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Limerick Northern Distributor Road

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    #32
    tigerboon
    Registered Users Posts: 721 ✭✭✭tigerboon


    mastershake wrote: »
    I thought I would bump this thread seeing as the Coonagh Roundabout to the Knockalisheen Rd section is now out to tender for construction.

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/228129

    Reminder of the route below.

    https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/media/documents/2017-05/sl-101_scheme_layout_2.pdf

    Tenders in a few weeks ago.


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    #33
    mastershake
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭mastershake


    Tenders in a few weeks ago.

    Have they announced who has been awarded it yet?


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    #34
    mastershake
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭mastershake


    Update:
    https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2021/0126/1192198-moyross-transport/

    Road Scheme:
    https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/media/documents/2017-05/sl-101_scheme_layout_2.pdf

    There seems to be at an impasse with Minister for Transport Eamonn Ryan not releasing funding for the next phase. I consider this road infrastructure to be an important link for accessibility to/from the Moyross area to the rest of the city. It is also important in that it should act as the city limit/boundary and prevent more sprawl. A green belt should be enforced between this new road and the Clare/Limerick county border, however I don't know if this is Limerick Councils mid/long term intention or if their goal is simply to open more land for housing developments.

    I predict the latter, and so this is why the Greens are in opposition to the road as opposed to the talk of upgrading the rail line which is as everyone knows not going to happen due to the low housing density in the area and the massive costs.


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    #35
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The Green Party are likely going to get torn apart at the next election for once again getting nothing useful done as ideology trumps practicality yet again. This is Limerick we are dealing with, not Tokyo.

    The Limerick Northern Distributor Road is a key element of LSMATS for public transport, removing traffic from the city centre and providing better access between northern suburbs, and the University and other employment centres.


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    #36
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    This next phase of the road seems perfectly logical, extending right around the city to the M7 not so much.

    I assume the longer term plan is to allow for the redevelopment of Moyross to higher density and provide a train station there?


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    #37
    BelfastVanMan
    Registered Users Posts: 667 ✭✭✭BelfastVanMan


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    This next phase of the road seems perfectly logical, extending right around the city to the M7 not so much.

    I assume the longer term plan is to allow for the redevelopment of Moyross to higher density and provide a train station there?

    At the very least, it gives local traffic another way from one side of the city to the other, without having to either go through the middle of the city centre, or without having to pay the N18 tunnel toll.


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    #38
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,069 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I honestly don't understand the Green's hard-on for rail.
    "Halt all roads, cycleways etc, for rail".
    It's not the highest priority transport mode, so why put it above all others?
    Even then, if they were pumping money into a high density Moyross with a new station, surely you still need a proper distributor road, rather than bringing traffic through a maze of estates.

    As everyone else is saying: surely this phase makes sense at least?


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    #39
    TheWonderLlama
    Registered Users Posts: 591 ✭✭✭TheWonderLlama


    BelfastVanMan wrote: »
    At the very least, it gives local traffic another way from one side of the city to the other, without having to either go through the middle of the city centre, or without having to pay the N18 tunnel toll.


    the toll tunnel might be one of the reasons why this project has stalled. The council is having to pay the operator even when there's very little traffic going through it, so the more traffic they can push through, the less it costs them. they have negative incentive to create alternative routes.


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    #40
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,839 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    TheWonderLlama wrote: »
    the toll tunnel might be one of the reasons why this project has stalled. The council is having to pay the operator even when there's very little traffic going through it, so the more traffic they can push through, the less it costs them. they have negative incentive to create alternative routes.
    The council aren't paying the operator a penny. TII run the national network and they pay the tunnel operator.


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    #41
    TheWonderLlama
    Registered Users Posts: 591 ✭✭✭TheWonderLlama


    fair enough, i honestly thought it was the council.


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    #42
    KrisW1001
    Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    I honestly don't understand the Green's hard-on for rail.
    "Halt all roads, cycleways etc, for rail".
    It's not the highest priority transport mode, so why put it above all others?
    Even then, if they were pumping money into a high density Moyross with a new station, surely you still need a proper distributor road, rather than bringing traffic through a maze of estates.

