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Public Consultation on a Micro-generation Support Scheme (MSS) in Ireland

1356

Comments

  • #102
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    unkel wrote: »
    It's sad really. Almost 100 years ago the ESB were a very progressive organisation with a visionary leader. Look at them now.

    Yeah they still very much have that mentality of doing as little as possible and claim it's because they're underfunded

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • #103
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    slave1 wrote: »
    LOL, wish I was at the 10MW level (I think MW is 1,000kW?), with 2 EVs and normal working conditions I'm 24MW a year, immersion 365days, storage heater Nov-March then usual domestic appliances and thirsty home cinema.

    While FIT is nice I never factored it given Ireland's inept attitude and my full faith that the ESB will do everything in their power to render it financially meaningless.
    We should be matching our PV arrays to personal consumption and avoiding excess production IMHO, then FIT is irrelevant.

    If FIT, then net metering as early incentive as we need as much sustainable electricity production as possible.
    I've no electrical background but can see the need to move away from 60amp houses to 100amp, three phase is common enough in other countries but jazuz don't have that in Ireland, "sure what would you be doing that for" attitude.

    Ireland/ESB want to hold onto old ways, ESB need to move away from restrictive attitudes and move to open arms, we need large battery banks like Australia so excess becomes null and void.
    Blanket release of Planning Restrictions, boost the EV sector.
    I could go on, but what do I know

    Okay...buy a heat pump, it'll save you some electricity at least :D

    I mostly agree with what you're saying, self consumption is the best way for small generators, a FIT is best used to give a better ROI and to stop renewable energy being wasted.

    I don't really agree with people who intend to make money from a FIT, if someone wants to do that then it's a commercial enterprise and should be treated as such.

    No problem with a farmer who wants to put hundreds of solar panels in a field, but it's not really a micro generator

    There definitely needs to be more emphasis on energy storage, batteries and pumped hydro and similar. This would reduce our need for inefficient gas plants to be on standby for any shortfalls

    Hopefully as part of the climate action plan they hugely overhaul the planning processes for renewables, and the grid connection process. The ESB are pretty good at dragging their heels on grid connections and licenses

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • #104
    citizen6
    Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭citizen6


    The figure of 6kW is coming a lot in the consultation doc. Any chance they restrict FiT to installations with less than 6kWp?

    I'm planning an install of approx 6kWp (with 5kW inverter). I'm wondering if it would be worth going with say 5.8kWp rather than 6.1kWp to avoid being caught out.


  • #105
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    citizen6 wrote: »
    The figure of 6kW is coming a lot in the consultation doc. Any chance they restrict FiT to installations with less than 6kWp?

    I'm planning an install of approx 6kWp (with 5kW inverter). I'm wondering if it would be worth going with say 5.8kWp rather than 6.1kWp to avoid being caught out.

    They've defined microgeneration as anything upto 50kWp so I doubt they will exclude any installs from participating but they do seem to favour capping the payments somehow.

    You are second guessing a government department though, so its very much your call!


  • #106
    Geeyfds53573
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭Geeyfds53573


    citizen6 wrote: »
    The figure of 6kW is coming a lot in the consultation doc. Any chance they restrict FiT to installations with less than 6kWp?

    I'm planning an install of approx 6kWp (with 5kW inverter). I'm wondering if it would be worth going with say 5.8kWp rather than 6.1kWp to avoid being caught out.

    About to do the same and thinking the same, I may not have been able to get over 6 anyhow


  • #107
    buzz11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭buzz11


    Did I read somewhere that the EU directive is implemented in June...does that mean there will be a FIT scheme of some sort by then?


  • #108
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    buzz11 wrote: »
    Did I read somewhere that the EU directive is implemented in June...does that mean there will be a FIT scheme of some sort by then?

    I think it means Ireland have to have it transcribed into our law by then but it doesnt mean you'll immediately start getting a cheque in the post! :)

    Ultimately they have to get the system up and running and you'll need an export meter so you might have to wait in line to get that. Its not clear yet exactly what will happen but we should see some movement one way or the other by summer.


  • #109
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,731 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Ireland is always the last in the class. Last to implement the NCT, last to implement water charges. Oh wait.

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  • #110
    championc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭championc


    Last year, I exported 133kWh. Oh no, I missed out on about a fiver !!!

