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Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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12357…323

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    #122
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,652 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The 14 day case rate has grown 2% in the past 7 days, and has fallen 5% in the last 3days. Looks like a peak to me

    That's not what I asked you, I'll get it myself.


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    #123
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,904 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The 14 day case rate has grown 2% in the past 7 days, and has fallen 5% in the last 3days. Looks like a peak to me

    In fairness, three days data is insufficient evidence of a peak.


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    #124
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    In fairness, three days data is insufficient evidence of a peak.

    A change in the growth rate from 60% to 2% in less than 3 weeks is indicating level 3 does something though, even with schools open


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    #125
    Dayo93
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Dayo93


    joeharte123 wrote: »
    Read on - I stated that schools are educational institutions, therefore students are educated there. Do you believe teachers aren't teaching? I don't understand your point.


    I was replying to this line " schools should not be seen as free state-run child minding service" which implies that parents dont see school as a place of education but a place to send their kids to get them out from under their feet. I have seen this quoted so much in some of the school threads its annoying, I am very happy with the education my kids get when they are in school and I think it says a lot about the quaility of their teachers when they are busting out the door to get to school in the morning as they love it.

    Mine are only early in primary and weather we like it or not schools do play a role in the daily minding of our kids , We all build our childcare needs around the school day .That doesnt mean we only look at schools as a childcare facility,


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    #126
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 2,904 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A change in the growth rate from 60% to 2% in less than 3 weeks is indicating level 3 does something though, even with schools open

    Of course level 3 does something, schools or otherwise. Restricted movement is always likely to reduce infection levels. I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here.


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    #127
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    Of course level 3 does something, schools or otherwise. Restricted movement is always likely to reduce infection levels. I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here.

    Started as a response to these posts and others in a similar vain, even though level 3 in Dublin has slowed growth which had begun to accelerate well before schools returning
    joeharte123 wrote: »
    Cases have been increasing, in Dublin and nationwide. It's in correlation to the schools reopening. As expected, cases would increase when schools reopen.

    25 - 30 students from different families mixing together for 7 hours in a post primary setting and a little less in primary setting. Without a doubt, this will spread the virus.
    solerina wrote: »
    It seems to be inevitable that level 3 won’t work and that at some stage in the future schools will be forced to close.

    Cases in schools have followed closely what is happening in the country as a whole (proportion of cases in 5-14 year olds has actually fallen) and will also follow them down if level 3 continues to be successful


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    #128
    vid36
    Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭vid36


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Started as a response to these posts and others in a similar vain, even though level 3 in Dublin has slowed growth which had begun to accelerate well before schools returning





    Cases in schools have followed closely what is happening in the country as a whole (proportion of cases in 5-14 year olds has actually fallen) and will also follow them down if level 3 continues to be successful

    Level 3 not having much impact in Donegal though. Leo more or less admitted last night that schools will close when we get to level five.


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    #129
    Jucifer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Jucifer


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    A change in the growth rate from 60% to 2% in less than 3 weeks is indicating level 3 does something though, even with schools open

    Of course, schools are just one transmission method. Think of it as a network with many links between all the people in the network. The more links you remove the slower the virus hits all the nodes in the network.

    That is what Tony Holohan was talking about this week when he indicated that if we want to keep the schools open we should move to level 5 i.e. remove as many other links as possible in the network.

    Say two households are linked through work, well they are also indirectly linked to many other households through school. Remove the workplace link and you are stopping the possibility of the an outbreak in the workplace transmitting to many other households via schools.

    So your point that the schools are open and growth in cases slowing doesn’t mean that transmission is low in schools, it means that the more restrictions you put in the rest of the system, the lower the likelihood of the infection getting into schools and spreading through the school system.


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    #130
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Jucifer wrote: »
    Of course, schools are just one transmission method. Think of it as a network with many links between all the people in the network. The more links you remove the slower the virus hits all the nodes in the network.

    That is what Tony Holohan was talking about this week when he indicated that if we want to keep the schools open we should move to level 5 i.e. remove as many other links as possible in the network.

    Say two households are linked through work, well they are also indirectly linked to many other households through school. Remove the workplace link and you are stopping the possibility of the an outbreak in the workplace transmitting to many other households via schools.

    So your point that the schools are open and growth in cases slowing doesn’t mean that transmission is low in schools, it means that the more restrictions you put in the rest of the system, the lower the likelihood of the infection getting into schools and spreading through the school system.