    As everyone else is saying: surely this phase makes sense at least?
    I'd imagine precious few Green party members know what it's like to grow up somewhere like Moyross, and having to deal with the effects of bare-minium transporation infrastructure. (I grew up somewhere similar, but nowhere near as isolated from its city centre)

    I'm a reluctant Green voter: I want better environmental policies, but I don't like the GP's persistent habit of making things more expensive for the already struggling while giving handouts to middle-class people (like me, I'll admit) who can well afford to pay more for it. This objection is typical of that: "More roads are bad" is only true if you live in an area with well-developed road infrastructure where people are choosing to drive instead of taking one of the more environmentally-friendly options that are available; it's definitely not true in places decades of underinvestment mean driving is the only option you have, and to add insult to injury, the road network forces you to take longer, more expensive journeys.

    Roads and rail are not an either/or. Better roads make buses more attractive (by making journey times reliable), but I sometimes think the GP has too many people in it who'd never want to be seen on a bus...


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    #43
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,069 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    My problem is that I see their preference of train over road like preferring cake over bread. You kinda need both and both need to be planned as part of an overall network.

    Having walked to/from a lot of the Limerick suburbs (Dooradoyle, Moylish, Kilmurry) a lot of times carrying bags, it always struck me as a tedious journey, through a seemingly endless "nothing" of cul-de-sacs, housing estates and one-off housing. I don't remember why the bus wasn't an option for me, but it was likely an issue of cost and schedule.
    Cheaper bus, frequent bus, longer bus hours and bus priority would have been hugely helpful.

    Gold-plated solutions like train are very welcome, but you can do a lot with bus, cycle and pedestrian. All are above the train in the heirarchy of needs and all require proper roads.


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    #44
    KrisW1001
    Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    My problem is that I see their preference of train over road like preferring cake over bread. You kinda need both and both need to be planned as part of an overall network.
    That's actually a better summary of my objection. They push for cake, because bread isn't good enough for them, while ignoring that most people don't even have the bread.

    If ever there was a group that let perfect become the enemy of good...

    And, again, I say this as someone who regularly votes for them!
    Having walked to/from a lot of the Limerick suburbs (Dooradoyle, Moylish, Kilmurry) a lot of times carrying bags, it always struck me as a tedious journey, through a seemingly endless "nothing" of cul-de-sacs, housing estates and one-off housing. I don't remember why the bus wasn't an option for me, but it was likely an issue of cost and schedule.
    Cheaper bus, frequent bus, longer bus hours and bus priority would have been hugely helpful.
    Looking at a map gives a good clue why this didn't happen: these 1970s estates are very poorly connected by design, often with only one or two ways in or out, and lots of branching into dead-ends. That mass of cul-de-sacs might be good at removing through traffic, but good public transport requires efficient through-routes. The design pattern they used seems to have originated in the United States, where car ownership is a given.

    (I grew up in a similar place, but not as remote and physically isolated as the estates of North-West Limerick)
    Gold-plated solutions like train are very welcome, but you can do a lot with bus, cycle and pedestrian. All are above the train in the heirarchy of needs and all require proper roads.
    Yes. First keep the pedestrians away from the wheeled transport to encourage walking (at least we did that); next, keep the cyclists away from motorised transport to encourage cycling; then give buses priority over private cars to encourage use of public transport, and only then, if that hasn't fixed the transport problems, should you start looking at light rail. Heavy rail should only be on the radar if an existing light rail system becomes so wildly successful that it can't meet demand.


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    #45
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    hans aus dtschl wrote: »
    My problem is that I see their preference of train over road like preferring cake over bread. You kinda need both and both need to be planned as part of an overall network.