    I certainly expect to export much less this year after replacing my batteries, but my god, you'd need to have some amount of excess to make anything any way worthwhile


  • #111
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    unkel wrote: »
    Ireland is always the last in the class. Last to implement the NCT, last to implement water charges. Oh wait.

    First for the smoking ban to be fair

    And plastic bag tax

    Generally we're last on anything that involves the government giving away money, but first when it comes to increasing the tax base

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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  • #112
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,731 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    championc wrote: »
    you'd need to have some amount of excess to make anything any way worthwhile

    Let's say for simplicity sake you exported zero. And let's say as an investment you added another 4kwp array, then you'd export all of the production of that extra array, again for simplicity sake. That is about 4,000kWh in Dublin south facing. Let's say the fit is 9c. This will make you €360 per year

    4kwp is about 11 current panels of 360W. Let's say you can get these at about €115 incl VAT each, let's say you buy an inverter for €350 and materials for €200, and DIY this job. Total cost €1815

    Or a pay back period of just 5 years

    That's a superb investment in my book

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  • #113
    holdfast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,152 ✭✭✭holdfast


    Yes in simple payback that is 5 years. But simple payback is a blunt instrument. Some people have borrowing the money thus costing them more or get could have got high rate of interest return like a pension investment with 40%. Everything is a balanced versus the opportunity. Sorry playing the devil advocate there. But the best value is consuming it all.


  • #114
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭phester28


    So far im less than impressed. The PSO levey will go up over time to fund the FIT. So basically we all pay to pay ourselves (or the lucky few) back for electricity that would otherwise be purchased at wholesale prices onto the grid.

    Next we hear of needing a B2 BER. I have brought my house from a D to a C1. (the assessor would not help in any way in assessing what values the DEP software was giving so you are at the mercy of how competent the Assessor is But would need to do it all again and spend 10s of thousands to bring it up any further. The BER should have no bearing on FIT. There is already a requirement to qualify for the grant.


  • #115
    idc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 580 ✭✭✭idc


    holdfast wrote: »
    Sorry playing the devil advocate there. But the best value is consuming it all.

    The consultation does mention a 30 % limit on feed in to encourage self consumption.

    Likewise the use of BER is to ensure people spend money improving whole energy use in house ie heating/insulation and not just cover there house with as many panels as possible!!


  • #116
    mp3guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭mp3guy


    idc wrote: »
    The consultation does mention a 30 % limit on feed in to encourage self consumption.

    Likewise the use of BER is to ensure people spend money improving whole energy use in house ie heating/insulation and not just cover there house with as many panels as possible!!

    Covering your house in panels will exactly do this; inflate your BER. There's no cap.


  • #117
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭phester28


    Solar does not have a huge impact on your BER. In fact unless you can see the DEAP values (which the assessor wont give you) you dont know what (and to what magnitude), in their opinion is causing you to loose heat per each element of the house.


  • #118
    lightson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54 ✭✭lightson


    Em I fairly sure it took mine from a c to a b think that’s big enough jump. The impact could be relative to the size of your house etc


  • #119
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    lightson wrote: »
    Em I fairly sure it took mine from a c to a b think that’s big enough jump. The impact could be relative to the size of your house etc

    Solar PV panels or thermal panels? I thought only the thermal ones counted towards BER

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • #120
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭phester28


    No PV count alright,

    Mine went from C2 to C1 but the same BER assessor used his old figures from 7 years ago ( I think) and just updated the figures from the old to the new DEAP software. His recommendations to improve remained a copy of his old ones. Despite attic insulation changes and other improvements


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  • #121
    mp3guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭mp3guy


    phester28 wrote: »
    Solar does not have a huge impact on your BER. In fact unless you can see the DEAP values (which the assessor wont give you) you dont know what (and to what magnitude), in their opinion is causing you to loose heat per each element of the house.

    Went from B2 to A2. Know someone else who went from B3 to A3. It has a huge impact. See this post for more info https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115814863&postcount=33.

    Sounds like you had a grumpy assessor.


  • #122
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭phester28


    ok cool, My assessor is the Vice Secretary of BER Assessors. But it could be because my array size is only 2.4Kwp for an 80sq meter house. The lack of engagement is what annoys me


  • #123
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,656 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    phester28 wrote: »
    Solar does not have a huge impact on your BER. In fact unless you can see the DEAP values (which the assessor wont give you) you dont know what (and to what magnitude), in their opinion is causing you to loose heat per each element of the house.

