Landlord Doesn't Provide References

10-07-2020 4:22pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

Does a landlord have to give a reference?

Absolutely not.

Lux23 · 10-07-2020 4:35pm

I told two letting agents that our current landlord won't provide a reference, but that we had some older ones and everything and they weren't too bothered especially when we said we were in the same place five years. So hopefully, it won't make any difference in the end.

10-07-2020 4:38pm

Lux23 wrote: »

I told two letting agents that our current landlord won't provide a reference, but that we had some older ones and everything and they weren't too bothered especially when we said we were in the same place five years. So hopefully, it won't make any difference in the end.

That really depends on whether the LL insists on them. More than ever, it is important to avoid renting to bad tenants.

Lux23 · 10-07-2020 4:39pm

We aren't bad tenants, please stop insinuating that. We also have older references.

mrslancaster · 10-07-2020 5:08pm

Lux23 wrote: »

.. We also have older references.

What use are previous references really? As another poster said, they can easily be forged (not saying yours are).

Is the best reference for a new landlord proof that the right rent was paid on time for several years? Presumably that means the tenants were there without any major issues eg no arrears, no breach of lease agreement, no anti-social behaviour, no notice to quit etc.

It is a pity there's not some official form that both tenant and landlord sign at the end of a tenancy to say the property was returned in good order and the tenant got their deposit back. IMO something like that would be useful for both parties.

10-07-2020 5:29pm

Lux23 wrote: »

We aren't bad tenants, please stop insinuating that. We also have older references.

There was no insinuation that you are.

10-07-2020 10:01pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

No idea what you're talking about.

Moving on...

Really? I need to actually quote you back to yourself?

OMM 0000 wrote: »

As long as you can provide proof you paid your rent on time every month for the period you were there, that's all a bank will care about.

Car99 wrote: »

Where did pleasing the bank come into it?

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Read the first post. The reference is for a mortgage or temporary place in the meantime.

cruizer101 wrote: »

The reference is for letting a new bigger property, thats what they say in OP.

Ok?

crossmolinalad · 13-07-2020 10:58am

mrslancaster wrote: »

What use are previous references really? As another poster said, they can easily be forged (not saying yours are).

Is the best reference for a new landlord proof that the right rent was paid on time for several years? Presumably that means the tenants were there without any major issues eg no arrears, no breach of lease agreement, no anti-social behavior, no notice to quit etc.

It is a pity there's not some official form that both tenant and landlord sign at the end of a tenancy to say the property was returned in good order and the tenant got their deposit back. IMO something like that would be useful for both parties.

Wont work
Have a friend who's landlord and had tenants he wants them to leave so soon as possible
Almost tenants from hell
He wrote a reference for them that was great
Paid on time , were clean nice behavior bla bla
Only to get rid of them so soon as possible
For him it worked , they were gone in two months

Lux23 · 13-07-2020 1:39pm

Dav010 wrote: »

There was no insinuation that you are.

the_syco wrote: »

Perhaps the LL refuses to give a reference as the OP caused them issues?

One example insinuating that I was a bad tenant.

Lux23 · 13-07-2020 1:40pm

mrslancaster wrote: »

What use are previous references really? As another poster said, they can easily be forged (not saying yours are).

Is the best reference for a new landlord proof that the right rent was paid on time for several years? Presumably that means the tenants were there without any major issues eg no arrears, no breach of lease agreement, no anti-social behaviour, no notice to quit etc.

It is a pity there's not some official form that both tenant and landlord sign at the end of a tenancy to say the property was returned in good order and the tenant got their deposit back. IMO something like that would be useful for both parties.

Exactly, we are in the same place over five years, surely we would have moved around if we were problem tenants. The whole thing is very unfair.

13-07-2020 1:52pm

Lux23 wrote: »

Exactly, we are in the same place over five years, surely we would have moved around if we were problem tenants. The whole thing is very unfair.

Unfortunately that is the problem LLs face, the problem tenant who refuses to move around, but stays put causing problems, that is why references and/or contact details are so very important. Personally I always phone the previous LL, and have been called a number of times about former tenants.

Lux23 · 14-07-2020 1:26pm

He just relented on the proviso that we stay until the end of year, we probably won't but at least we can give potential landlords his number and the older references.

Thanks for the helpful advice.

brisan · 14-07-2020 1:41pm

LeineGlas wrote: »

He mostly likely isn't declaring rental income so does not want anything on record.

