Public Consultation on a Micro-generation Support Scheme (MSS) in Ireland

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Should have finished that out.

So it's 2062 delivered energy(best case) which is 4289 kWh primary energy which is what the BER is defined by. If you have a 100m2 house, the PV contribution is 42.89 kWh/m2/ur.
If it's a 200m2 house, the 2.4kW installation contributes 21.44 kWh/m2/yr.

That's how it plays out in DEAP....so it's simplistic to say it has a big impact or a small impact. The devil is in the detail.

So I got 2.4Kwp east west

BER values were 196.57 kWh/m²/yr back in 2013 and 153.36 kWh/m²/yr now

So looks like he just amended the solar section (correctly). I just wish I new what elements to tackle to get the next 3kwh/m2/yr down

unkel wrote: »

Before the announcement I reckoned it was going to be about 5c, or whatever the wholesale rate was

But as KCross explained, there will be a base payment (of something like that), but there will also be a premium paid on top of this. Nobody knows how much these will be, but I'd say 9c in total is as good a guess as anyone's. When the real figures come out, we can adjust above calculation

Personally, I will likely increase my solar PV to avail of the FIT. Both as an investment but also as "the right thing to do" - my personal contribution to fight climate change

Sorry, had sorta skimmed through the thread a bit. Not questioning you....questioning my own thinking to see what I missed

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Do you think it's realistically going to be 9c?

I think that was the level of EI's microgen pilot but I can't see it being that high. 7c max is where I think it might fall

Before the announcement I reckoned it was going to be about 5c, or whatever the wholesale rate was

But as KCross explained, there will be a base payment (of something like that), but there will also be a premium paid on top of this. Nobody knows how much these will be, but I'd say 9c in total is as good a guess as anyone's. When the real figures come out, we can adjust above calculation

Personally, I will likely increase my solar PV to avail of the FIT. Both as an investment but also as "the right thing to do" - my personal contribution to fight climate change and move to renewables

unkel wrote: »

Let's say for simplicity sake you exported zero. And let's say as an investment you added another 4kwp array, then you'd export all of the production of that extra array, again for simplicity sake. That is about 4,000kWh in Dublin south facing. Let's say the fit is 9c. This will make you €360 per year

4kwp is about 11 current panels of 360W. Let's say you can get these at about €115 incl VAT each, let's say you buy an inverter for €350 and materials for €200, and DIY this job. Total cost €1815

Or a pay back period of just 5 years

That's a superb investment in my book

Do you think it's realistically going to be 9c?

I think that was the level of EI's microgen pilot but I can't see it being that high. 7c max is where I think it might fall

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

It's a fairly basic calculation that takes into account the orientation, angle and any shading. So 2.4kWh would be, at best, just over 2000 kWh of delivered energy. The BER is ultimately kWh per m2 so floor area of house will have a say in how big a contribution the PV makes to the BER. Not a BER assessor by the way.

Should have finished that out.

So it's 2062 delivered energy(best case) which is 4289 kWh primary energy which is what the BER is defined by. If you have a 100m2 house, the PV contribution is 42.89 kWh/m2/ur.
If it's a 200m2 house, the 2.4kW installation contributes 21.44 kWh/m2/yr.

That's how it plays out in DEAP....so it's simplistic to say it has a big impact or a small impact. The devil is in the detail.

Mickeroo

C1 to B1 here.

mp3guy

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

It's a fairly basic calculation that takes into account the orientation, angle and any shading. So 2.4kWh would be, at best, just over 2000 kWh of delivered energy. The BER is ultimately kWh per m2 so floor area of house will have a say in how big a contribution the PV makes to the BER. Not a BER assessor by the way.

This is essentially it but you get double the credit for the kWh you generate from PV because you don't incur transmission loss from a power station miles away through many transformers.

phester28 wrote: »

Solar does not have a huge impact on your BER. In fact unless you can see the DEAP values (which the assessor wont give you) you dont know what (and to what magnitude), in their opinion is causing you to loose heat per each element of the house.