    It's a fairly basic calculation that takes into account the orientation, angle and any shading. So 2.4kWh would be, at best, just over 2000 kWh of delivered energy. The BER is ultimately kWh per m2 so floor area of house will have a say in how big a contribution the PV makes to the BER. Not a BER assessor by the way.


  • #124
    mp3guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭mp3guy


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    It's a fairly basic calculation that takes into account the orientation, angle and any shading. So 2.4kWh would be, at best, just over 2000 kWh of delivered energy. The BER is ultimately kWh per m2 so floor area of house will have a say in how big a contribution the PV makes to the BER. Not a BER assessor by the way.

    This is essentially it but you get double the credit for the kWh you generate from PV because you don't incur transmission loss from a power station miles away through many transformers.


  • #125
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,402 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    C1 to B1 here.


  • #126
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,656 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    It's a fairly basic calculation that takes into account the orientation, angle and any shading. So 2.4kWh would be, at best, just over 2000 kWh of delivered energy. The BER is ultimately kWh per m2 so floor area of house will have a say in how big a contribution the PV makes to the BER. Not a BER assessor by the way.

    Should have finished that out.

    So it's 2062 delivered energy(best case) which is 4289 kWh primary energy which is what the BER is defined by. If you have a 100m2 house, the PV contribution is 42.89 kWh/m2/ur.
    If it's a 200m2 house, the 2.4kW installation contributes 21.44 kWh/m2/yr.

    That's how it plays out in DEAP....so it's simplistic to say it has a big impact or a small impact. The devil is in the detail.


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  • #127
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,656 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    unkel wrote: »
    Let's say for simplicity sake you exported zero. And let's say as an investment you added another 4kwp array, then you'd export all of the production of that extra array, again for simplicity sake. That is about 4,000kWh in Dublin south facing. Let's say the fit is 9c. This will make you €360 per year

    4kwp is about 11 current panels of 360W. Let's say you can get these at about €115 incl VAT each, let's say you buy an inverter for €350 and materials for €200, and DIY this job. Total cost €1815

    Or a pay back period of just 5 years

    That's a superb investment in my book

    Do you think it's realistically going to be 9c?

    I think that was the level of EI's microgen pilot but I can't see it being that high. 7c max is where I think it might fall


  • #128
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,731 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    Do you think it's realistically going to be 9c?

    I think that was the level of EI's microgen pilot but I can't see it being that high. 7c max is where I think it might fall

    Before the announcement I reckoned it was going to be about 5c, or whatever the wholesale rate was

    But as KCross explained, there will be a base payment (of something like that), but there will also be a premium paid on top of this. Nobody knows how much these will be, but I'd say 9c in total is as good a guess as anyone's. When the real figures come out, we can adjust above calculation

    Personally, I will likely increase my solar PV to avail of the FIT. Both as an investment but also as "the right thing to do" - my personal contribution to fight climate change and move to renewables

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  • #129
    Alf Veedersane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,656 ✭✭✭✭Alf Veedersane


    unkel wrote: »
    Before the announcement I reckoned it was going to be about 5c, or whatever the wholesale rate was

    But as KCross explained, there will be a base payment (of something like that), but there will also be a premium paid on top of this. Nobody knows how much these will be, but I'd say 9c in total is as good a guess as anyone's. When the real figures come out, we can adjust above calculation

    Personally, I will likely increase my solar PV to avail of the FIT. Both as an investment but also as "the right thing to do" - my personal contribution to fight climate change

    Sorry, had sorta skimmed through the thread a bit. Not questioning you....questioning my own thinking to see what I missed


  • #130
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭phester28


    Alf Veedersane wrote: »
    Should have finished that out.

    So it's 2062 delivered energy(best case) which is 4289 kWh primary energy which is what the BER is defined by. If you have a 100m2 house, the PV contribution is 42.89 kWh/m2/ur.
    If it's a 200m2 house, the 2.4kW installation contributes 21.44 kWh/m2/yr.

    That's how it plays out in DEAP....so it's simplistic to say it has a big impact or a small impact. The devil is in the detail.