    Having walked to/from a lot of the Limerick suburbs (Dooradoyle, Moylish, Kilmurry) a lot of times carrying bags, it always struck me as a tedious journey, through a seemingly endless "nothing" of cul-de-sacs, housing estates and one-off housing. I don't remember why the bus wasn't an option for me, but it was likely an issue of cost and schedule.
    Cheaper bus, frequent bus, longer bus hours and bus priority would have been hugely helpful.

    Gold-plated solutions like train are very welcome, but you can do a lot with bus, cycle and pedestrian. All are above the train in the heirarchy of needs and all require proper roads.

    Current thinking is moving towards 'bus only' roads in certain places, obviously would want to couple with expansion of bus network/frequency and lower fares.


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    #46
    Red Silurian
    Registered Users Posts: 8,428 ✭✭✭Red Silurian


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    Current thinking is moving towards 'bus only' roads in certain places, obviously would want to couple with expansion of bus network/frequency and lower fares.

    Bus only roads, unless you completely separate them from the regular road, simply won't work, too many drivers will see it as an alternate unpoliced route


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    #47
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,839 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    So there's been a slight climbdown from the Greens. After a huge local backlash, they've said that the section from Coonagh to Moyross can be built, but the rest of the road from Moyross to the Knockalisheen Rd and the upgrade of the Knockalisheen Road (new footpaths and cycle lanes) is to be canned.

    Of course this means that Moyross will become a rat run without the Knockalisheen Rd connection and that the Knockalisheen Rd won't get any footpaths or cycle lanes.


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    #48
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 984 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    colmtheperson wrote: »
    Bus only roads, unless you completely separate them from the regular road, simply won't work, too many drivers will see it as an alternate unpoliced route

    Well yeah it would have to be coupled with ANPR and high fines/penalty points


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    #49
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,069 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    riddlinrussell wrote: »
    Well yeah it would have to be coupled with ANPR and high fines/penalty points

    Some places use retractable bollards too, but they're more cumbersome and expensive. ANPR would be ideal.
    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    So there's been a slight climbdown from the Greens. After a huge local backlash, they've said that the section from Coonagh to Moyross can be built, but the rest of the road from Moyross to the Knockalisheen Rd and the upgrade of the Knockalisheen Road (new footpaths and cycle lanes) is to be canned.

    Of course this means that Moyross will become a rat run without the Knockalisheen Rd connection and that the Knockalisheen Rd won't get any footpaths or cycle lanes.

    I'd like to see the plans. As you describe it, it doesn't make sense to me. The bit they need most would be missing.


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    #50
    mastershake
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭mastershake


    I'd like to see the plans. As you describe it, it doesn't make sense to me. The bit they need most would be missing.

    Coonagh to Knockalisheen Rd:
    https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/media/documents/2017-05/sl-101_scheme_layout_2.pdf


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    #51
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,069 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    mastershake wrote: »
    Road Plan:
    https://www.limerick.ie/sites/defaul...e_layout_2.pdf

    Thanks for the effort but the link seems to have been garbled?


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    #52
    KrisW1001
    Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/media/documents/2017-05/sl-101_scheme_layout_2.pdf


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    #53
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    KrisW1001 wrote: »
    https://www.limerick.ie/sites/default/files/media/documents/2017-05/sl-101_scheme_layout_2.pdf

    Date of drawing is: 30.05.2011
    Approval date is: 30.04.2013

    Is this the latest "current" drawing?


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    #54
    KrisW1001
    Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Eamon Ryan and Willie O'Dea were on Morning Ireland this morning about this scheme.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2021/0205/1195241-limerick/

    If you didn't know the parties, you'd think O'Dea was the Green: his arguments for the road were centred on improved public environment, preventing rat-runs through residential areas, and enabling better bus public transport. Meanwhile one of Ryan's arguments was that he wanted a new scheme that would open up further development.

    I despair of the Greens sometimes. As a party, they really don't understand the concept of doing something because it will make things better even if it won't be perfect; and they have a nasty tendency of throwing goodies at people who can well afford them. True to form, a totally new (and unfeasible) rail and transport scheme was offered as the alternative to this modest road improvement. Eamon Ryan really made me angry by saying that rail should be prioritised over this road. To me, that sounded like "we want rail, because middle-class professionals will be able to use those trains too, whereas this road would just encourage poor people to drive their dirty, old cars".