That was my first thought

brisan · 14-07-2020 1:46pm

crossmolinalad wrote: »

Ive moved 6 times in 15 years and never got references
Showed new landlords the rentbooks and always got their house

Not many landlords give out rentbooks,.same way not many landlords give out letters confirming previous rent on property.
I /we were landlords before the accusations start flying

14-07-2020 1:47pm

brisan wrote: »

That was my first thought

Suspicious minds.

Unless the op was handing over envelopes of cash each month, it’s “on record”.

brisan · 14-07-2020 1:49pm

Lux23 wrote: »

He was prosecuted for tax evasion, his name was in the paper.

Touche

brisan · 14-07-2020 1:52pm

JimmyVik wrote: »

Is he still doing it

OP never said LL is still EVADING TAX ,just that he is a tax evader ,and said he was prosecuted for it

brisan · 14-07-2020 1:56pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Suspicious minds.

Unless the op was handing over envelopes of cash each month, it’s “on record”.

The OP pays it into a bank account every month
They have no idea whose name is on that bank account
Revenue may not have any provable links between the LL and the account in question

14-07-2020 2:02pm

brisan wrote: »

The OP pays it into a bank account every month
They have no idea whose name is on that bank account
Revenue may not have any provable links between the LL and the account in question

Someone else gets to pay tax on it then? I know when I set up a SO, I have to put the name of the account I’m paying into on it, maybe you don’t.

brisan · 14-07-2020 2:57pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Someone else gets to pay tax on it then? I know when I set up a SO, I have to put the name of the account I’m paying into on it, maybe you don’t.

We as landlords have had in the past legitimate reasons to ask tenants to change the account that the rent was paid into.
All they needed was an IBAN

14-07-2020 3:33pm

brisan wrote: »

We as landlords have had in the past legitimate reasons to ask tenants to change the account that the rent was paid into.
All they needed was an IBAN

I wonder was your tenant suspicious of that.

brisan · 14-07-2020 4:26pm

Dav010 wrote: »

I wonder was your tenant suspicious of that.

Why would they be
They never asked
One occasion was when NIB pulled out of Ireland
Another was to keep track of a certain houses rent as 3 properties were paying the same rent each month.
Many legitimate reasons to change bank accounts

0xzmro3n4y7lb5 · 14-07-2020 4:31pm

Tell him as you can't move you'll be moving on to HAP which he can't refuse and advise him he'll need a tax cert, the property will need to be inspected etc or he can just give you a reference.

14-07-2020 5:53pm

brisan wrote: »

Why would they be
They never asked
One occasion was when NIB pulled out of Ireland
Another was to keep track of a certain houses rent as 3 properties were paying the same rent each month.
Many legitimate reasons to change bank accounts

They shouldn’t, any more that someone suspecting a LL who doesn’t give references is evading tax, yet that was your “first thought”. There may be good reasons why the LL doesn’t want to give them, like being burned in the past, and bad tenant. Lucky your tenant doesn’t have a suspicious mind.

Tar.Aldarion · 15-07-2020 12:21am

Dav010 wrote: »

You must have seen the accounts he submitted to Revenue for taxation, did he just hand them to you, or did he leave them on your coffee table?

My gf went in to check about getting rental assistance and the property isn't registered with prtb, I'd say things like that are a good sign they are not paying tax?
She's afraid to inquire in case she has to move out.

JustAThought · 15-07-2020 12:51am

OP - the landlord dosn’t have to supply one possibly a similar reason as to why many companies won’t give them nowadays either which I also feel is pretty poor.

Don’t you have receipts or copies of EFT for each month - compile these and the new LL should be happy enough to take them on face value. If you were there 5 years there should be better goodwill than that - you’d wonder - is there something you missed (although you sound reasonable & like good tenants) or does s/he just not want to loose you?

As regards giving out letters I’d be wary of giving something out - too many people dishonest or
familiar with photoshop nowadays and God knows where it could end up or who could end up using it. A verbal reference would be fair on you both but a letting agent would want a written one I’d guess to cover their ass and contractual requirement with their LL’s. Proof of monthly payments and visibility on full deposit returned might be the next best way to go.

paul71 · 15-07-2020 4:52am

[PHP][/PHP]

Eric Cartman wrote: »

+1 , theres a horrible undercurrent in this forum at times of everyone assuming every landlord is a tax evader.

Especially since is now practically impossible to evade income tax on rent.

15-07-2020 4:57am

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

My gf went in to check about getting rental assistance and the property isn't registered with prtb, I'd say things like that are a good sign they are not paying tax?
She's afraid to inquire in case she has to move out.