    So I got 2.4Kwp east west

    BER values were 196.57 kWh/m²/yr back in 2013 and 153.36 kWh/m²/yr now

    So looks like he just amended the solar section (correctly). I just wish I new what elements to tackle to get the next 3kwh/m2/yr down


  • #131
    mp3guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭mp3guy


    phester28 wrote: »
    So looks like he just amended the solar section (correctly). I just wish I new what elements to tackle to get the next 3kwh/m2/yr down

    Close any open fireplaces permanently or with stoves. Replace bulbs with LEDs. Insulation as always, cavity pump etc... New boiler.


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  • #132
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    unkel wrote: »
    4kwp is about 11 current panels of 360W. Let's say you can get these at about €115 incl VAT each, let's say you buy an inverter for €350 and materials for €200, and DIY this job. Total cost €1815

    Or a pay back period of just 5 years

    That's a superb investment in my book

    "Materials" here I'm assuming covers roof hooks, stainless fixing screws, panel rails & joiners, panel clips, cable entry flashing, DC surge protection, RCBO, DC cable, DC isolator, AC isolator, trunking, AC cable, glands, sealants?
    A tad optimistic with €200 I think


  • #133
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,731 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Of course it's optimistic. Did you miss that the spirit of my post is a low budget scenario? Not for someone lazy who just clicks "buy it now" on the first website they came across? Instead for someone who does a bit of research, does a bit of negotiation? But yeah, even after that the €200 is still a tad optimistic, I grant you that.. Mind, I bought my brand new Solis 3.6kW dual MPPT inverter for GBP220 shipped. So you could save €100 there to spend on the materials, so then we are talking €300 ;)

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  • #134
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    I accept that, but no point giving people totally unrealistic expectations either.
    I scrimped and saved on my own install and got some great deals but still went over those kind of figures. At retail prices it would be multiples of that.
    Plus you also need to allow for a REC to connect and certify your inverter and no doubt €340 for the export meter:eek:


  • #135
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,731 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    air wrote: »
    I accept that, but no point giving people totally unrealistic expectations either.
    I scrimped and saved on my own install and got some great deals but still went over those kind of figures.

    Don't beat yourself up. I really do not want to come over as arrogant, but I am very good and / or lucky at getting the best possible prices. I missed my calling :( Have a look at my thread about buying my car in the EV forum
    air wrote: »
    you also need to allow for a REC to connect and certify your inverter

    Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough before. I am poor, or mediocre at best, at DIY. Not a chance I would have a go at connecting my systems to the grid myself! A REC connected my PV system to the grid. Another REC connected my battery inverter system to the grid.
    air wrote: »
    no doubt €340 for the export meter:eek:

    Are you joking? All houses in Ireland will get a smart meter for free over the next while.

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  • #136
    air
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,830 ✭✭✭air


    unkel wrote: »
    Don't beat yourself up. I really do not want to come over as arrogant, but I am very good and / or lucky at getting the best possible prices. I missed my calling :( Have a look at my thread about buying my car in the EV forum
    Don't worry, I'm well able to find a good deal myself. Your car dealing has no relevance here.
    I'd love to see your detail on how you mounted and installed 4kW of panels for 200 quid
    unkel wrote: »
    Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough before. I am poor, or mediocre at best, at DIY. Not a chance I would have a go at connecting my systems to the grid myself! A REC connected my PV system to the grid. Another REC connected my battery inverter system to the grid.
    Then you need to allow for even more labour costs for installation.
    unkel wrote: »
    Are you joking? All houses in Ireland will get a smart meter for free over the next while.
    That was the requirement for the previous microgeneration scheme, nothing would surprise me in this country.


  • #137
    Geeyfds53573
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭Geeyfds53573


    unkel wrote: »
    Don't beat yourself up. I really do not want to come over as arrogant, but I am very good and / or lucky at getting the best possible prices. I missed my calling :( Have a look at my thread about buying my car in the EV forum



    Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough before. I am poor, or mediocre at best, at DIY. Not a chance I would have a go at connecting my systems to the grid myself! A REC connected my PV system to the grid. Another REC connected my battery inverter system to the grid.



    Are you joking? All houses in Ireland will get a smart meter for free over the next while.



