Limerick Northern Distributor Road

Pete_Cavan

Including the LNDR in LSMATS achieves nothing, the project is way down the list for funding so wasn't going to happen his decade anyway. Better to focus on things which are actually achievable.

I don't think what has been suggested would really be a distributor road anyway, it would likely operate as another bypass (i.e. a large proportion of journeys would meet the R445 on both sides of the city). The western side will be largely completed relatively soon (depending how things go with Roadbridge), the objective now should be an extension from the Plassey Road RAB going north-west. That would actually help distribute traffic in the area, rather than attracting large volumes of traffic which doesn't need to be there at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984530#Comment_118984530

The problem with including it, however, is you end up with "we're only doing X because Y & Z demand are taken care of by the LNDR", whereas if you exclude the LNDR you have to address the Y & Z demands using more sustainable options.

Simply put, a "transport strategy" that involves building more roads is a failed strategy. Never, in the history of anywhere, has building more roads fixed problems with traffic in the long term due to induced demand.

Sure go ahead and build the thing, but don't use the building of it as a justification for not doing other things just because you are building it.

In addition, by removing it from the strategy, you reduce the actual need for it as the demand needs are met using alternatives. If its truly needed, the figures will stand on their own. Its important to note, the road has not been cancelled here, its simply been removed from a strategy document

Lastly, by removing it from the strategy, funding decisions on items in the strategy are no longer constrained by the amount being taken up by the behemoth of a road, which allows for greater scope in expanding funding cases and provision of services. For example, you could go the whole hog and end up with a list of actions that could look something like this

• Bike share stations spread all across the city & suburbs, one every 200-300 meters
• Sub 10 min frequency on all bus routes from 6am to midnight
• Large expansion of bus routes on offer
• As mentioned rail expansion
• Park & Strides on all major routes
• Protected bike lanes throughout the city on all routes
• Increased permeability and priority for pedestrians
• etc etc etc

Little if any of the above would be likely to happen if you say "this is the pot of money, 80% of which is going to the LNDR".

cantalach

The walk, cycle, and bus aspects of this are logically sound and technically doable (though the spectacular failure to build a bus lane along the Ennis Road 10 years ago doesn’t fill me with confidence about ability to deliver!). A green route all along the north levee of the river to Bunratty and Shannon would be amazing. “All my changes were there,” as Mr Young puts it.

But parts of the rail plan make no sense to me. Consider the proposed Moyross Station. Being on a line that will remain single-tracked, services will presumably be relatively infrequent. And they will deposit commuters at Colbert Station which the report admits is 15 minutes from the city centre. But Moyross will also be on the D bus corridor which the report says will have services every 15 mins, and which will serve the city centre. Why on Earth would anyone get the train from Moyross?! The proposed Corbally Station makes even less sense given that it is on the C bus corridor with services every 15 mins going straight into town. In fact, depending on where exactly you were going in the city centre, it could be quicker to just walk than to get the train from Corbally. The mere presence of a rail line doesn’t necessarily mean that it makes sense.

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984612#Comment_118984612

That's all fine, and I even agree with the approach. But they haven't written that, they've effectively written "the minister made a demand and we're just doing what we were told".

The way they have written it can only be for the purpose of undermining the decision. I'd expect a new revision of LSMATS with the Northern Distributor included as a result of the way it's written!

hans aus dtschl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118986605#Comment_118986605

The only thing I can think of around those stations is to allow people to more easily travel further out of Limerick from Corbally or Moyross via Colbert. Again though as you say, bus might be more viable.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118986982#Comment_118986982

What was written is that LNDR is not funded under the NDP and would be contrary to the NPF, these were not decisions made by the MfT (even if he is likely in agreement). Neither of the aforementioned documents will be changing soon so it is unlikely any revised version of LSMATS will be significantly different in relation to the LNDR. The NTA is me up of civil servans who tare well aware of the wider context and relevant government policies, the aren't using official plans to make some petty point to a Minister they know will be gone in a couple of years.