It's a fairly basic calculation that takes into account the orientation, angle and any shading. So 2.4kWh would be, at best, just over 2000 kWh of delivered energy. The BER is ultimately kWh per m2 so floor area of house will have a say in how big a contribution the PV makes to the BER. Not a BER assessor by the way.

ok cool, My assessor is the Vice Secretary of BER Assessors. But it could be because my array size is only 2.4Kwp for an 80sq meter house. The lack of engagement is what annoys me

mp3guy

phester28 wrote: »

Solar does not have a huge impact on your BER. In fact unless you can see the DEAP values (which the assessor wont give you) you dont know what (and to what magnitude), in their opinion is causing you to loose heat per each element of the house.

Went from B2 to A2. Know someone else who went from B3 to A3. It has a huge impact. See this post for more info https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=115814863&postcount=33.

Sounds like you had a grumpy assessor.

No PV count alright,

Mine went from C2 to C1 but the same BER assessor used his old figures from 7 years ago ( I think) and just updated the figures from the old to the new DEAP software. His recommendations to improve remained a copy of his old ones. Despite attic insulation changes and other improvements

lightson wrote: »

Em I fairly sure it took mine from a c to a b think that’s big enough jump. The impact could be relative to the size of your house etc

Solar PV panels or thermal panels? I thought only the thermal ones counted towards BER

lightson

Em I fairly sure it took mine from a c to a b think that’s big enough jump. The impact could be relative to the size of your house etc

Solar does not have a huge impact on your BER. In fact unless you can see the DEAP values (which the assessor wont give you) you dont know what (and to what magnitude), in their opinion is causing you to loose heat per each element of the house.

mp3guy

idc wrote: »

The consultation does mention a 30 % limit on feed in to encourage self consumption.

Likewise the use of BER is to ensure people spend money improving whole energy use in house ie heating/insulation and not just cover there house with as many panels as possible!!

Covering your house in panels will exactly do this; inflate your BER. There's no cap.

idc

holdfast wrote: »

Sorry playing the devil advocate there. But the best value is consuming it all.

The consultation does mention a 30 % limit on feed in to encourage self consumption.

Likewise the use of BER is to ensure people spend money improving whole energy use in house ie heating/insulation and not just cover there house with as many panels as possible!!

So far im less than impressed. The PSO levey will go up over time to fund the FIT. So basically we all pay to pay ourselves (or the lucky few) back for electricity that would otherwise be purchased at wholesale prices onto the grid.

Next we hear of needing a B2 BER. I have brought my house from a D to a C1. (the assessor would not help in any way in assessing what values the DEP software was giving so you are at the mercy of how competent the Assessor is But would need to do it all again and spend 10s of thousands to bring it up any further. The BER should have no bearing on FIT. There is already a requirement to qualify for the grant.

holdfast

Yes in simple payback that is 5 years. But simple payback is a blunt instrument. Some people have borrowing the money thus costing them more or get could have got high rate of interest return like a pension investment with 40%. Everything is a balanced versus the opportunity. Sorry playing the devil advocate there. But the best value is consuming it all.

championc wrote: »

you'd need to have some amount of excess to make anything any way worthwhile

Let's say for simplicity sake you exported zero. And let's say as an investment you added another 4kwp array, then you'd export all of the production of that extra array, again for simplicity sake. That is about 4,000kWh in Dublin south facing. Let's say the fit is 9c. This will make you €360 per year

4kwp is about 11 current panels of 360W. Let's say you can get these at about €115 incl VAT each, let's say you buy an inverter for €350 and materials for €200, and DIY this job. Total cost €1815

Or a pay back period of just 5 years

That's a superb investment in my book

unkel wrote: »

Ireland is always the last in the class. Last to implement the NCT, last to implement water charges. Oh wait.

First for the smoking ban to be fair

And plastic bag tax

Generally we're last on anything that involves the government giving away money, but first when it comes to increasing the tax base

championc

Last year, I exported 133kWh. Oh no, I missed out on about a fiver !!!

