DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

Mellor · 28-02-2008 12:45am

sinnerboy wrote: »

disagree Mellor . I believe HRV also prevents heat loss by creating indirect contact between internal and external . It 's not only about recovering heat

Missed that comment, I'd consider that prevention of heat loss as an extension of the heat recovery function. In fact, everything it does could be considered prevention (or reduction more correctly) of heat loss.

ircoha · 28-02-2008 11:53am

sydthebeat wrote: »

it wouldnt be a nixer as you would/should have to have PI insurance behind you.

BER assessments will mostly be done by the inspecting / certifying engineer / architect on new houses from July onwards.
The market you could possibly aim at would be the 'existing housing stock' market at point of sale or rent.

the costs you are talking about covering are €2000 plus for the course, €1000 registering fee, €25 for each BER applied....

plus AFAIK an annual fee of 500 euro plus vat to SEI

sinnerboy · 28-02-2008 12:50pm

Mellor wrote: »

Missed that comment, I'd consider that prevention of heat loss as an extension of the heat recovery function. In fact, everything it does could be considered prevention (or reduction more correctly) of heat loss.

I Think we are agreeing Mellor ...

to clarify HRV has 2 effects - direct and indirect

1. Direct - HRV recovers heat from heated internal air and

2. indirect - because to used HRV properly , open fire , trickle vents and wall vents are omitted , they ( the open fire , trickle vents and wall vents ) will not be present to cool that internal air

BER _ QS · 28-02-2008 2:02pm

Hi. i'm a QS working for a residential developer and have recently received my FETAC cert to allow me to register with SEI as a registered BER assessor but to be honest don't think i'll bother just yet and hlold onto my €1,000 for another while as there doesn't seem to be much of an uptake on the BER assessments yet.

As i say i work for a residential development company and we have had BER assessments carried out on the site we are working on currently although is was not required as planning permission had been granted prior to the requirement dates, however we got it done as we thought it might come in useful as a marketing tool to be used in the selling of the houses but absolutely no-one has asked for a BER cert yet and the estate agent selling the houses on behalf of my employer looks at you as if you have 2 heads when mentioning a BER cert.

sinnerboy · 28-02-2008 2:04pm

you are in very good position to use your training well . even if you NEVER issue a cert yourself

point of learning is not to simply issue the cert

you can make very informed decisions now on specification choices for your company

anyway you CANT issue certs as an employee of a company where that company is selling the product - SI 666 2006 will prohibit this - assessors have to be independent

BER _ QS · 28-02-2008 2:55pm

Hi, yeah I'm aware that as an employee i cannot issue certs for houses constructed by my employer and i've already had a similar discussion with our architect who is also in the process of becoming a BER assessor and who thinks that he'll be able to issue certs for schemes he has designed but he doesn't seem to believe me that he cannot. i think he thought i was trying to mislead him so i'm afraid he's going to have to find out for himself elsewhere.

The resaon i undertook the course was partly for it being advantageous to have knowledge and understanding of the process should i continue to work for a housebuilder aswell as having an add-on service i could provide should i opt to go work for myself offering QS's services.

At this stage i'm starting to think i might never actually issue a cert but i'm still glad i did the course as i found it extremely informative and definitley worth have an understanding of it and i must admit with the measurement of volumes and areas etc i think it ideally suited for someone with a QS background.

sinnerboy · 28-02-2008 3:04pm

BER _ QS wrote: »

Hi, yeah I'm aware that as an employee i cannot issue certs for houses constructed by my employer and i've already had a similar discussion with our architect who is also in the process of becoming a BER assessor and who thinks that he'll be able to issue certs for schemes he has designed but he doesn't seem to believe me that he cannot. .

During the course I attended this discussion arose with me + 3 other archies . , together with the course tutor . consensus was that as the designer ( who admittedly receives a fee ) you are not in the same position as a vendor . And so an architect can issue a BER cert on his/her own design .

BER _ QS wrote: »

with the measurement of volumes and areas etc i think it ideally suited for someone with a QS background.