At the end of the day, LSMATS can say what it likes about LNDR but that won't change the fact that the project is well down the government’s priorities list. Even if government policy changed tomorrow and LNDR was priority number 1, there are many years of design, procurement and construction before it can open so other things have to be done in the meantime.

hans aus dtschl

I can't imagine it being a high priority project either. Like the Galway Ring Road, as far as I'm concerned: the wrong tool to fix an existing problem.

geotrig

my problem still sits with the finishing of this road at Knockalisheen and not past Parteen , I think Parteen needed to be bypassed here and would have been a great relief to the Corbally and Parteen area's that is needed, the stations while all sounding great seem a bit stupid overall and pointless .I'd also question colbert station as being "15mins " from the centre ? it about 2 mins from the centre really ?

mart 23

Has a contractor been appointed yet to complete the Coonagh Knocklisheen road .

Limerick74

@DanielButlerFG: The NTA have finalised the LSMATS and the Northern Distributor Road is not in it.

Significant blow to #Limerick and the region. https://twitter.com/DanielButlerFG/status/1584941386037858306/photo/1

Pete_Cavan

Makes no difference, it's a massive project to facilitate very little. It wasn't going to be funded by the government, not even a N road.

A link between J28 and Plassey Park Road roundabout, then a link from there north across the river would be more realistic.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792665#Comment_119792665

Is this the roundabout at the eastern end of the National Technology Park? The one with the exit to the NE that goes nowhere.

Cookiemunster

I hadn't realised that a contractor had been appointed to finish Coonagh to Knockalisheen, never mind that they were already on site and working.

https://twitter.com/LimerickCouncil/status/1605909670136365061

SeanW

Never, in the history of anywhere, has building more roads fixed problems with traffic in the long term due to induced demand.

@[Deleted User] I think the people of Moate or Loughrea might disagree with you there ...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026494#Comment_120026494

Show me the data, pre and post, for traffic in both locations, including the figures for the new roads and you'll see a pretty clear picture of induced demand.

I know both locations well, and both locations are still absolute fusterclucks with cars everywhere, Loughrea especially is a disaster. It got a motorway and a bypass and its truly a dismal mess.

In both instances literally nothing was done to improve the situation following the bypassing of those towns so they are as shite now as they were before.

However things are changing for the better with proposals being mooted now that designs and planning applications for bypasses (Loughrea) will be required to show how the public realm will be transformed as a result of building such bypasses so reallocation of road space and reprioritization away from cars will be required to get bypasses approved and funding will apply to everything getting built. Soon it won't be enough to simply redirect the traffic on to a new road, where you are redirecting it from must be transformed into a better place to live and work which will discourage access by car.

SeanW

I remember having to spend 1-2 hours trying to get through Loughrea back in the day, and highly doubt that it is anywhere near as bad now.

veryangryman

Indeed moate and loughrea are better for it. Better in that those who want to go somewhere decent can get there without having to look at them. Honestly you can't put lipstick on a pig but if you can avoid said pig on the way to better things it's a good thing.

I'm all for this road. Progress in a time of dithering. Good to see

Paddico

Not much mentioned on this in a while.

Any construction going on or any future plans been implemented?

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926029#Comment_120926029

The Coonagh to Knockalisheen section is under construction again after a new contractor was found to replace Roadbridge. The rest of it was canned by Eamonn Ryan.

marno21

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2023-05-04a.53

Discussed in the Dail recently. I was taken aback at the arrogance of Deputy Leddin interrupting to tell a Sinn Fein TD what Sinn Fein could and couldn't do in Government.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926190#Comment_120926190

I'm not. He used to post on here before he got elected as a councillor and subsequently to the Dail and that attitude was pretty normal in any debate you tried to have with him. It was his way or no way.

Cookiemunster

I had thought that this was already out to tender. It must have been a different contract that I saw. However....

The Department of Transport have issued approval to progress the Coonagh to Knockalisheen Distributor Road Project to tender stage.

The tender stage will take approximately 4 months to complete with the aim of commencing onsite in Spring 2024.

The full scheme will take approximately 24 months to complete broken down into 2 Phases.

