The Sub 3 Support Thread

token56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588154#Comment_120588154

This is about my 8th week into this phase of training but I had a little niggle during one of the weeks so had reduced mileage then. No I'm doing a mix of tempo and marathon pace type work in this phase too. I've a log going that has it all covered if you are interested. According to the coach the real work starts in July but I already feel like some of the sessions are pretty decent.

healy1835

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587393#Comment_120587393

I think I saw you gliding around the PP yesterday while I was gurning my way through a 2 Mile TT 😭 You looked in about 2:30 shape 😁👍

AuldManKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120588142#Comment_120588142

Clontarf HM may not be the best 'signal' for Marathon shape as some of it is on hard sand and theres always a horrible breeze on the return, just when its getting tough. Dont put too much emphasis on this HM - your coach will have a fair idea on what shape you're in - he's normally pretty accurate!

Duanington

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120590300#Comment_120590300

Crap, I was away with the fairies, J - apologies !! Hope the TT went well.

2.30 800m shape maybe !

Duanington

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120587710#Comment_120587710

Currently aiming for in and around 9 hours running per week, I tend to focus a bit more on time spent running as opposed to actual mileage but that usually translates to around 65 miles p\w.

Self made plan, based on the usual principles and nothing too fancy or complicated, focusing on getting the legs spinning a little faster at the moment before transitioning over to marathon stuff over the next 4\5 weeks.

I'll most likely peak at around the 10\11 hours per week park (about 8 weeks out from Berlin) - its high enough mileage compared to others but a lot of it is very very slow and low risk

squinn2912

Well lads.

token56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120599004#Comment_120599004

Yeah I know it's probably not the quickest of HMs I could have chosen but it works well in the calendar. I'll be hoping for no wind on the day.

Murph_D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120602809#Comment_120602809

Very very unlikely to have no wind - be prepared for a different kind of race. I think it's an awful HM personally and I'd never do it in a marathon build-up, more because of the sand (some of it will be soft sand) than the wind.

token56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120606031#Comment_120606031

Hmmm, maybe I might consider an alternative. I would really like something I can give an honest effort at.

AuldManKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120607011#Comment_120607011

Have a look in here: Half Marathons in Ireland - Running Calendar

Waterford Mara has a HM option towards the end of June?

If all else fails the Irish Runner 10m in the PP on 23rd July is a good honest effort - also the National 10m Championships!

chabsey

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120607011#Comment_120607011

I run along the seafront at Clontarf quite regularly and even on days when everywhere else nearby appears entirely still and quiet, there'll be a decent wind hitting you in some direction along there.

marathon2022

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120608083#Comment_120608083

There's a good reason its a kite surfing mecca

token56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120607766#Comment_120607766

Thanks for that, I appreciate it. Unfortunately I've a wedding to attend the weekend of the Waterford marathon/half marathon. I could go for Kilkee instead of Clontarf but not sure that would be any faster. It is by the coast too and a nice bit of elevation by the look of the course profile.

I'm not sure if anyone has any experience with Kilkee?

Lazare

Tentatively dipping my toes into this thread.

'If' I attempt it this year at Amsterdam it will likely be down to the absolute wire.

For anyone else that scraped over it, what were your PBs at the time?

ClashCityRocker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120621506#Comment_120621506

My half was 82:50 and ten mile was 61:50 when i went sub 3, i did 2:59:52 on the day which probably counts as scraped over it 😊

healy1835

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120621506#Comment_120621506

Similar enough to the great Clash City Rocker above;

82:33 in the Half and 62:37 over 10 Miles. Both of those came during what ultimately turned out to be the block when I broke 3 hours for the first time.

I'm nearly sure there's either a sperate thread on people's PBs prior to going under 3 hours, or if there's not, it's a few years back on this thread. I think the takeaway overall was that it was very much dependant on the individual involved. One man's 1:26 half was another man's 1:22!

Lazare

Great stuff lads, and thanks J, I'll have a root back through the thread.

Wottle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632660#Comment_120632660

I'd love a sub 3 but have a few stepping stones first I think.

I was coaching a guy who ran 1'26'30 in the Tullamore half in August and 2'56 in Dublin. Think he had 8 or 9 weeks between, so a lot more wiggle room.