Is your girlfriend paying her rent in cash? If she isn’t, then it is going into a bank account so the LL is paying at least some form of tax (DIRT) on it. It is hard to hide money from Revenue that is being paid into a bank account. The LL can register with the RTB at any time by paying a late registration fee, so no, it is not a sign that the LL is not paying tax. Your girlfriend should not in any way be afraid to apply for rental assistance, it makes no difference to her if he is registered with the RTB, she could still take a dispute to them if she needed to irrespective of whether he is registered.

There is only one way to know if a LL is not paying tax, you read their income tax return, everything else is unfounded speculation

Pkiernan · 15-07-2020 7:42am

Can someone explain what the upside is for a landlord for giving a reference?

15-07-2020 7:57am

Pkiernan wrote: »

Can someone explain what the upside is for a landlord for giving a reference?

Sense of goodwill in supporting a good tenant in their search for a new property and helping get rid of a bad tenant in the same search.

brisan · 15-07-2020 8:00am

Dav010 wrote: »

They shouldn’t, any more that someone suspecting a LL who doesn’t give references is evading tax, yet that was your “first thought”. There may be good reasons why the LL doesn’t want to give them, like being burned in the past, and bad tenant. Lucky your tenant doesn’t have a suspicious mind.

The majority of tenant don't care about the landlords business once he keeps the place in good nick ,is quick to respond to issues and leaves them alone.
There is no valid reason not to provide a reference
A simple reference stating XYZ rented from me for 5 years 2015-2020 is a reference
You can pick up just as much from whats not said in a reference as you can from whats said

brisan · 15-07-2020 8:03am

paul71 wrote: »

[PHP][/PHP]

Especially since is now practically impossible to evade income tax on rent.

the OP landlord managed to do it and was prosecuted for it and named in the papers
There is always a way to evade tax.
Its the scale that gets people caught

Happy4all · 15-07-2020 8:10am

paul71 wrote: »

[PHP][/PHP]

Especially since is now practically impossible to evade income tax on rent.

Are properties registered with the RTB available to search online?

brisan · 15-07-2020 8:16am

Happy4all wrote: »

Are properties registered with the RTB available to search online?

https://www.rtb.ie/check/index.html
Not all properties are registered

Happy4all · 15-07-2020 8:19am

brisan wrote: »

https://www.rtb.ie/check/index.html
Not all properties are registered

If they are not registered are they less likely to be paying tax

brisan · 15-07-2020 8:27am

Happy4all wrote: »

If they are not registered are they less likely to be paying tax

According to some all landlords are fully tax compliant angels who rent out properties at a loss out of the goodness of their heart
When we rented out properties it was a money making business which we treated as such and paid tax on .
When it got too hard and too time consuming to make money we sold up and got out .
Sold to 2 different landlords and they still complain that I should have told them what they were getting into
The fact I was getting out should have told them enough.

15-07-2020 8:32am

brisan wrote: »

There is no valid reason not to provide a reference

The LL gave one, he got burned before, perhaps for being too honest.

brisan wrote: »

the OP landlord managed to do it and was prosecuted for it and named in the papers
There is always a way to evade tax.
Its the scale that gets people caught

There you go making assumptions again, the tax evasion may have been associated with another business, and Revenue require a settlement. You are still speculating about whether he is paying tax on rental income and given the fact that the op hasn’t stated it is being paid in cash, it’s unlikely that he would be able to avoid tax on money paid to a bank account.

brisan · 15-07-2020 8:39am

Dav010 wrote: »

The LL gave one, he got burned before, perhaps for being too honest.

There you go making assumptions again, the tax evasion may have been associated with another business, and Revenue require a settlement. You are still speculating about whether he is paying tax on rental income and given the fact that the op hasn’t stated it is being paid in cash, it’s unlikely that he would be able to avoid tax on money paid to a bank account.

Its not too big a leap to assume if he evaded tax on one business but not on another
Just because the money is going into a bank account means nothing
There are tax deductible expenses that can be claimed whether they are legitimate or not .
All you need are reciepts

15-07-2020 8:47am

brisan wrote: »

Its not too big a leap to assume if he evaded tax on one business but not on another
Just because the money is going into a bank account means nothing
There are tax deductible expenses that can be claimed whether they are legitimate or not .
All you need are reciepts

It is difficult to evade tax on rent paid into a bank account, it is more likely to be on cash income, under declaration of VAT etc. Leaving that aside, you have absolutely no proof that this person, or anyone else is evading tax on rental income unless you see their accounts or their name is listed in connection with property rental income.