    The primary link in cases between households is not school, or work, its social contacts, both in homes and public settings. These are the direct, primary sources of spread at the moment. Look at the epidemiological data

    https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-19outbreaksclustersinireland/COVID-19%20Weekly%20Outbreak%20Highlights_Week392020_web%20version_v1.0_28092020.pdf


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    #131
    Boggles
    Registered Users Posts: 39,652 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The primary link in cases between households is not school, or work, its social contacts, both in homes and public settings. These are the direct, primary sources of spread at the moment. Look at the epidemiological data

    https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-19outbreaksclustersinireland/COVID-19%20Weekly%20Outbreak%20Highlights_Week392020_web%20version_v1.0_28092020.pdf

    7 in total in pubs? :pac:

    So they are still not contact tracing or have introduced any level of surveillance?

    That "data" is about as reliable as a chocolate teapot.


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    #132
    irishblessing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 962 ✭✭✭irishblessing


    A primary school principal sent this to the FB page 'Alerting parents of outbreaks in schools' - -

    "Thank you so much for everything you are doing on the page. I am happy for you to share this under condition of anonymity. I am a primary school principal based in Dublin. There have already been two cases in my school, within two days of each other, in the same class, in adjacent pods/groups. Our school hasn't featured in your group. The class teacher was not regarded as a close contact. I am sick with worry over the current situation. In spite of my concerns, our board of Management stuck by the rules and did not inform all parents in the school. HSE made contact with parents of children in the affected pods ONLY. The 'risk assessment' was carried out over the phone, wasn't in the slightest bit thorough and didn't take classroom layout, distancing, etc. in to account. Schools simply aren't safe. Principals won't speak up because if they do they run the risk of widespread panic in their schools. The INTO has been far from supportive, throwing schools under the bus during the summer and only surfacing in recent days as the reality of another potential closure is dawning on them. I am very worried for the health of my pupils and staff. I hope that your page gets attention from the media. Please keep this anonymous. I am happy to speak anonymously to any journalist if it with help to highlight this situation. Thank you again for bringing things to light."


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    #133
    Jucifer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Jucifer


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    The primary link in cases between households is not school, or work, its social contacts, both in homes and public settings. These are the direct, primary sources of spread at the moment. Look at the epidemiological data

    https://www.hpsc.ie/a-z/respiratory/coronavirus/novelcoronavirus/surveillance/covid-19outbreaksclustersinireland/COVID-19%20Weekly%20Outbreak%20Highlights_Week392020_web%20version_v1.0_28092020.pdf

    I don’t see enough information there to fully support your conclusions. Outbreaks linked to private houses are clearly the largest category. How is that determined however?

    Do they know that the outbreak was caused by transmission from another private house or is it that someone presented with symptoms and others in the same household were then tested and found positive? How did it get into the household in the first place? If they find a link, how do they determine the direction of causality?

    I’m not saying schools are the primary transmission mechanism or even in the top 3. I am just saying that there are enough unknowns and shortcomings in the test and trace system that we cannot take the figures published at face value.

    You may say that we have to trust the experts, however the experts aren’t the ones on the ground doing the test and trace, these are people drafted in with limited experience or training. That is who is feeding the data back up to the experts.


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    #134
    Jucifer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭Jucifer


    Also another thing on the information that can be deciphered from the epidemiological data. 25% of cases are community transmission yet most outbreaks are in private houses. I would like to know if one person in a household of 4 is tested and positive but community transmission and the other 3 in the household then test positive, is this 1 case of community transmission and 3 of close contact I.e 25% CT


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    #135
    SusanC10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭SusanC10


    Probably not a normal set of circumstances, but our 2 Kids going to school is the highest risk for our household at the moment as we have not visited another household since August and no-one has set foot inside our house since March.


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    #136
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    SusanC10 wrote: »
    Probably not a normal set of circumstances, but our 2 Kids going to school is the highest risk for our household at the moment as we have not visited another household since August and no-one has set foot inside our house since March.

    I think this is what the government are expecting from people in order to keep schools open, we'd be similar ourselves in that respect. The problem is that this is not what's happening in a lot of households.

    People just aren't looking properly at what's essential. Medical personnel, Gardaí, grocery supply chain and schools (in that order imo), because of their function in society as educational facilities and because the hours in which children are in them are utilised by those who are parents to earn a living. I'm sure teachers who are parents also find this a convenient time to work.

    Everyone has to do their bit. Constantly wishing and willing schools to close won't make them close. Everyone involved has a responsibility to ensure they are as safe as possible, and to demand that of everyone else involved. Chinese whispers on Facebook and Twitter doesn't help anyone.


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    #137
    irishblessing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 962 ✭✭✭irishblessing


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    Chinese whispers on Facebook and Twitter doesn't help anyone.

