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Public Consultation on a Micro-generation Support Scheme (MSS) in Ireland

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  • Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭ drdidlittle


    Devil will be in the detail. Feed in rate is what we all need to know. Knowing the way Ireland works will be looking at 2c /Kwh


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 31,017 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭ Mickeroo




  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭ sphinxicus


    The new microgeneration support scheme is being designed to provide a route to market for citizens and communities which will allow them to generate their own renewable electricity, such as from solar panels on their roofs, “and receive a fair price when they sell the excess into the grid”

    Will be interesting to see what the definition of receiving "a fair price" will be. I could see there being a larger uptake in solar installs (sans battery) if this goes forward with a good FIT. Wonder will they remove the install grant when the FIT becomes available.

    We got out "smart" meter installed the other week so that's one step in the right direction for our place anyway


  • Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭ harderthanf


    sphinxicus wrote: »
    We got out "smart" meter installed the other week so that's one step in the right direction for our place anyway


    Does it break down feed in details on it easily? I've no exposure to them to date.


  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭ phester28


    If I'm reading this right then its not for the individual house to be feeding in. Only communities and businesses. That is what the Greens were pushing over the last few years too.

    I would call it regressive and anticompetitive if it turns out to prevent the average consumer who does meet a certain threshold

    Edit I've just re-read and it does say Citizens, so hopefully I was wrong. During last year the greens were only talking about group schemes and businesses So I though they were following the same line


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  • Registered Users Posts: 107 ✭✭ sphinxicus


    phester28 wrote: »
    If I'm reading this right then its not for the individual house to be feeding in. Only communities and businesses. That is what the Greens were pushing over the last few years too.

    I would call it regressive and anticompetitive if it turns out to prevent the average consumer who does meet a certain threshold

    Edit I've just re-read and it does say Citizens, so hopefully I was wrong. During last year the greens were only talking about group schemes and businesses So I though they were following the same line


    I've read it differently. To quote from the doc here


    The actions to develop micro-generation policy will assess these and other options. It should be noted that micro-generation is a means to increase citizen participation in the energy transition through the generation of renewable electricity for self-consumption and the export of excess electricity generated to the grid. It can be a driver for engaging citizens in further energy efficiency investments in their homes and businesses.


    That going hand in hand with the fact they are rolling out smart meters would suggest that they are preparing for individual homes to avail of this. One can hope anyway :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 407 ✭✭ phester28


    I hope your right. Smart meters do have the capacity for net metering but its primary focus was to remote meter read using gsm

    Just for everyone:

    here is the way to use/view your smart meter:

    I enquired from the esb and here is what I got in response.
    As discussed, the straightforward way of knowing when you are exporting is to use the Voltage & Phase current indications located on the bottom left hand side of the display. The L1 indicates that voltage of greater than 160VAC is present and the arrow indicate the current flow direction. The arrow is visible on loads greater than 2.3W. See examples below of the indication in both import and export states.

    The total kWh exported can be found in the A- register located with 7 pushes of the LHS push button





    Here are the commands to interact with the interface on the smart meter.
    on the LCD
    When you see L1+ (arrow pointing right) the meter is importing from the network
    When you see L1- (arrow pointing left) the meter is exporting from the network

    Date/Time Display
    Press the left pushbutton to select the time/date screen. The first screen shows the time, the second screen shows the date. The screens alternate every 5 seconds.
    A+ Screen
    Press the left pushbutton again to select the A+ display. This is the total reading.
    This is the reading required by all MCC01 customers.
    A+ T1 Screen
    Press the left pushbutton again to select the T1 display. This is the night reading.
    The T1 indication will flash between T1 and A+ in the upper right corner while showing this reading.
    A+ T2 Screen
    Press the left pushbutton again to select the T2 display. This is the day reading.
    The T2 indication will flash between T2 and A+ in the upper right corner while showing this reading.
    A+ T3 Screen
    Press the left pushbutton again to select the T3 display. This is the peak reading.
    The T3 indication will flash between T3 and A+ in the upper right corner while showing this reading.
    LCD Test Screen
    Press the left pushbutton again to select the LCD screen test display. All segments of the LCD screen now flash
    A + Screen
    Press the left pushbutton again to select the A- display. This is the total active energy export register
    R+ Screen
    Press the left pushbutton again to select the R+ display. This is the total reactive energy imported.
    R- Screen
    Press the left pushbutton again to select the R- display. This is the total reactive energy exported.

    And this is the link to the Kamstrup Omnipower meter which the Smart metering project are installing.
    Data sheet for OMIPOWER meter. (Please note :ESB is using the ST version of the meter)
    https://products.kamstrup.com/download.php?uid=5162b47e9a3ff


  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭ idc


    phester28 wrote: »
    I hope your right. Smart meters do have the capacity for net metering but its primary focus was to remote meter read using gsm


    Out of curiosity does your smart meter handle the current day/night rate or are you on standard 24h metering.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,992 Mod ✭✭✭✭ slave1


    It's quite simple really, to properly incentivize the population we need to maintain the PV panel grants and do away with the battery grant.
    When it comes to FIT it needs to be Net Basis, for every kw you export you get credit with your supplier for any kw you import, crude but simple and fair as fair can be...


  • Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭ idc


    I have not yet read all the docs on the government site but as this is a consultation each and every PV home owner should write with concerns / requests or whatever is required to push this in the direction that home PV owners want.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,177 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    I see this in the docs
    "The Government has set a target of a B2 BER rating for supports under the National Home Retrofit Scheme and there is minimum BER B requirement for commercial and public buildings in other grant supported schemes. The MSS will need to align with these minimum requirements."

    That reads to me that regardless of the feedback they will insist on your providing proof that you have a B rating on your house before you will be eligible for FiT. That will catch the DIY'ers.


    Interesting one here also...
    "The new micro-generation scheme will need to be aligned with the specifications for micro- generation under the EU regulatory framework. In particular, the recast Renewable Energy Directive (REDII) will ensure owners of micro-generation are paid the market rate for the electricity they export to the grid."

    What would market rate equate to since that fluctuates at the wholesale level. I presume they dont mean consumer market rate?!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,911 ✭✭✭ mp3guy


    Pat Kenny show today at 2:28:00 Eamon Ryan lets B3 slip as the minimum BER required https://www.newstalk.com/listen-back.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,177 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    One of the statements in the consultation is that this option is being considered and they are asking for feedback on it...

    A minimum rate, proposed to be set by the CRU, will be made available based on the average Day Ahead Market (DAM) wholesale electricity price


    Anyone know what that would mean in real terms?

    I know day ahead wholesale prices vary wildly and even go negative but they mention "average"... is the average known somewhere?


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    KCross wrote: »
    One of the statements in the consultation is that this option is being considered and they are asking for feedback on it...

    A minimum rate, proposed to be set by the CRU, will be made available based on the average Day Ahead Market (DAM) wholesale electricity price


    Anyone know what that would mean in real terms?

    I know day ahead wholesale prices vary wildly and even go negative but they mention "average"... is the average known somewhere?

    https://www.cru.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/CRU20089-Energy-and-Water-Monitoring-Report-for-2019.pdf

    This is the best I can find.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,177 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    MAXFANTANA wrote: »

    Perfect. The average wholesale price from that report are reported as:

    2017 €47/MWh
    2018 €63/MWh
    2019 €50/MWh

    So, if you were to take that as the minimum it would be ~5c/kWh


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,127 ✭✭✭ cruizer101


    sphinxicus wrote: »
    Wonder will they remove the install grant when the FIT becomes available.

    I'm wondering this too, might need to make a move on getting some PV.
    slave1 wrote: »
    When it comes to FIT it needs to be Net Basis, for every kw you export you get credit with your supplier for any kw you import, crude but simple and fair as fair can be...

    Not really though because a kWh at midday that you export is far less valuable than a kWh you import at peak load at 6pm say.

    In a way the FIT should vary throughout that day, and I think with smart meters it should be possible, but I doubt it will happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,177 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    cruizer101 wrote: »
    In a way the FIT should vary throughout that day, and I think with smart meters it should be possible, but I doubt it will happen.

    They want to set a minimum price to give some certainty rather than following wholesale prices. See above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ Tradnuts


    mp3guy wrote: »
    Pat Kenny show today aat 2:28:00 Eamon Ryan lets B3 slip as the minimum BER required https://www.newstalk.com/listen-back.

    How horrible and typical.
    They will give you the solar grant if it brings your home up to C2, but only give the FIT if you are a B3 or better.

    Surely this should be a C2 min for the FiT!
    I understand that they want people to upgrade and retrofit their homes, but a B3 is difficult to achieve when you reply on oil heating. You do your best and install solar to bring it to a C2 and then you still don't meet the FIT requiements!
    Infuriating! :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭ graememk


    If it's true the BER rating is ridiculous for a FIT.

    The two aren't related at all.

    Solar doesn't heat your house* and on the days that you would be exporting.. you won't be using heat anyway

    *(You could via a resistive load with an eddi/or with monitoring and smart plugs)


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,177 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    graememk wrote: »
    If it's true the BER rating is ridiculous for a FIT.

    The two aren't related at all.

    They arent related. Their stated reasoning is that they want people to first focus their finances on improving their BER and then look at Solar after that. Bang for the buck so to speak.

    e.g. If someone has €5k to spend and is in a 80s bungalow with a crap BER they want that person to spend the money on insulation first before putting up Solar PV with a view to "making money on FiT".

    You can argue against that thought process and thats what the consultation is for!... at the moment its all just proposals.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,911 ✭✭✭ mp3guy


    graememk wrote: »
    If it's true the BER rating is ridiculous for a FIT.

    The two aren't related at all.

