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To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

24567174

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    It's like a 35yo man hit by a bus and during the autopsy they find stage 4 lung cancer.
    "Ah, well he would have died soon anyway.."


  • Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭Pitch n Putt


    biko wrote: »
    It's like a 35yo man hit by a bus and during the autopsy they find stage 4 lung cancer.
    "Ah, well he would have died soon anyway.."

    Unlikely to be an autopsy if hit by a bus

    Cause of death would be clearly known no ??

    Anyway all off topic for this thread.

    This is the pro mask thread


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Graham wrote: »
    That's like claiming someone shot in the head may have died of a brain haemorrhage rather than gunshot.

    Keep trying..

    Come on, its not the same thing. Why do you think they call it covid related. Surely you know that.

    I don't really want to get into the 'from' and 'with' thing, its a bit cynical and obviously emotionally charged too.

    But its a fact that median age is 84 and mean age is 82 and most of those deaths occurred in nursing homes where people typically enter with complex medical issues and the average stay is under 2 years. Which is not saying that an old life is worth less, but at that age and with issues a lot of things will knock you out. Thousands of people die from respiratory diseases every year in Ireland. And its typically that age bracket. Its what people die from, its what eventually gets all of us. You and me too. That or stroke or heart or cancer.

    So it may sound callous but its obviously not the same as if 1800 perfectly healthy children had died.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    biko wrote: »
    It's like a 35yo man hit by a bus and during the autopsy they find stage 4 lung cancer.
    "Ah, well he would have died soon anyway.."

    That's exactly the logic some are trying to apply.

    Bizarro logic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 312 ✭✭sm3ar


    Do you have to wear them on planes or are they letting the visors go


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    sm3ar wrote: »
    Do you have to wear them on planes or are they letting the visors go

    Each airline appears to have it's own rules some influenced/set by their respective governments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭3xh


    Graham wrote: »
    Tosh.

    Premature death caused by Covid, is still death caused by Covid however much you pretend otherwise.

    You are ripe for being taken advantage of by all strands of society, my friend, if that’s how you ‘understand’ things.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    3xh wrote: »
    You are ripe for being taken advantage of by all strands of society, my friend, if that’s how you ‘understand’ things.

    The anti-maskers are coming for me :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    It's simple really - it puts the mask on its skin or else it gets phase 1 again..


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  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭3xh


    Graham wrote: »
    The anti-maskers are coming for me :eek:

    Awhh. Another catch-all label used by someone ‘on the other side’ to make themselves feel better.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    3xh wrote: »
    Awhh. Another catch-all label used by someone ‘on the other side’ to make themselves feel better.

    Can't say I have, or ever have had any problems with the way I feel about myself 3xh, but thanks for your concern anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    When is it ok to start using masko-phobes?
    It seems to be a hatred of them, and pretty irrational as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭moonage


    Graham wrote: »
    I've heard the term 'spreaders' used recently.

    I've heard the more ardent pro-maskers called bullsh1t spreaders.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    moonage wrote: »
    I've heard the more ardent pro-maskers called bullsh1t spreaders.

    You've been back at those youtube channels again haven't you..