I certainly expect to export much less this year after replacing my batteries, but my god, you'd need to have some amount of excess to make anything any way worthwhile

Ireland is always the last in the class. Last to implement the NCT, last to implement water charges. Oh wait.

KCross

buzz11 wrote: »

Did I read somewhere that the EU directive is implemented in June...does that mean there will be a FIT scheme of some sort by then?

I think it means Ireland have to have it transcribed into our law by then but it doesnt mean you'll immediately start getting a cheque in the post!

Ultimately they have to get the system up and running and you'll need an export meter so you might have to wait in line to get that. Its not clear yet exactly what will happen but we should see some movement one way or the other by summer.

buzz11

Did I read somewhere that the EU directive is implemented in June...does that mean there will be a FIT scheme of some sort by then?

Geeyfds53573

citizen6 wrote: »

The figure of 6kW is coming a lot in the consultation doc. Any chance they restrict FiT to installations with less than 6kWp?

I'm planning an install of approx 6kWp (with 5kW inverter). I'm wondering if it would be worth going with say 5.8kWp rather than 6.1kWp to avoid being caught out.

About to do the same and thinking the same, I may not have been able to get over 6 anyhow

KCross

citizen6 wrote: »

The figure of 6kW is coming a lot in the consultation doc. Any chance they restrict FiT to installations with less than 6kWp?

I'm planning an install of approx 6kWp (with 5kW inverter). I'm wondering if it would be worth going with say 5.8kWp rather than 6.1kWp to avoid being caught out.

They've defined microgeneration as anything upto 50kWp so I doubt they will exclude any installs from participating but they do seem to favour capping the payments somehow.

You are second guessing a government department though, so its very much your call!

citizen6

The figure of 6kW is coming a lot in the consultation doc. Any chance they restrict FiT to installations with less than 6kWp?

I'm planning an install of approx 6kWp (with 5kW inverter). I'm wondering if it would be worth going with say 5.8kWp rather than 6.1kWp to avoid being caught out.

slave1 wrote: »

LOL, wish I was at the 10MW level (I think MW is 1,000kW?), with 2 EVs and normal working conditions I'm 24MW a year, immersion 365days, storage heater Nov-March then usual domestic appliances and thirsty home cinema.

While FIT is nice I never factored it given Ireland's inept attitude and my full faith that the ESB will do everything in their power to render it financially meaningless.
We should be matching our PV arrays to personal consumption and avoiding excess production IMHO, then FIT is irrelevant.

If FIT, then net metering as early incentive as we need as much sustainable electricity production as possible.
I've no electrical background but can see the need to move away from 60amp houses to 100amp, three phase is common enough in other countries but jazuz don't have that in Ireland, "sure what would you be doing that for" attitude.

Ireland/ESB want to hold onto old ways, ESB need to move away from restrictive attitudes and move to open arms, we need large battery banks like Australia so excess becomes null and void.
Blanket release of Planning Restrictions, boost the EV sector.
I could go on, but what do I know

Okay...buy a heat pump, it'll save you some electricity at least

I mostly agree with what you're saying, self consumption is the best way for small generators, a FIT is best used to give a better ROI and to stop renewable energy being wasted.

I don't really agree with people who intend to make money from a FIT, if someone wants to do that then it's a commercial enterprise and should be treated as such.

No problem with a farmer who wants to put hundreds of solar panels in a field, but it's not really a micro generator

There definitely needs to be more emphasis on energy storage, batteries and pumped hydro and similar. This would reduce our need for inefficient gas plants to be on standby for any shortfalls

Hopefully as part of the climate action plan they hugely overhaul the planning processes for renewables, and the grid connection process. The ESB are pretty good at dragging their heels on grid connections and licenses

unkel wrote: »

It's sad really. Almost 100 years ago the ESB were a very progressive organisation with a visionary leader. Look at them now.

Yeah they still very much have that mentality of doing as little as possible and claim it's because they're underfunded