Your own tenant could have posted here that there was something dodgy about you changing the account the rent is paid to, providing an IBAN only and no name, oh he is doing it to evade tax. This of course would be equally stupid.

MacDanger · 15-07-2020 9:03am

Pkiernan wrote: »

Can someone explain what the upside is for a landlord for giving a reference?

Most LLs expect to get references so if none give references, it's difficult to expect to get any

Lux23 · 15-07-2020 3:07pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Suspicious minds.

Unless the op was handing over envelopes of cash each month, it’s “on record”.

We did just that for the first two years and some of the other tenants pay by cash now. He is clearly struggling financially, but if the shoe were on the other foot I know what he would say to us.

Lux23 · 15-07-2020 3:09pm

Dulce Zealous Nosebleed wrote: »

Tell him as you can't move you'll be moving on to HAP which he can't refuse and advise him he'll need a tax cert, the property will need to be inspected etc or he can just give you a reference.

I think that would be fraud or unethical at least.

Lux23 · 15-07-2020 3:17pm

Dav010 wrote: »

The LL gave one, he got burned before, perhaps for being too honest.

There you go making assumptions again, the tax evasion may have been associated with another business, and Revenue require a settlement. You are still speculating about whether he is paying tax on rental income and given the fact that the op hasn’t stated it is being paid in cash, it’s unlikely that he would be able to avoid tax on money paid to a bank account.

You seem to have no problems making assumptions yourself!

I think it was related to the property we live in because he was originally telling the council, revenue and RTB that he was renting the property to a family, but it is actually a three bedroom house split into six flats with an extension in the back garden and an attic conversion. I would say he is getting between 5 and 6 grand from his tenants, but telling the revenue he is getting half that which is reasonable for a family home, but not six flats!

He got into trouble when someone bought the house next door and renovated back into a family home and then they realised that there were eight people or six households living next door which they weren't happy about. Oh and he didn't provide a bin service so the filthy ****er down below us was throwing his rubbish in the yard.

15-07-2020 4:14pm

Lux23 wrote: »

We did just that for the first two years and some of the other tenants pay by cash now

Eight pages later.

tjhook · 15-07-2020 4:40pm

The whole topic of references is tricky.

It's fair enough not to want to be giving references, there's no legal requirement to do so. But I wonder if the same landlord expects to receive references from potential tenants? If so, that would be a bit crappy.

Tar.Aldarion · 15-07-2020 4:48pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Is your girlfriend paying her rent in cash? If she isn’t, then it is going into a bank account so the LL is paying at least some form of tax (DIRT) on it. It is hard to hide money from Revenue that is being paid into a bank account. The LL can register with the RTB at any time by paying a late registration fee, so no, it is not a sign that the LL is not paying tax. Your girlfriend should not in any way be afraid to apply for rental assistance, it makes no difference to her if he is registered with the RTB, she could still take a dispute to them if she needed to irrespective of whether he is registered.

There is only one way to know if a LL is not paying tax, you read their income tax return, everything else is unfounded speculation

He specified that it has to be paid in cash. I'm going to err on the side that these are not coincidences (though of course I can't know). If they are not and he has not been paying tax, is there a chance that she causes a fuss, can be served notice even though he gets in trouble with the law etc? Would be a disaster for her right now. Hence the fear.

paul71 · 15-07-2020 5:10pm

brisan wrote: »

the OP landlord managed to do it and was prosecuted for it and named in the papers
There is always a way to evade tax.
Its the scale that gets people caught

He did not manage to do it. He was caught, supporting the point I made that it is now practically impossible.

I have been doing income tax returns professionally for 25 years. 20 years ago evasion was common, I saw people coming in all the time seeking to get their affairs in order. In the last 5 years no-one has walked in the door asking for rental income to be brought into compliance thats because the evaders have all been brought into the net over the last 15 years.

Immaculata · 16-07-2020 7:52pm

paul71 wrote: »

He was caught, supporting the point I made that it is now practically impossible.

I have been doing income tax returns professionally for 25 years. 20 years ago evasion was common, I saw people coming in all the time seeking to get their affairs in order. In the last 5 years no-one has walked in the door asking for rental income to be brought into compliance thats because the evaders have all been brought into the net over the last 15 years.

And I realise it's a much smaller group, but there's people renting out places under the Rent a Room scheme. If the rent is under a certain amount, no tax is payable on it, AFAIK.

Landlord Doesn't Provide References

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