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭s1ippy


    sabat wrote: »
    So you believe there's a deadly virus running free that poses an immediate threat to your life and you're walking around in public?
    Not if I can help it, but I still go over to family members who are cocooning. I pop into the petrol station because otherwise I wouldn't be able to fuel up my car. I can't think of a workaround but by all means throw out a suggestion if you have one. It's a low-risk activity.
    And that those poxy masks are sufficient to protect you?
    The masks worn by medical professionals are likely good enough to protect me for thirty seconds if everyone else wears one, socially distances and is conscious of behaving correctly when they have symptoms. I go at off-peak times.
    That doesn't really tally does it? Why aren't you wearing a hazmat suit or staying indoors in a plastic bubble?
    Like, I don't know what you want me to respond to this. Do you want me to actually explain why a person wouldn't do that?
    I know you think your post is some "voice of reason" plea for the common good, but it's not. You're a cowardly little fascist getting a buzz from being part of the mob vilifying dissenters. This is your real message:
    I note how you left out the part where I said that it's not going to be forever. As has been noted many times, people wore masks, socially distanced and self-quarantined during Spanish flu as well but we clearly haven't assimilated it into our culture. I'm not vilifying dissenters, I'm just trying to convey why I personally really appreciate people who can see my perspective and are willing to take the time and effort to consider the outcomes for people who are high risk. Other than calling me a fascist you haven't really given any insight as to your personal existential burden. Did a mask molest you or something?
    This is just the same 'theatre of fear' nonsense as making 80 year old Irish pensioners take off their shoes in airports.
    I mean, I'm not in favour of this happening, so I guess we agree..?
    I know I'll get a ban for this post, but enough is enough.
    Not edgy enough, tough luck bud.
    This has been bollocks for at least four months now. Where were the masks in April, May and June?
    Likely the demand for masks would have been too great and most cases were in healthcare settings back then, so they were being kept for healthcare professionals who needed them more. They would have been directly in contact with covid patients in many cases, which is why NPHET gave that recommendation; to prevent supplies from running out. Simple as that I'd say, but it ended up being a damaging message because they lost a huge amount of public trust for intentionally misleading people.

    When they introduced face coverings, nobody was really using medical masks. Now that there are more cases in the community there's a higher risk of catching covid. Everyone has proper masks now because it's easy to get them. I bought a pack of 50 back in January when I read about covid first because I have respiratory issues. I did the same during SARS as well but never needed to use them.
    Go ahead and call me names or question my intelligence-remember the 80% of Americans who believed Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11? That's who you mask fascists are. Programmed credulous suckers.
    I just wanted to quote this bit for posterity.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭moonage


    Graham wrote: »
    Of course people are going to be judged.

    If someone goes running around the M50 because they think road-safety is a government conspiracy, you're probably going to think 'what a pillock'.

    If the traffic-dodger then tells you they watched a Youtube video and read a Facebook post saying traffic was mostly harmless, you're likely to think 'what a really big pillock'.

    As analogies goes, this is is one of the silliest I've heard.

    Comparing not wearing a mask to running around on a motorway?


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭moonage


    "More Than a Dozen Credible Medical Studies Prove Face Masks Do Not Work Even In Hospitals!"
    It would appear that minimum contamination can best be achieved by not wearing a mask at all and that wearing a mask during surgery “is a standard procedure that could be abandoned.”
    But to my surprise the medical literature for the past forty-five years has been consistent: masks are useless in preventing the spread of disease and, if anything, are unsanitary objects that themselves spread bacteria and viruses.

    https://visionlaunch.com/more-than-a-dozen-credible-medical-studies-prove-face-masks-do-not-work-even-in-hospitals/


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭s1ippy


    The study is about wearing a masks and their impact on wound infections during surgery. In the case of covid and other respiratory viruses, viral particles need to enter the mouth or nose or through a membrane which will bring it to the respiratory system like the eyes, so it's not possible to infect somebody through a wound.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    moonage wrote: »
    More Than a Dozen Credible Medical Studies.....

    from the 'publication' that also brings you

    The 1958 ‘Psychological Warfare’ Plan Playing Out Before Us
    Press in His Pocket: Bill Gates Buys Media to Control the Messaging
    Plandemic Part 2 – Indoctrination World Premiere
    You won't believe you can save up-to 50% on tin-foil hats*

    :rolleyes:

    (ok, I made the last one up)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,318 ✭✭✭✭Ha Long Bay


    moonage wrote: »
    "More Than a Dozen Credible Medical Studies Prove Face Masks Do Not Work Even In Hospitals!"





    https://visionlaunch.com/more-than-a-dozen-credible-medical-studies-prove-face-masks-do-not-work-even-in-hospitals/



    visionlaunch.c0m

    From the creators of such titles such as:

    "Plandemic – A Must-See Micro-Doc About The Medical Mafia & Dr. Fauci"

    "Coronavirus is the New ‘Terrorism’"

    "Press in His Pocket: Bill Gates Buys Media to Control the Messaging"


    Maybe you would feel more at home in the CT forums?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,895 ✭✭✭Polar101


    I see the point raised of where were the masks earlier on in this and I can remember agreeing with the reasoning that they should be left for the health care sector but it has galled a bit to have the who/govt say they're not any help to the general public initially then when seemingly all else failed, they change tact and make them mandatory in certain settings.