Agree with that , you would have an inherent strength there . But also with your handle on costs you are in a great position to manipulate specifications ( building fabric + m+e installations )

I would go so far as to say that of all the building professions , I think QS + BER go together really well .

( any estate agents on your course ? )

sydthebeat · 28-02-2008 3:05pm

BER _ QS wrote: »

Hi, yeah I'm aware that as an employee i cannot issue certs for houses constructed by my employer and i've already had a similar discussion with our architect who is also in the process of becoming a BER assessor and who thinks that he'll be able to issue certs for schemes he has designed but he doesn't seem to believe me that he cannot. i think he thought i was trying to mislead him so i'm afraid he's going to have to find out for himself elsewhere.

The resaon i undertook the course was partly for it being advantageous to have knowledge and understanding of the process should i continue to work for a housebuilder aswell as having an add-on service i could provide should i opt to go work for myself offering QS's services.

At this stage i'm starting to think i might never actually issue a cert but i'm still glad i did the course as i found it extremely informative and definitley worth have an understanding of it and i must admit with the measurement of volumes and areas etc i think it ideally suited for someone with a QS background.

an architect does not have any material financial interest in the outcome of teh assessment and therefore can carry out assessments on schemes/ dwellings they have designed, sepcified and supervised themselves.

you, on the other hand, have a direct material financial interest in the outcome if you are an employee of the firm that gains financially from a favourable outcome... therefore if you do want to do BERs on your companies dwellings you need to declare it to teh SEI... its unlikely that they would accept it though.

read this:
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1337&docID=1254
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1157&docID=-1

BER _ QS · 28-02-2008 5:42pm

oops. obviously i don't know everything afterall lol. thanks for setting me straight.

no sinnerboy, don't think there was any estate agents on course. a few QS's, a couple of M & E services guys, a couple of Architects and a good few non construction related guys who were in it to make their first million. also a few people from solar energy type companies.

sinnerboy · 28-02-2008 6:06pm

BER _ QS wrote: »

non construction related guys who were in it to make their first million.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D , wiping tears from my eyes ....

gsxr1 · 28-02-2008 7:17pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

an architect does not have any material financial interest in the outcome of teh assessment and therefore can carry out assessments on schemes/ dwellings they have designed, sepcified and supervised themselves.

you, on the other hand, have a direct material financial interest in the outcome if you are an employee of the firm that gains financially from a favourable outcome... therefore if you do want to do BERs on your companies dwellings you need to declare it to teh SEI... its unlikely that they would accept it though.

read this:
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1337&docID=1254
http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1157&docID=-1

wow.

I was going to ask my employer to sponsor my BER coarse. Guess there is no point in that after reading that link.

sinnerboy · 28-02-2008 7:22pm

gsxr1 wrote: »

wow.

I was going to ask my employer to sponsor my BER coarse. Guess there is no point in that after reading that link.

No - go for it . If you train up you will be useful to your company . you can still assess / advise them even if you can't issue labels for them

Good way to move "off the tools " for you .

with your construction knowledge and experience you would make a better assessor then some who were on my course ....

don't sell yourself short - GO FOR IT

gsxr1 · 28-02-2008 11:11pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

No - go for it . If you train up you will be useful to your company . you can still assess / advise them even if you can't issue labels for them

Good way to move "off the tools " for you .

with your construction knowledge and experience you would make a better assessor then some who were on my course ....

don't sell yourself short - GO FOR IT

Thank you for your encouragement.

I have spent the last hour or so reading over this website

http://www.chevrontraining.ie/?gclid=CNnBvt21vpECFSUnEAodYwtrOA

The online coarse seems like a step in the right direction. Although an ECDL coarse to familiarize myself with MS Excel would be the first step.

I think the need for BER assessors for Existing housing and rental market shall be massive. Since it does not start till the end of the year it give me plenty of time to prepare.

It would be hard to speculate but after reading, it would seem this would not be a full time occupation. Maybe a side job or Saturday work depending on how you set up your strategic alliances with estate agents .