    What are you referring to there


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    #138
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    irishblessing wrote: »
    What are you referring to there

    Things like this:
    irishblessing wrote: »
    A primary school principal sent this to the FB page 'Alerting parents of outbreaks in schools' - -

    "Thank you so much for everything you are doing on the page. I am happy for you to share this under condition of anonymity. I am a primary school principal based in Dublin. There have already been two cases in my school, within two days of each other, in the same class, in adjacent pods/groups. Our school hasn't featured in your group. The class teacher was not regarded as a close contact. I am sick with worry over the current situation. In spite of my concerns, our board of Management stuck by the rules and did not inform all parents in the school. HSE made contact with parents of children in the affected pods ONLY. The 'risk assessment' was carried out over the phone, wasn't in the slightest bit thorough and didn't take classroom layout, distancing, etc. in to account. Schools simply aren't safe. Principals won't speak up because if they do they run the risk of widespread panic in their schools. The INTO has been far from supportive, throwing schools under the bus during the summer and only surfacing in recent days as the reality of another potential closure is dawning on them. I am very worried for the health of my pupils and staff. I hope that your page gets attention from the media. Please keep this anonymous. I am happy to speak anonymously to any journalist if it with help to highlight this situation. Thank you again for bringing things to light."


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    #139
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    Things like this:

    There was a principal on Radio1 with a similar story a few weeks ago. Consider it Chinese whispers if you want to just dismiss it but these type of stories aren't fiction.


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    #140
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    There was a principal on Radio1 with a similar story a few weeks ago. Consider it Chinese whispers if you want to just dismiss it but these type of stories aren't fiction.

    Did I say fiction? A message so short with some iteration of the word "anonymous" so many times just isn't proof to me of a single thing. I agree that there should be transparency in the method of contact tracing, but a school principal is not an expert on methods of contact tracing. I've said it before, people need to concentrate on what their own tasks are. If this principal has fault with the risk assessment procedure then they should be applauded for coming forward, as another principal (I'm not familiar with the situation you've mentioned) has already done. What's the difference between the two of them?


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    #141
    irishblessing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 962 ✭✭✭irishblessing


    Right so. My close friend teaches at a Primary in Meath who's principal is similarly very worried and upset along similar lines is also a liar? There's too many corroborations, and from teachers/principals on the last thread as well.

    There's a reason for the anonymity, as explained. The person is also willing to speak on the record, name withheld for obvious reasons. Not everyone is prepared to be a non-anonymous whistleblower and put their livelihood on the line.

    A principal is or should be the expert of their school and it's layout.

    You dismiss any information that doesn't fit into your view; it doesn't make it a "Chinese whisper." What a ridiculous phrase anyway. This isn't a game and the message was posted verbatim, not distorted.


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    #142
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    irishblessing wrote: »
    You dismiss any information that doesn't fit into your view; it doesn't make it a "Chinese whisper." What a ridiculous phrase anyway. This isn't a game and the message was posted verbatim, not distorted.

    Eh, no I don't. I just realise that the situation is dynamic, will remain so for some time to come, and that life can't stop completely. This principal cited "causing panic at the school" as a reason to remain anonymous, you cited fear for job- which is it? What fear anyway?? The line of the principal on Facebook has thus received your spin here. I find misinformation and/ or over exaggeration highly damaging in the scope of this whole pandemic.

    The government have prioritised schools remaining open, rightly so. This won't suit everyone and it should be discussed as to why, and if there is a reasonable basis for their doubts. Contingency plans should most definitely be in place for partial closures or absenteeism which are inevitable. These can only be of benefit for the future. While everyone is flapping around reposting things that they like on Facebook, the government and the Department of Education are off the hook for implementing these.


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    #143
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Ireland is very small so its a given that most people will know a teacher or someone close to a teacher. My daughter's friend is a teacher in a secondary school and says this week they will run out of PPE with no idea when they will get more. That's anecdotal but I've no reason to think its untrue. Stuff like that won't get publicity though. I'm sure there are many more people who have stories about lack of hygiene, breeches of social distancing etc in schools but there seems to be a blanket refusal to discuss.

    We get regular updates of how many cases of Covid are in nursing homes, meat factories, other places of business....why not schools?


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    #144
    irishblessing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 962 ✭✭✭irishblessing


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    Eh, no I don't. I just realise that the situation is dynamic, will remain so for some time to come, and that life can't stop completely. This principal cited "causing panic at the school" as a reason to remain anonymous, you cited fear for job- which is it? What fear anyway?? The line of the principal on Facebook has thus received your spin here. I find misinformation and/ or over exaggeration highly damaging in the scope of this whole pandemic.