    It gave me a sense of we haven't a clue what we're doing but we'll struggle on and the public will never realise.

    Sure, if you only look at the mask situation, then it might not make much sense. But there was the bit where everything except supermarkets were closed, and you were not supposed to travel anywhere. Public transport had very limited seating, so generally you wouldn't be very close to another passenger.

    Then a lot of the restrictions were lifted, people started moving about, and you'd be in contact with a lot more people in public spaces. And the mask recommendations changed to reflect the new situation.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    s1ippy wrote: »
    long post.

    Still doesn't tally. If a virus like ebola that has a high chance of killing me was running wild I wouldn't be going outside for any reason. If you're genuinely worried buy a protective suit with an oxygen supply-problem solved. But you won't do that even though it 100% guarantees you won't catch anything. Why's that? Because it's ridiculous and impractical, not for any rigidly scientific reason. You've triangulated to your own version of reality where government and media spin, your own neuroses, and the real world itself meet to form a static equilibrium of control.
    You're frightened so you lash out at people who you perceive as being a threat to your safety bubble.

    Do you have the exact figure of how much everyone else in the country wearing a mask reduces your odds of catching it? No you don't. Because no such statistics exist, only some abstract "feeling" in your mind conjured up by a government dictat and whatever media you've consumed. Many European countries have no requirement to wear a mask in public-are their health authorities conspiracy theorists?
    The numbers are bollocks because the test is bollocks. I could select a few hundred random perfectly healthy people off the street and test them and get dozens of positives. We could end this tomorrow if everyone just refused to wear a mask or get tested, turned off all media and said "fúck you and your new normal."


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    sabat wrote: »
    If you're genuinely worried buy a protective suit with an oxygen supply-problem solved. But you won't do that even though it 100% guarantees you won't catch anything.

    No need if everyone wears their masks which significantly reduces the risks.

    It's not rocket science.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    Graham wrote: »
    No need if everyone wears their masks which significantly reduces the risks.

    It's not rocket science.

    No but it is health science so link the study please. Specifically one that unambiguously states "significantly reduces."


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    sabat wrote: »
    No but it is health science so link the study please. Specifically one that unambiguously states "significantly reduces."

    Knock yourself out:

    https://lmgtfy.com/?q=do+masks+reduce+the+spread+of+covid


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭moonage


    Imagine a virus so deadly that you have to be tested in order to know if you have it or not.

    And then everyone is forced to wear masks in order to make sure they know, are constantly reminded and won't forget just how "deadly" it is and remains.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    moonage wrote: »
    Imagine a virus so deadly that you have to be tested in order to know if you have it

    ICU, ventilators and death are fairly unambiguous.

    Following your medical logic, AIDS must have been entirely harmless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭moonage


    Graham wrote: »

    I tried it and the answer came up "No".


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    moonage wrote: »
    I tried it and the answer came up "No".

    You've been back to your regular youtube channels again haven't you.

    Maybe it's worth considering the overwhelming majority advice from those qualified to give it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    I feel some sympathy for the staff in these circumstances but they could do with applying some common sense.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54096061


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,751 ✭✭✭✭degrassinoel


    Graham wrote: »
    You've been back to your regular youtube channels again haven't you.