I guess the closer to race day, 4 or 5 weeks out, your half would want to be under 85.

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120632773#Comment_120632773

I'm signing up for the Tullamore half. Intention is to zone in on a target after that.

Murph_D

Twice your half plus x. It’s all about the x. I suppose x gets smaller as HM time gets lower but your own history will tell give you a good starting point. My own x is about 12 mins. As a proportion of HM it’s about 13 percent. Not sure how that lines up with others - I suspect it’s less than ideal!

AuldManKing

Training for a HM is a lot different to training for a Mara - so is the question really - 'what was your Half PB when you were training for the Mara?'

I know a few coaches who say that you shouldn't be in HM PB shape 4-6 weeks out from a Marathon - ideally you should be in HM PB shape 12-14 weeks out from a Marathon and then extend that fitness into the Marathon.

I reckon super shoes and Maurten have changed 'X' @Murph_D - my last 2 coaches would be looking at 6-8 mins for X

Duanington

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639346#Comment_120639346

Heard a lot of discussion on this recently actually, interesting take on it from the former coaches (heard one of them discuss it on his podcast). As with everything, I think context is key - there are training methods out there that absoloutely will have you in HM PB shape in the run up to a marathon, there are some that just shouldn't and won't, like you rightly point out, they're very different events.

Running is so unique like that though, we are never really using an exact science - because we are dealing with so many variables at any one time.

There are also individuals that need more of a certain type of work than others to maximize their HM potential

My own HM and 10 mile times were similar to Healy's when I first ran Sub 3, which, to date is by far the most comfortable marathon I've ever done. I was probably conservative with the 1.22x2 + x, in fact at the time my coach was convinced I was in low 2.50s shape, I was not, however !!

While the half is a good indicator, its really only one of many when you think of it, thinking back now, some of the sessions in that block definitely pointed to a better full time (and also played into AMK's comments about not being in HM PB shape)

Lazare

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639346#Comment_120639346

Yep, good point. For me personally that's actually a more fitting question, 'what was your HM time 4 -6 weeks out'. My current HM pb doesn't have me knocking on the door of Sub 3 (suggests around 3:06) but I feel I've improved a little since then.

This will most likely be a 2024 endeavour for me but we'll see.

AuldManKing

Incidentally - I trained specifically for a HM in March and didn't PB (just outside - but it was a $hitty day :) ) - my best (i.e. most comfortable HM occurred during Marathon training - in Bohermeen where I ran a 1.21.xx but felt very comfortable and slowed down the pace for 6-7 miles due to a dodgy quad.

This was for an April Marathon that didn't happen due to Covid - but, more importantly, was also on the back of some training for the Dungarvan 10 were I ran 59.37 - this 10miler occured 10-11 weeks out from Race day. (probably the fittest I've ever been so far out from a Mara)

Gazzler82

after a multi month trawl just caught up. Big gap last couple years…whatever happened there ☺️.

Interested in talk of Amsterdam. Am looking at it for my current first sub 3 attempt. What’s the course like? It’s Holland so I presume flat??

Just rolling off a 1:22:35 HM PB in Cork though whether Amsterdam is a legit target or not depends if I get tickets for an NFL game in Frankfurt! Only 1 away trip can be afforded so whether it’s booze or running remains to be seen. I’ll know next month when tickets go on sale. Will Amsterdam sell out in the mean time?

before then going to target a sub 60 10miler at the John Buckley one in August. My sense that’s a lot tougher target but I know the course and there is a pacer.

Off to France next week so tip away this week and next (with an attempt to break 18 at local park run my current best on course 18:00)

there was a heated discussion a few pages/years back on Hanson v others and training philosophy. Big fan of Hanson (M PB of 3:08 in DCM’22) but just doing a bit of Jack Daniel’s for variety.

likely to mesh the JD phase 3 HM plan with a few Cork BHAA races in July plus maybe the q1 from the JD 2Q (72-88k) as my long run. Roll fully then onto JD 2Q if doing Amsterdam

So my week likely be 20min H/I session on a Monday race Wednesday/Thursday and q1 on Saturday come end of June

Sandwell

Re Amsterdam, it's pancake flat and it doesn't normally sell out. I'd recommend it highly based on my experience last year.