so based on RoadRunner's experience in that section this year, a good time is achievable from there.

Have my flights and hotel booked for Berlin, so could maybe find someway of helping a fellow boardsie out here if they're stuck for one or both of these.

The Novice XC might be a nice target for you, you'd do fairly well in that

.

Sosa · 20-07-2009 1:46pm

Peckham wrote: »

Had a big think about my sub-3 attempt over the weekend, and have pretty much decided to postpone it until London next April. Berlin is coming round far too quickly for me, and in hindsight I probably should never have considered it. Training this year has been far too broken and I don't feel anywhere near where I need to be to put in a decent time (this far out from Dublin last year I put in an 84 min half in Longford - if I ran a half now I very much doubt I'd go sub-90 without hurting myself!). What I had planned over the next few weeks is probably far too much and risks injury/burn-out - especially seeing as I now haven't run in 10 days.

Don't want to go to Berlin and have a disappointing experience.

Am very much thinking now that I should concentrate on shorter stuff for the rest of this year and then start into January feeling full of confidence for an attempt in April. Will be starting London from the Good For Age section, so based on RoadRunner's experience in that section this year, a good time is achievable from there.

Have my flights and hotel booked for Berlin, so could maybe find someway of helping a fellow boardsie out here if they're stuck for one or both of these.

Very sensible....main thing about training for me is the enjoyment....you cant get into a situation where your dreading the thoughts of it because you cant do what you have planned for youself....London will be around before you know it

cfitz · 20-07-2009 2:04pm

theFinishLine wrote: »

I think (only from my own experience) that it is a mixture of your suggestions in your message above. I have ran sub 2:40 a couple of times. But these times only happened AFTER I actually reduced the number of 22 miles and over long runs I did coming up to the marathon and increased the amount of speed work I did. The speed work took the form of say two decent tempo runs per week (30 minutes without stopping @ marathon pace) and then if the calendar worked out a 5KM or 10km Race. Excluding the last 10 days before the marathon - I try to race once per week for the final six weeks of training. Again only from my experience but as the races pass by you feel yourself getting less fatigued at the end of them. This in turn has physical and psychological advantages for me in the marathon.

I also try to build in an insurance minute or 90 seconds for the last 10KM. I have ran over 30 marathons and never seen myself in one where I haven't slowed by some amount in the final few miles. I would not agree with a strategy that tries to build in a very big insurance as this can go wrong big time.

I have mentioned it on other threads that again from personal experience I have found splitting the marathon into 10, 10 and 6 miles a massive help.

I am not sure if my reply is coherent, useful, sensible (or combination of any of these) but I can vouch that the above approach has worked for me very well.

That's interesting. Any chance you could post up a typical week's training (maybe from about 8 weeks out from the marathon)?

MayoRoadRunner · 20-07-2009 2:21pm

Hey all. After carefull consideration I'm opting out of DCM 09. Ran 29.40 in addidas 5 miler. Was really happy to break the 30 min mark. However current mileage is c. 15-20 miles a week and i'm risking injury jumping into a 40 week plan at this stage. Ran DCM 08 in 3.10. Think i could make small improvement on that this year but going to hold out and maybe try London in April. Still going to increase milage gradually to 50 miles/week and be in good shape leading into plan in Jan 2010.
Is there any other fast spring marathon people would recommend?
Tks

--amadeus-- · 20-07-2009 2:51pm

IMO Rotterdam is the best marathon in the world.

Very fast course, good crowd support, excellent aid stations, incredibly well organised chip collection, perfectly organised start, good value, brilliant post race "stuff" (free videos, photos and race analysis), great technical finishers T. I could go on - it really is fantastic. It's in April, usually around teh same time as Paris.

MayoRoadRunner · 20-07-2009 6:51pm

-amadeus-- IMO Rotterdam is the best marathon in the world.

Very fast course, good crowd support, excellent aid stations, incredibly well organised chip collection, perfectly organised start, good value, brilliant post race "stuff" (free videos, photos and race analysis), great technical finishers T. I could go on - it really is fantastic. It's in April, usually around teh same time as Paris.

Thanks Amadeus. You have me sold. Rotterdam 2010 it is!

TheRoadRunner · 20-07-2009 7:03pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

IMO Rotterdam is the best marathon in the world.

Sounds good and have heard good stories about Rotterdam. Have you done other international marathons and how do they compare ?

--amadeus-- · 20-07-2009 7:39pm

I've done a couple of other international marathons.

Paris I wasn't sold on - great course from a sight seeing POV but narrow and (for teh time band I was in at the time) very, very congested. Def one to do for the experience though, the fueling stands included a few that had wine, cheese, cider... The French really know how to eat! Not a PB course though.

Berlin I also ran and it was excellent - great course, great support. Chip collection was a disaster and it was pretty pricey - the t shirt was a plain cotton one that you had to pay extra for on top of a steep entry fee. Also teh carb drink is called Extran and is mixed from powder at the stands. One guy I know either got the dregs or a bad mix and it wrecked his race. Good after race party though

Other than that it's all been Irish races for me - Longford, Cork, Dublin. Dublin will always be good because it's where I ran my first but Rotterdam is the only overseas race I've run twice.

The Sub 3 Support Thread

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