    Maybe it's worth considering the overwhelming majority advice from those qualified to give it.


    just waiting for someone to name a quack anti-mask doctor to rebut that :pac:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭s1ippy


    moonage wrote: »
    Imagine a virus so deadly that you have to be tested in order to know if you have it or not.
    You have to be tested to find out if you have cancer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭nannerbenahs


    This is the best scientific and statistical analysis of the present situation in my opinion

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UvF...ature=emb_logo


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 55,534 ✭✭✭✭Mr E


    Mod: ^^ Broken Link, please fix (and test)


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭moonage


    More people in the UK have been dying from influenza than from Covid19 since the middle of June.

    Despite mask wearing, social distancing, hand sanitising, the flu death numbers are in line with the five-year average.

    If these measures haven't significantly slowed down the spread of flu there's no reason to believe they've significantly slowed down the spread of Sars-Cov-2.

    flu-deaths-greater-than-covid-deaths-ons-graph-aug-28th.jpg


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    s1ippy wrote: »
    You have to be tested to find out if you have cancer.

    What a nonsensical reply. Are excruciating pain, rapid weight loss, lumps under the skin, bleeding from weird places etc "asymptomatic?"


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    moonage wrote: »
    Despite mask wearing, social distancing, hand sanitising, the flu death numbers are in line with the five-year average.


    Or
    while flu deaths are running at about five times Covid-19 levels, they are markedly down on the average of the past five years. A mean of 1,394 people have died of influenza and pneumonia in the last week of July over the past five years – 50 per cent more than died this year.

    That is almost certainly a reflection of how effective social distancing has been in preventing flu deaths.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    sabat wrote: »
    What a nonsensical reply. Are excruciating pain, rapid weight loss, lumps under the skin, bleeding from weird places etc "asymptomatic?"

    You're not another one of those "it's not a serious illness if it needs a test" brigade are you?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭sabat


    Graham wrote: »
    You're not another one of those "it's not a serious illness if it needs a test" brigade are you?

    Othering and belittling through the use of the word "brigade." Well done.

    That other poster clearly said you need a test to see if you have cancer in order to make a point about people with zero symptoms testing positive for covid.

    Quite simply, many people who test positive for covid would never have known otherwise, because there's nothing wrong with them. This has been going on since the cruise ships back at the start.

    People with cancer will eventually know because it is highly symptomatic-the most severe of which is death.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    sabat wrote: »
    Quite simply, many people who test positive for covid would never have known otherwise

    Which does rather support the case for social distancing, hand washing and masks given that it can leave long-term side-effects or death.


  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭moonage


    Graham wrote: »
    while flu deaths are running at about five times Covid-19 levels, they are markedly down on the average of the past five years. A mean of 1,394 people have died of influenza and pneumonia in the last week of July over the past five years – 50 per cent more than died this year.

    That is almost certainly a reflection of how effective social distancing has been in preventing flu deaths.

    And then the article you quoted from continues:
    But it does also show that social distancing, lockdown and so on cannot be wholly responsible for the sharp fall in deaths from Covid-19 since April. Given that flu is spread in much the same way as Covid-19, why haven’t flu deaths fallen as sharply as Covid-19 deaths in reaction to lockdown measures? It rather suggests that something else has contributed to the fall in deaths from Covid-19. Herd immunity? A decline in the virulence of the virus? It does rather pose the question: why are we still placing serious restrictions on the economy and on personal freedom when Covid deaths are so much lower than deaths from the ordinary flu?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    So you accept your previous claim was wrong (again)

    "flu death numbers are in line with the five-year average"

    I guess that's fairly indisputable.

    At least you can take comfort in having a journalist asking a question.
    why are we still placing serious restrictions on the economy and on personal freedom when Covid deaths are so much lower than deaths from the ordinary flu?

    Covid deaths are so much lower as a result of the restrictions (as are flu deaths)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,133 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    sabat wrote: »
    Othering and belittling through the use of the word "brigade." Well done.

    That other poster clearly said you need a test to see if you have cancer in order to make a point about people with zero symptoms testing positive for covid.
    Quite simply, many people who test positive for covid would never have known otherwise, because there's nothing wrong with them. This has been going on since the cruise ships back at the start.
    People with cancer will eventually know because it is highly symptomatic-the most severe of which is death.