    Grr.


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    #55
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,967 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    KrisW1001 wrote: »
    Eamon Ryan really made me angry by saying that rail should be prioritised over this road. To me, that sounded like "we want rail, because middle-class professionals will be able to use those trains too, whereas this road would just encourage poor people to drive their dirty, old cars".
    Grr.

    Isn’t rail often in this country assumed to be for the poor (and carless) whereas new roads are for the car-owning middle class?


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    #56
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Isn’t rail often in this country assumed to be for the poor (and carless) whereas new roads are for the car-owning middle class?

    True for buses for sure,....... cars are expensive to run.


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    #57
    yabadabado
    Registered Users Posts: 16,523 ✭✭✭✭yabadabado


    KrisW1001 wrote: »
    Eamon Ryan and Willie O'Dea were on Morning Ireland this morning about this scheme.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2021/0205/1195241-limerick/

    If you didn't know the parties, you'd think O'Dea was the Green: his arguments for the road were centred on improved public environment, preventing rat-runs through residential areas, and enabling better bus public transport. Meanwhile one of Ryan's arguments was that he wanted a new scheme that would open up further development.

    I despair of the Greens sometimes. As a party, they really don't understand the concept of doing something because it will make things better even if it won't be perfect; and they have a nasty tendency of throwing goodies at people who can well afford them. True to form, a totally new (and unfeasible) rail and transport scheme was offered as the alternative to this modest road improvement. Eamon Ryan really made me angry by saying that rail should be prioritised over this road. To me, that sounded like "we want rail, because middle-class professionals will be able to use those trains too, whereas this road would just encourage poor people to drive their dirty, old cars".

    Grr.

    I was listening to that earlier and couldn't get over how mental this is.
    They now want to half build the route and also want rail.

    I don't think anyone but the GP thinks this road isn't a good idea and obviously if they could also have rail it would be brilliant but the road makes perfect sense.


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    #58
    pigtown
    Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭pigtown


    yabadabado wrote: »

    I don't think anyone but the GP thinks this road isn't a good idea and obviously if they could also have rail it would be brilliant but the road makes perfect sense.

    Well I don't think the scale of the road makes sense. A dual carriageway with median barriers is certainly overspec for a road that is only supposed to facilitate greater access to and development in the area. Even the Dock Road, Raheen Industrial Estate, and University/Technology Park don't have such high spec roads.

    It's clearly designed as the first stage of a bypass of the city which itself is envisaged to open up more Greenfield land for low density car-centric development, including a new town at the university. This sort of sprawl is recognized to be a bad idea and it goes against national policy.

    It's unfortunate that the people of Moyross are getting caught in the crossfire but I don't disagree with the contention that the current plan goes against all current thinking on sustainable development


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    #59
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,726 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Whatever about this stretch of road, the full Limerick Northern Distributor Road is last century thinking. Unless land has already been CPOed, I think it would make sense for this new road to join Knockalisheen Road further south with the intention to extend to the R464 as the next phase and potentially to the R463 thereafter. The existing road should be converted to a general traffic lane + bus lane in each direction.


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    #60
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,839 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Land acquisition and preparatory work has already been done at a cost of €17m. The contractor to build it has been chosen and it is literally only waiting on Ryan's sign off for work to begin.


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    #61
    hans aus dtschl
    Registered Users Posts: 3,069 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Pete_Cavan wrote: »
    Whatever about this stretch of road, the full Limerick Northern Distributor Road is last century thinking. Unless land has already been CPOed, I think it would make sense for this new road to join Knockalisheen Road further south with the intention to extend to the R464 as the next phase and potentially to the R463 thereafter. The existing road should be converted to a general traffic lane + bus lane in each direction.

    I'd be broadly in agreement with this.
    If it's a distributor, it shouldn't be dual carriageway, it needs a dedicated bus priority lane.


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