Mellor · 29-02-2008 10:11am

sinnerboy wrote: »

I Think we are agreeing Mellor ...

to clarify HRV has 2 effects - direct and indirect

1. Direct - HRV recovers heat from heated internal air and

2. indirect - because to used HRV properly , open fire , trickle vents and wall vents are omitted , they ( the open fire , trickle vents and wall vents ) will not be present to cool that internal air

Yeah, on the same page. I was considering the second part as under the heat recovery. Can't have one without the other (actually you can if its not done right I suppose)

A third minor benefit might be that breaks in insulation due to 225 vents are reduced to the size of duct required. Every little helps.

sinnerboy · 29-02-2008 7:29pm

gsxr1 wrote: »

The online coarse seems like a step in the right direction. Although an ECDL coarse to familiarize myself with MS Excel would be the first step.

I think the need for BER assessors for Existing housing and rental market shall be massive. Since it does not start till the end of the year it give me plenty of time to prepare.

It would be hard to speculate but after reading, it would seem this would not be a full time occupation. Maybe a side job or Saturday work depending on how you set up your strategic alliances with estate agents .

the online course is pretty tough . you can't beat the "classroom" environment - you learn almost as much from tea time / lunchtime chats with others as from the formal instruction . I would book a weeks leave if you have to .

I did a week full time course. It was not easy - not putting you off - give it your full attention and focus and you will be fine

Getting to grips with Excell would be useful .

I think you said you were at homebond / citywest ? Remember SEI said
Estimated no. of assessors needed - 2000
No. qualified now - 800
No. registered now - 250

I believe the no. required is a gross under estimation ( think - all buildings to be sold OR LET from Jan next will need a cert )

It could potentially see you in full time (self) employment.

Chimpster · 29-02-2008 9:34pm

I qualified last summer and registered straight away. I sat on it for a while and then put out a few feelers among some people I knew in the industry. There is work there at present as some of the architects/engineers are happy to farm out the work but I'm not too sure about the long term viability of this.

From the few BER's I have done its not easy work and with SEI still sorting out HARP etc its tough going at times. Definitly the existing houses will open up a whole new world of work but unless SEI clamp down heavy on 'vested interests' then it will be a closed cirlce.

My own gut feeling is that SEI workload is starting to run behind the implementation dates. When is the course for existing houses becoming available? What about non residential? and what about Part L and DEAP?

Alot to be tidied up yet.

gsxr1 · 29-02-2008 9:48pm

Chimpster wrote: »

I qualified last summer and registered straight away. I sat on it for a while and then put out a few feelers among some people I knew in the industry. There is work there at present as some of the architects/engineers are happy to farm out the work but I'm not too sure about the long term viability of this.

From the few BER's I have done its not easy work and with SEI still sorting out HARP etc its tough going at times. Definitly the existing houses will open up a whole new world of work but unless SEI clamp down heavy on 'vested interests' then it will be a closed cirlce.

My own gut feeling is that SEI workload is starting to run behind the implementation dates. When is the course for existing houses becoming available? What about non residential? and what about Part L and DEAP?

Alot to be tidied up yet.

I think the courses start around the september mark.

sinnerboy · 04-03-2008 11:26am

Response from SEI to my enquiries - . I have inserted my own comments' in bold

The new version of DEAP to coincide with TGD L 2007 will be available in the third quarter of 2008

The methodology for existing dwellings has not yet been formalised but is expected to be ready by July of this year ( courses to be set up , attended passed and assessors registered - all by Jan 2009 ?? )

The training requirement, examination and registration process for BER non residential assessors has not been finalised. ( implementation is this July folks ) - However we expect that prospective assessors will be required to:

Demonstrate competence in the use of a validated software tool ( - which one ?? )
Demonstrate knowledge of Part L of the Building Regulations for non residential buildings
Demonstrate ability to generate and interpret Building Energy Rating and Advisory Reports for non residential buildings
Hold appropriate professional indemnity insurance
Register with SEI as a BER assessor for non residential buildings ( - don't rush now folks )