    In this case it is more appropriate to think of coronavirus as acting like a carcinogenic product than cancer itself.

    We ban carcinogenic products, and smoking in public places, so that other people's behaviour has less chance of triggering cancer in a bystander. We had no test to know which smokers or passive smokers would or would not go on to develop the disease, or which particular people would be triggered by particular carcinogenic products.

    Coronavirus is an infectious disease. You can have it and pass it on without knowing it.
    Which is why masks, distancing, track and trace, isolation are all important.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭moonage


    Graham wrote: »
    So you accept your previous claim was wrong (again)

    "flu death numbers are in line with the five-year average"


    Flu death numbers are in line with the five-year average as demonstrated by the light blue/dashed blue lines in the graph I posted earlier:

    flu-deaths-greater-than-covid-deaths-ons-graph-aug-28th.jpg


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    moonage wrote: »
    Flu death numbers are in line with the five-year average as demonstrated by the light blue/dashed blue lines in the graph I posted earlier

    Read the numbers behind the pretty graph.

    Up-to week 35 (28th Aug) for England and Wales

    The number of Influenza and pneumonia mentions are 14,976 lower than the 5 year average.

    The only week where the 2020 figures were higher than the 5 year average was week 14.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭moonage


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Coronavirus is an infectious disease. You can have it and pass it on without knowing it.
    Which is why masks, distancing, track and trace, isolation are all important.

    For the general population masks, distancing, track and trace, isolation are not important at all, now that we are at the tail-end of the epidemic and hardly anyone is getting sick.

    Social distancing and isolation may have been appropriate at the start to slow the spread so that the health service wouldn't be overwhelmed.

    Now it's all about test, test, test to try to find "cases". Cases of an infectious disease used to mean people with symptoms, often severe enough to need hospitalisation. Now Covid "cases" are mostly asymptomatic and so are not cases at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭Seanergy


    Unfortunately most died with covid 19 and even more tragically a lot of these poor people who lost their lives were caused by the panic to empty our hospitals resulting in a catastrophic disaster of infecting many nursing homes.

    The transfer of covid-19 positive patients from hospitals to nursing homes was only part responsible for the catastrophic disaster that happened. The other part that is less spoken of is that pre April 22nd the HSE reserved their limited mask supplies for Doctors and a few select others for Hospital settings only leaving all the HCW's in nursing homes without masks.

    There was a significant correlation between the proportion of staff with symptomatic covid-19 and resident numbers with confirmed/suspected covid-19.
    Asymptomatic carriage rates and case-fatality of SARS-CoV-2 infection in residents and staff in Irish nursing homes

    https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.11.20128199v1


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,133 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    moonage wrote: »
    Now it's all about test, test, test to try to find "cases". Cases of an infectious disease used to mean people with symptoms, often severe enough to need hospitalisation. Now Covid "cases" are mostly asymptomatic and so are not cases at all.

    1. They are not mostly asymptomatic.
    2. Asymptomatic, presymptomatic and those with mild symptoms can still be contagious.

    We are intercepting them with the testing and limiting them with masks, distancing ... before they infect more people because the more people are infected the more people with hospitalisation level symptoms there will be.

    Zero evidence we are at the tail end of an epidemic.

    There can be carriers of infectious diseases who themselves dont experience symptoms of it. Google Typhoid Mary. This is not a new concept.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭moonage


    odyssey06 wrote: »
    1. They are not mostly asymptomatic.

    Any idea of the percentage of those tested that are asymptomatic? And how many of those test positive?
    odyssey06 wrote: »
    Zero evidence we are at the tail end of an epidemic.

    The fact that hospitalisation/death rates have been falling steadily since April would be an indication.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    moonage wrote: »
    The fact that hospitalisation/death rates have been falling steadily since April would be an indication.

    Anything to do with the population being isolated for a large amount of time you think?


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