Phase One will see the completion of the Mainline Dual Carriageway from Coonagh Cross to Knockalisheen Road including works on the Old Cratloe Road and the new Moyross Link Road. The expected duration for these works is 12 months.

Phase Two is the completion of the full road reconstruction of Knockalisheen Road to Watch House Cross including the reconstruction of Ballynanty Railway Bridge. The expected duration of these works is 12 months.

https://www.limerick.ie/council/newsroom/news/coonagh-to-knockalisheen-road-project-approved-for-tender

So Spring 2025 for the new Coonagh to Knockalisheen road to open and Spring 2026 for the upgraded Knockalisheen road to open.

spacetweek

I thought all this time that this was under construction for a few years now!!

Do we ever actually build things in this country?

Cookiemunster

It had started construction in March '21 with a 33 month build time, but the contractor was Roadbridge who went bust 18 months later. The new contractor will finish the job.

Limerick74

So the balance of 15 months will take 24 months. The joys of restarting a paused construction project.

spacetweek

Yea, restarting a failed project is a mare. You can't really just pick up where the last crew left off. You have to reset.

Pman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926221#Comment_120926221

He has great plans for railway network throughout Limerick and Clare. He's a visionary. He's a gamechanger. A modern day Patrick Sarsfield for Limerick.

By the way his wigness is being dragged out of the ground in Flanders and being brought back to Limerick. The least we should do is prosecute him for kidnapping poor Ann Siderlin and Elizabeth Herbert.

Paddico

This is how it looks on a recent satellite view.

spacetweek

That's all it is?? No point building that in isolation. Needs to go at least as far as Sweeps Road to be any use. From there you can get to Parteen and onward.

Cookiemunster

This section predates the LNDR plan. It was originally designed to open up Moyross as part of the regeneration program. The rest of the LNDR plan has been binned by Ryan.

And before people start claiming that he's not the blame for everything, he very publically tried to stop this section going to construction and TII stated in the LSMATS document that he requested that the LNDR was removed from the plan.

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384078#Comment_121384078

Based on the works carried out by Roadbridge RIP the new road comes to a dead halt where it meets the Knockalisheen road (close to the entrance to the direct provision centre), so it's overall extent is from Coonagh Cross to the Old Cratloe Road to the Knockalisheen road. There has been extensive clearing and fencing beside the Knockalisheen road from this point back in to the upgraded junction with the R464 (next to Iceland/Amber) indicating that this will be widened.

Ridiculous that the project is taking so long to restart. The council should have been able to step in and award a contract for completion expeditiously.

Limerick74

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121384252#Comment_121384252

*NTA are the lead agency for LNDR, not TII, as LNDR would not be a national road.

EPointer=Birdss

Seems like phase 2 of this is still creating delays in the planning process. Wasn’t the preferred route locked awhile back?

I’m aware of planning that is held up as the council internally try to figure out if a proposed application is viable or not.

It seems unclear to them if the preferred route corridor is constrained for development (understandably) or if a wider undefined area either side of the corridor still is.

That’s where it gets amateur for me if this is in fact the case as it brings it back to where we were for the last what feels like 20 years. Restricting landowners & their families on a what might be. Worst still millions spent to be here.

Any clarity from others if this road is still subject to route change?

pigtown

Wasn't it cancelled by the minister?

Cookiemunster

Yeah, it was removed from LSMATS by Eamonn Ryan.

Previous to that though it never got as far as the planning stage, so definitely isn't held up or creating any planning delays.

EPointer=Birdss

I can tell you it is creating planning delays for people close to the corridor. In some cases it’s not even mentioned in applications as a consideration. Extremely inconsistent it seems

The Clare TDs want the road & insisted on adding it to the CDP even though the minister squashed it

idi na khuy hai

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121657888#Comment_121657888

Another smart decision from the bicycle salesman....

He'd struggle to pour water out of his own boot, that boy, even if the instructions were written on the sole..

source

The full road was removed then after some backlash he agreed to the continue building the road as far as Knocklisheen.