    The government have prioritised schools remaining open, rightly so. This won't suit everyone and it should be discussed as to why, and if there is a reasonable basis for their doubts. Contingency plans should most definitely be in place for partial closures or absenteeism which are inevitable. These can only be of benefit for the future. While everyone is flapping around reposting things that they like on Facebook, the government and the Department of Education are off the hook for implementing these.

    Who is arguing for life to stop completely? Point that out please. If anything is distorted it's the thinking in that over-exaggerated, disingenuous comment. Look at yourself flapping around in that regard, not people speaking their truth.

    How about it's both reasons? The situation is dynamic, remember?

    If the government really wanted to prioritise schools remaining open then they would have implemented a phased reopening, an earlier released plan so that changes-especially structural- could actually be completed, provided more PPE, and a sensible hybrid remote learning plan as well as requiring masks for primary students where SD and ventilation in the classroom are poor.


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    #145
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Ireland is very small so its a given that most people will know a teacher or someone close to a teacher. My daughter's friend is a teacher in a secondary school and says this week they will run out of PPE with no idea when they will get more. That's anecdotal but I've no reason to think its untrue. Stuff like that won't get publicity though. I'm sure there are many more people who have stories about lack of hygiene, breeches of social distancing etc in schools but there seems to be a blanket refusal to discuss.

    We get regular updates of how many cases of Covid are in nursing homes, meat factories, other places of business....why not schools?

    There's no shortage of PPE, why don't they order more before it's due to run out?? Aren't hygiene and social distancing the responsibility of the schools themselves?


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    #146
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users Posts: 8,419 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    Contingency plans should most definitely be in place for partial closures or absenteeism which are inevitable. These can only be of benefit for the future. While everyone is flapping around reposting things that they like on Facebook, the government and the Department of Education are off the hook for implementing these.

    Think you'll find that nearly every teacher that has been on the various threads on here have been advocating for this. We all expected it to be part of the plan when it was announced.


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    #147
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    irishblessing wrote: »
    Who is arguing for life to stop completely?

    Anyone lobbying for schools to close, or insinuating that they should.
    irishblessing wrote: »
    Look at yourself flapping around in that regard, not people speaking their truth.

    I am not concerned about an individual's "truth". It's true or it's not, there's nothing subjective about the truth
    irishblessing wrote: »
    If the government really wanted to prioritise schools remaining open then they would have implemented a phased reopening, an earlier released plan so that changes-especially structural- could actually be completed, provided more PPE, and a sensible hybrid remote learning plan as well as requiring masks for primary students where SD and ventilation in the classroom are poor.

    Agreed, but secret communion parties and teachers sharing lifts to work are not the government's fault, are they? And that is what is driving community transmission.


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    #148
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    There's no shortage of PPE, why don't they order more before it's due to run out?? Aren't hygiene and social distancing the responsibility of the schools themselves?

    Obviously something went wrong if they have run out and can't source more but why is that? I can't answer that question but I would have concerns.

    I'm not sure how its realistic to expect a school to take on sole responsibility its pupils and parents. We're talking about kids here and one teacher trying to manage it all. I think they should be cut a bit of slack here.

    It doesn't answer my question though. Why are clusters in other sectors openly shared but schools aren't?


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    #149
    Lillyfae
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭Lillyfae


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Think you'll find that nearly every teacher that has been on the various threads on here have been advocating for this. We all expected it to be part of the plan when it was announced.

    Which is totally pointless, because Boards.ie and it's users are not responsible for implementing anything in schools.

    Lobby your unions with this. Have your union push it forward, loudly and clearly, to government. Every extra argument made is diluting every argument that came before it so focus on the most important things and cut out the rest of the noise.


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    #150
    irishblessing
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 962 ✭✭✭irishblessing


    Lillyfae wrote: »
    There's no shortage of PPE, why don't they order more before it's due to run out?? Aren't hygiene and social distancing the responsibility of the schools themselves?

    They are not being supplied by the government for teachers or for students in terms of masks or barriers. They have not ensured all teachers have plexiglass installed for their desks / front of room, nor have they provided plexiglass or some type of barrier for each student desk, as other countries have done.

    Pray tell how the school is going to enforce the recommend social distancing in overcrowded classrooms of among the highest class sizes in Europe in often old school buildings (or prefabs) not fit for purpose.

    You can't be taken seriously at this point.


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    #151
    SusanC10
    Registered Users Posts: 2,432 ✭✭✭SusanC10


    Any thoughts (particularly from Teachers) on an extended Mid-Term Break at this point ?


This discussion has been closed.
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