    Smart meter shows the export from my understanding at least someone posted how to get this detail up


  • #138
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Geeyfds53573 wrote: »
    Smart meter shows the export from my understanding at least someone posted how to get this detail up

    Well they mentioned in the paper that it's contingent on having smart meters installed, so that seems to indicate the smart meter is capable of measuring export

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • #139
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭phester28


    mp3guy wrote: »
    Close any open fireplaces permanently or with stoves. Replace bulbs with LEDs. Insulation as always, cavity pump etc... New boiler.

    All done long ago. Fire place, LED bulbs. Internal insulation as walls are solid. Argon filled double glazed. extension and floors through original house are passive standard. 300mm of aeroboard. With a thermally broken slab that floats from the walls. Attic is a bit tough to do properly as its a small space. But Ive raised the rafters and have 4" of fiberglass.

    Boiler and heating upgrades complete. There is nothing else I can do except external insulation which would cost over 10K and pay back a fraction of that over the next 10-20 years.

    And yes the smart meters that are being rolled out (for free) do show when your exporting but I remember if they totalise it yet. But that would be a software modification. I posted the instructions I got a while back on the meter fitted


  • #140
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,593 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    unkel wrote: »
    Don't beat yourself up. I really do not want to come over as arrogant ....

    You may not want to but it does occur like that, not just in this thread but right across boards which is surprising for a CMod.
    It could be construed as being all about how better you are than the rest of the folk here as we try improve our lot and share out expertise with others, without focussing on the "I". The "I" is redundant in modern relations and relationships

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #141
    MAULBROOK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭MAULBROOK


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    You may not want to but it does occur like that, not just in this thread but right across boards which is surprising for a CMod.
    It could be construed as being all about how better you are than the rest of the folk here as we try improve our lot and share out expertise with others, without focusing on the "I". The "I" is redundant in modern relations and relationships

    Thanks for calling this as its starting to look like a pissing contest as to WHO knows more.
    I personally have found this forum very helpful but one up man ship and who can piss higher is getting annoying.


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  • #142
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    So any chance we can get this thread back on topic? :)

    Out of curiosity, has anyone responded to the consultation?

    I made the point regarding maximum export being difficult to stay under when you have a high consumer house and said the amount should be raised and tied to a diminishing CEP. The more you export, the less of a return you get, until you're back to the market rate, basic supply and demand

    I also asked that energy storage like batteries and EVs with V2G capability be considered as a renewable energy source

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • #143
    mp3guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭mp3guy


    cruisey1987 wrote: »
    I also asked that energy storage like batteries and EVs with V2G capability be considered as a renewable energy source

    How do you justify this? What if you charge them up off a grid burning gas or coal? Unless you're suggesting people sell energy from their car battery after regen breaking it down a mountain.


  • #144
    buzz11
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 758 ✭✭✭buzz11


    Is it likely that the 6Kw micro-gen limit will be increased?


  • #145
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    mp3guy wrote: »
    How do you justify this? What if you charge them up off a grid burning gas or coal? Unless you're suggesting people sell energy from their car battery after regen breaking it down a mountain.


    It's justified because it'd never make financial sense to charge a battery from fossil fuel and sell it back.



    When demand is low then gas power stations are throttled to prevent them providing too much energy, so the concept of gas power being cheap doesn't exist. You can't buy 'cheap' gas power at one time and sell it back when energy is more expensive


    With wind and solar it makes sense because you can take power off the gridd when there's an oversupply (and by extension, cheap) and sell it back to the grid when demand is higher for a profit.


    And, since you're displacing energy which would be supplied by a gas power plant, you're saving some carbon emissions overall

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • #146
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    buzz11 wrote: »
    Is it likely that the 6Kw micro-gen limit will be increased?


    Probably not, but if people keep asking then ESB will have to provide some justifications

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • #147
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    genuine question, and apologies if this has already been answered, but isn't everyone going to be selling to the grid during the day when demand is relatively lower, and then buying in the evening when demand is high.

    From a supply balancing point of view would it be better to increase the subsidy for battery storage? (AIUI, currently batteries don't make sense from a payback perspective).


  • #148
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,930 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    loyatemu wrote: »
    genuine question, and apologies if this has already been answered, but isn't everyone going to be selling to the grid during the day when demand is relatively lower, and then buying in the evening when demand is high.