EPointer=Birdss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121658217#Comment_121658217

From the LSMATs yes but the phase 2 corridor is safeguarded for infrastructure in the council maps referenced in planning applications. It’s not illogical to do so to be fair for future potential development of said road, just very difficult to avail of clear information.

mart 23

Has the Coonagh to Knocklisheen road work restarted.

k

Hibernicis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122029959#Comment_122029959

Nope, sod all happening. Disgraceful really given that the construction was quite advanced when Roadbridge went belly up and there can't be more than 6-12 months work remaining to complete the project. .

The road from Coonagh Cross to Old Cratloe road appears to be made, apart from the surface dressing/wearing course. The section from the Old Cratloe road to the Knockalisheen Road road and the connection into Moyross (Back of Thomond Student Village and Delmege Park) is less advance, however the foundations are in place, two of the roundabouts are formed and the bridge over the Limerick-Ennis railway also appears to be well advanced.

Some photos taken last weekend:

Coonagh Cross looking North (Above)

Old Cratloe Road looking South West (Above)

Old Cratloe Road looking North East (Above)

Knockalisheen Road looking West (Above)

Bridge over Limerick-Ennis railway taken from Woodcock Hill Bog

Cookiemunster

There are two years left in the project. A year to finish the under construction road and then another year to rebuild the Knockalisheen Rd.

The contract for the new contractor is only due to be awarded around now. Getting a contractor to finish a job started by someone else isn't a straight forward as awarding a 'clean' contract.

This has all been well publicised and has actually been discussed above on this page.

Hibernicis

🙄🙄

Hibernicis

Latest:

Ryan answers a question from Quinlivan on 28th May 2024 saying "tenders still being assessed and anyway it has nothing to do with me"

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2024-05-28/148/#pq_148

Quinlivan: 148. Deputy Maurice Quinlivan asked the Minister for Transport to discuss what progress has been made in the construction of the Coonagh-Knockalisheen road; when he anticipates it being completed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23934/24]

Ryan: It is important to emphasise that the improvement and maintenance of regional and local roads is the statutory responsibility of each local authority, in accordance with the provisions of Section 13 of the Roads Act 1993.

Coonagh/Knockalisheen Distributor Road scheme consists of the construction of a new distributor road, cycleways, footpaths and verges between Coonagh roundabout on the Ennis Road and the Knockalisheen Road in the Moyross area of the city. The scheme forms part of the regeneration of Limerick plan which outlines the regeneration of disadvantaged areas in the city with improved transport and access seen as a vital tool in improving socio-economic conditions.

Limerick City and County Council is the contracting authority for the Coonagh to Knockalisheen Distributor Road project. Progress on this road project was interrupted in 2022. Since then, works on the Ballygrennan Bridge, which is over the Galway-Ennis railway line, have completed. 

A further contract for completion of the project has been tendered. These tenders are currently being assessed. Subject to a successful outcome to that procurement process, the main construction for the remainder of the roads project could recommence this year. This would allow the local community improved access to various transport modes as well as better local access via the Distributor Road project.

Which is more or less a cut and paste of this from 1st February 2024

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2024-02-01/45/#pq_45

and this from 7th November 2023

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2023-11-07/206/

Cookiemunster

In fairness to Ryan (and I'm very rarely fair to him), the delay here is on LCCC. It was tendered on Nov 3rd with tenders to be received by Jan 19th. That's over 5 months ago now.

spacetweek

The progress on the road so far can be seen in the latest Google Maps aerial imagery.

Cookiemunster

According to Willie O'Dea a contractor has finally been appointed to finish Coonagh to Knockalisheen and will be on site "in a matter of weeks".

Paddico

Good man Willie, no better man 🙄

jhansynk10

Jes we'll be dead by the time they ever do complete the entire route from Coonagh to the N7

Cookiemunster

Finally! Wills Bros appointed to finish the Coonagh to Knockalisheen Road.

https://www.limerick.ie/council/newsroom/news/limerick-city-and-county-council-awards-construction-contract-to-wills-bros