BER National Calculation Methodology for Non-Domestic Buildings

The application of BER to buildings other than dwellings is more complex than for the domestic sector due to the large amount of variation in design, scale, function, usage etc. Ireland will adopt a dual approach comprising the development of a national calculation method and validation of other software packages. The following software may be used by BER assessors to demonstrate compliance with building regulations and generate the BER and Advisory Report:

1) SBEM with the user interface iSBEM

2) SBEM with an approved user interface

3) Approved Dynamic Simulation Model Software

For more details on SBEM and validated software packages currently used in the UK, see http://www.ncm.bre.co.uk/

There is currently no methodology for existing industrial buildings, ( my comment ALL buildings sold or rented from Jan 09 will require BER rating ) however information will be posted on www.sei.ie/ber when it becomes available

The phasing in of BER is not going well - what odds on the minister issuing an SI to push out implementation dates ?

-unlaoised- · 05-03-2008 12:16am

Hello,
I did the BER course last May.
on the course we used DEAP software. I do not have a copy of it. I am currently doing the assignments for the course and I went onto SEI website to get a copy of the software we used on the course.
All they have up is an excel workbook. I understand this will do the same thing but the course notes etc that I have relate to the software.
Does anybody know where I can get a copy of it.

Thank you.

sydthebeat · 05-03-2008 9:21am

the actual DEAP software is only available to registered BER assessors AFAIK.

ruskin · 08-03-2008 5:28pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

the actual DEAP software is only available to registered BER assessors AFAIK.

No, its not. If you do the course online, you get a link to download the software as many times as you want

Gumbo · 08-03-2008 6:03pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

the actual DEAP software is only available to registered BER assessors AFAIK.

i have it on CD here, got it when i started the course.

smooth operater · 08-03-2008 8:13pm

You can download an excell sheet that does it.....I'd usually use that first before throwing it on the software

bauderline · 09-03-2008 10:28am

Folks,

I assume there is nothing stoping any interested party in doing the online course as long as they cough up the funds... sounds like a very enlightening course !

b.

holdfast · 09-03-2008 8:38pm

would like to have seen a bit about your background and experience. This will allow the customer to make a better judgement on you been an expert ????????

sinnerboy · 09-03-2008 9:59pm

bauderline wrote: »

Folks,

I assume there is nothing stoping any interested party in doing the online course as long as they cough up the funds... sounds like a very enlightening course !

b.

mixed blessing . course providers seem to simply cash the checks , bums on seats . 30% fail rate .

there were some on my course wholly unsuited . i did not start out just yesterday and i found the course tough going . others had there head melted .

BL it's a very expensive week ( 1.8K ) if you don't follow up on it . to follow up will cost 1k for year 1 and 500 pa after that SEI registration . then PI insurance .

just hire a good BER assessor for 5-600 ( some one with many years in construction beforehand - architect , structural engineer , QS or m+e services engineer )

spend the rest on cushions ( you know she will never have enough of them )

sydthebeat · 10-03-2008 4:40pm

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1543&docID=-1

i see SEI have released the DEAP xls software with the 2008 regs onboard...

when will they release the updated DEAP software?
I would have though that would be more important, unless the software is xls based anyway and this is part of the process...

sinnerboy · 10-03-2008 4:41pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

http://www.sei.ie/index.asp?locID=1543&docID=-1

i see SEI have released the DEAP xls software with the 2008 regs onboard...

when will they release the updated DEAP software?
I would have though that would be more important, unless the software is xls based anyway and this is part of the process...

see post 109

sydthebeat · 10-03-2008 4:51pm

sinnerboy wrote: »

see post 109

doh..

"third quarter of 2008"........ hummm.......

fodda · 10-03-2008 7:14pm

If the rate was supposed to be upto 500euro for a property assessment and now it is being advertised at under 275 (maybe even less) after only a few months, well with 2000+ Assessors do you think it could be under 100euro before very long??

DEAP/BER Issues (Merged)

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