    Solar doesn't heat your house* and on the days that you would be exporting.. you won't be using heat anyway

    *(You could via a resistive load with an eddi/or with monitoring and smart plugs)

    BER is just an outdated metric that needs to be redesigned. It was introduced in the days of oil boilers and CFL bulbs. Trying to "tack on" the consideration of heat pumps, solar PV and EV power usage just doesn't fit, hence why you can artificially inflate a BER with your PV.
    KCross wrote: »
    They arent related. Their stated reasoning is that they want people to first focus their finances on improving their BER and then look at Solar after that. Bang for the buck so to speak.

    e.g. If someone has €5k to spend and is in a 80s bungalow with a crap BER they want that person to spend the money on insulation first before putting up Solar PV with a view to "making money on FiT".

    This does make sense from a carbon perspective. People with poor BER houses heating with oil or gas, will cut their carbon by investing that €5k in insulation etc... rather than reducing their usage from a grid which is on a continuous path to de-carbonization.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭ graememk


    KCross wrote: »
    up Solar PV with a view to "making money on FiT".

    You could see the ads now,.. and the sales pitches!!

    Although you'd never make money with a fit.

    I done napkin math on a theoretical pv array on an outfarm, full 6kw (power used is super low either lights or a well pump).

    The pv would cover the line rental and our current annual usage - just about.

    Payoff was about 15 years. Before we would "make money"


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,177 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    graememk wrote: »
    You could see the ads now,.. and the sales pitches!!

    Although you'd never make money with a fit.

    I done napkin math on a theoretical pv array on an outfarm, full 6kw (power used is super low either lights or a well pump).

    The pv would cover the line rental and our current annual usage - just about.

    Payoff was about 15 years. Before we would "make money"

    They seem to be trying to limit that use case as well as they want to cap the FiT to 30% of the generation.
    i.e. They want to ensure that people are sizing the arrays for self consumption and not just plastering the roof and the garden with panels in an effort to make money.

    I dont know how they would actually tell whether you breached the 30% or not. The smart meter wont know how much you generated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭ graememk


    Had a look at the document

    Seems to be chat about a base tariff and a premium tariff for installs after the 30th june
    with a C rating on that. - maybe the SEAI grant will be gone?

    New houses will still need a B2?

    Pulled a few things from the doc
    The high level emerging options are:
    1. Implementation of a proposed Clean Export Guarantee (CEG) tariff for excess
    electricity exported to the grid from renewables self-consumers and renewable energy
    communities that reflects the fair market value of the electricity, aligned to the requirements
    of Article 21 Clause 2 (d) of the Renewable Energy Directive (EU/ 2018/2001). A minimum
    rate, proposed to be set by the CRU, will be made available based on the average Day
    Ahead Market (DAM) wholesale electricity price and will be the same across all
    technologies.
    2. Additional supports will be offered for new micro-generation technologies installed
    after June 30th 2020 through a fixed Clean Export Premium Tariff rate each for
    domestic and non-domestic consumers for the excess electricity exported to the grid.
    Applicants wishing to avail of the CEP will need to meet a minimum post-works
    BER requirement in order to ensure an energy efficiency first principle is achieved.
    Occupied buildings will need to achieve a BER C rating. The minimum BER rating
    for the MSS will be increased over time to align with other Government energy
    efficiency retrofit programmes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 169 ✭✭ Tradnuts


    I’m gonna need a bigger battery... ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10 KerrAvon


    Quote:
    Applicants wishing to avail of the CEP will need to meet a minimum post-works
    BER requirement in order to ensure an energy efficiency first principle is achieved.
    Occupied buildings will need to achieve a BER C rating. The minimum BER rating
    for the MSS will be increased over time to align with other Government energy
    efficiency retrofit programmes.

    Does that mean you can use a shed roof and not have the BER requirement?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭ graememk


    It seems that the BER requirements is for the Clean Export Premium (CEP), and also thats on the 30% limit on export too

    There is also the Clean Export Guarantee (CEG) tariff that will be available to everyone? and thats on the average wholesale rate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,177 ✭✭✭✭ KCross


    I’d be surprised if any domestic install will be exempt from BER. Bear in mind it will be tied to your MPRN and that building is what will require the BER, not the garage the panels are on

    What actual BER they settle on is up for debate. B2 is mentioned. Minister Ryan mentioned B3 on newstalk today. And there is mention of it starting at one value and being increased over time.

    It would make sense though that it would at least align with what has been imposed by the existing SEAI grant (C3, I think) and reward those that have already taken the leap of faith under that system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 199 ✭✭ minnow


    According to this tweet the maximum domestic system for FIT is only 3kW. That's very low.

    https://twitter.com/EnergyInIreland/status/1349665295317815297?s=19


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,911 ✭✭✭ mp3guy


    minnow wrote: »
    According to this tweet the maximum domestic system for FIT is only 3kW. That's very low.

    Seems like misinformation, just some random number pulled out of context from the full document.

    One of the goals mentioned was removing the red tape around microgeneration from sources that are >11kW and <50kW.


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