    From a supply balancing point of view would it be better to increase the subsidy for battery storage? (AIUI, currently batteries don't make sense from a payback perspective).


    Peak demand is in the evening when everyone is home and cooking dinner, watching TV, heating houese, etc.


    At night demand drops considerably while everyone is asleep, but the wind often blows more at night so generations from wind goes up, hence the big price drop at night time


    Domestic demand during the day is low, but demand from industry and offices is much higher, so houses with PV arrays will be selling power to these consumers


    Ideally for domestic renewables, you try to consume as much as you produce, so that's when batteries come in handy to store the energy for that evening peak


    You can make the payback for batteries a bit easier by charging them at night as well, this allows you to shift all of your consumption from the grid to night rates, effectively halving your electricity costs

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



  • #149
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    cruisey1987 wrote: »
    I made the point regarding maximum export being difficult to stay under when you have a high consumer house and said the amount should be raised and tied to a diminishing CEP. The more you export, the less of a return you get, until you're back to the market rate, basic supply and demand

    Isnt that somewhat contradictory though? If you have a high consumer house its more likely (not certain though) that you would be able to self consume it, which is what they are trying to encourage.... i.e. Your export limit is tied to the size of your array.
    cruisey1987 wrote: »
    I made the point regarding maximum export being difficult to stay under when you have a high consumer house and said the amount should be raised and tied to a diminishing CEP. The more you export, the less of a return you get, until you're back to the market rate, basic supply and demand

    Thats more admin though and makes it more confusing for end users to understand. Not that this document is easy to understand. :)

    Price certainty is important, I think, at least during the initial uptake where people are questioning if its worth it or not.

    cruisey1987 wrote: »
    I also asked that energy storage like batteries and EVs with V2G capability be considered as a renewable energy source

    They are not renewable though unless you can prove where the energy came from, which you cant.

    buzz11 wrote: »
    Is it likely that the 6Kw micro-gen limit will be increased?

    You can already go beyond 6kWp just that you have to jump through extra hoops to get permission from Eirgrid to connect up. They have to ensure the local infrastructure is good enough.

    Based on how this consulation is worded they have put alot of emphasis on self consumption and most houses would not be able to self consume the vast majority of an install that is bigger than 6kWp.

    So, my guess is that they wont change the current NC6 limits but you can still go bigger than 6kWp if you wish.


  • #150
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    loyatemu wrote: »
    genuine question, and apologies if this has already been answered, but isn't everyone going to be selling to the grid during the day when demand is relatively lower, and then buying in the evening when demand is high.

    Thats why the consultation is focussing on self consumption. They dont want a situation where people are covering their houses with panels and exporting "it all" and getting paid for it at someone else's expense.

    The idea is self consume and size your array accordingly and obviously you have to oversize the array to cover more of the autumn/winter months so the FiT will then take the resultant excess in the summer but the idea is that it would be relatively speaking small amounts of excess (<30%).
    loyatemu wrote: »
    From a supply balancing point of view would it be better to increase the subsidy for battery storage? (AIUI, currently batteries don't make sense from a payback perspective).

    The economics of that dont really stack up using current Li-ion tech in a domestic scenario, which you have said.

    We do need lots of storage though, but at the grid level on a massive scale, not individual 2kWh batteries at home. e.g. Turlough hill and Silvermines.

    cruisey1987 wrote: »
    You can make the payback for batteries a bit easier by charging them at night as well, this allows you to shift all of your consumption from the grid to night rates, effectively halving your electricity costs

    Its not quite that simple though. There are losses which make the gains quite small and you are degrading your battery with each cycle so its questionable with todays tech whether thats a sound idea at all. It has been discussed on the various SolarPV threads.


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  • #151
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 19,197 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    loyatemu wrote: »
    genuine question, and apologies if this has already been answered, but isn't everyone going to be selling to the grid during the day when demand is relatively lower, and then buying in the evening when demand is high.

    From a supply balancing point of view would it be better to increase the subsidy for battery storage? (AIUI, currently batteries don't make sense from a payback perspective).

    The ESB are planning a number of battery sites, reasonable assumption they can therefore store electricity I sell them at say, 2PM and then sell it on at say 6PM in Winter at a higher rate, let them worry about the losses


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