Women in Ireland working for free from today until 31 December

Silentcorner · 11-11-2019 10:09pm

biko wrote: »

http://dressforsuccessdublin.org/our-board-2/

Only women on this not very diverse board.

That was the one who was on the Niall Boylan show today making a bit of a clown out of herself, she refused to debate Larrissa Nolan and would only go on the show if she was allowed free reign to make her points, most of which were Feminism buzz words and phrases and when asked, repeatedly, she failed to name one single firm who pays women 30% less than men.

She is a moron!

Larrissa Nolan was very articulate and could refer to a number of studies and was extremely critical of this continuing damaging narrative!

Silentcorner · 11-11-2019 10:14pm

Gynoid wrote: »

"The homemaker has the ultimate career. All other careers exist for one purpose only - and that is to support the ultimate career." - CS Lewis

Just putting the cat among the pigeons with that little quote. Heh I saw it recently and it gave me pause for thought.

I see an essential truth in the quote in that society is made up of people and people have all been raised by parent(s) or care givers usually in homes, and good raising of people in good homes makes for happier people and a happier society. Or at least conversely poor homelife and shoddy home making leads to problems in society. For everyone.

Am not saying it is the whole of the truth but it is part of the truth. A part that people feel a bit sheepish to advocate on behalf of now that individual hedonism and materialism has been elevated as forming a potentially higher purpose.

Examples - One big issue that is much under investigated are fatherless homes. Homeless children is another topical issue. Time poverty is another, a lack of time with ones children. Etc

Whether one has a partner or children or not most people by their work are contributing towards a hopefully more stable society that has the possibility of functioning homes and the possibility of good rearing of the next generation at its heart. Because everyone ultimately benefits from that. Less crime, more service, less unhappiness, more inspiration and innovation.
No one benefits from the weakening of societal fabric and bonds. Everyone plays a part.

PS Homemakers should be paid, dagnabbit!

PPS The gender pay gap is a myth. People earn the same per hour, for the same work, otherwise it is illegal.

There has been a massive rise in the amount of people taking anti depressants over the last number of years, and women are more than twice as likely to be on them than men.

Can anyone say that we are a happier society because it seems we are increasing dealing with an anxiety epidemic, I like you, am beginning to wonder the root cause of it all...I could very well be wrong, but having to manage a career and raise kids simultaneously is a very hard thing to be able to do, for fathers and mothers! If someone thinks they can have it all, they are wrong!

11-11-2019 10:17pm

Dress for success seems like a vehicle to increase their own profiles.

Donald Trump · 11-11-2019 10:21pm

biko wrote: »

http://dressforsuccessdublin.org/our-board-2/

Only women on this not very diverse board.

I think you're wrong there man. Surely the Chairperson is a man dressed as a woman and using a woman's name. That's fairly diverse - Dress for success!

kildare lad · 11-11-2019 11:00pm

More feminist crap, would it have anything to do with women working lesser paid jobs , all of my friends would earn more than their partners except one. Why dont these women who claim to be earning less than men , get up off their arse and set up their own company's . Women are half the population on this planet so they should get plenty of business from all the disenfranchised women around the world .

Eric Cartman · 11-11-2019 11:06pm

kildare lad wrote: »

More feminist crap, would it have anything to do with women working lesser paid jobs , all of my friends would earn more than their partners except one. Why dont these women who claim to be earning less than men , get up off their arse and set up their own company's . Women are half the population on this planet so they should get plenty of business from all the disenfranchised women around the world .

i think most women are well aware how this works. What these people are campaigning for is for women to be able to take 2 years off to have kids, leave work early to do the school run, take time off for every doctors apointment and play, come in late every rainy day and still have the same odds of promotion and same salary as the man or woman who was in early and home late every day and barely used their holiday days.

kildare lad · 11-11-2019 11:07pm

Why don't women just identify as men at work , and they'll get the same pay . Gender pay gap solved

NSAman · 11-11-2019 11:29pm

kildare lad wrote: »

Why don't women just identify as men at work , and they'll get the same pay . Gender pay gap solved

Better still, why don't they identify as the Boss and get the same money as the boss? Seems to be the "thing" to do now, identify as something and you become that "thing".....I personally identify as a billionaire, yet I still have only a few quid in the bank..;)

kildare lad · 11-11-2019 11:32pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

i think most women are well aware how this works. What these people are campaigning for is for women to be able to take 2 years off to have kids, leave work early to do the school run, take time off for every doctors apointment and play, come in late every rainy day and still have the same odds of promotion and same salary as the man or woman who was in early and home late every day and barely used their holiday days.

Most feminists don't live in the real world tho. Anytime I hear you talking on the radio I change the channel . Trying eke out a living after spending 4 years in college doing gender studies .

nthclare · 12-11-2019 12:07am

Donald Trump wrote: »

I think you're wrong there man. Surely the Chairperson is a man dressed as a woman and using a woman's name. That's fairly diverse - Dress for success!

And always make sure you're standing under the golden arches

meeeeh · 12-11-2019 12:16am

Eric Cartman wrote: »

i think most women are well aware how this works. What these people are campaigning for is for women to be able to take 2 years off to have kids, leave work early to do the school run, take time off for every doctors apointment and play, come in late every rainy day and still have the same odds of promotion and same salary as the man or woman who was in early and home late every day and barely used their holiday days.

Actually most women would ne just happy if their husband did that every so often.

Anyway these threads are started so men can feel hard done by evil feminists. It's the usual whingefest.

I Am The Law · 12-11-2019 12:18am

Yaawwnnnn.....

Raconteuse · 12-11-2019 1:41am

meeeeh wrote: »

these threads are started so men can feel hard done by evil feminists. It's the usual whingefest.

It is, but I still agree with the frustration at it. The gender pay gap is absolute bullsh1t.

Fann Linn · 12-11-2019 1:45am

And rightly so.

Reviews and Books Galore · 12-11-2019 1:46am

bluewolf wrote: »

Housework "comes naturally". Jesus

Well, yeah? It's pretty natural not to stew in your own juices.

What's your opinion on the matter of the op?

Reviews and Books Galore · 12-11-2019 1:53am

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually most women would ne just happy if their husband did that every so often.

Anyway these threads are started so men can feel hard done by evil feminists. It's the usual whingefest.

Yeah, if I ever settle down, I'd be tempted to go part time, ask the wife to go part time and we can share child rearing and housework.

Dante7 · 12-11-2019 1:56am

Incorrect. The gender pay gap is now mainly due to women deciding to take time out of the workforce to raise children instead. It is a perfectly valid choice. I am a single father and I made the same choice three years ago to take an extended sabbatical to focus on raising my child. When I decided to take the time out I was earning €70k a year. When I go back to work, I will do well to command anywhere near the same salary immediately, and will take a hit. But that's fine. I made the correct decision for my little family. Women make this decision all the time. It's not all about the money.

Padre_Pio · 12-11-2019 2:07am

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Women also do more housework - which is UNPAID!

Tell me Batrathox... how much housework do YOU do??

We as a society need to start valuing women's contributions more. If patriarchal capitalist system is broken then government need to step in and pay a subsidy to women to make up the gap a finally recognize the work they do.

As far as I can tell there was no distinction made between working and unworking men and women.
Given women are more likely to stay at home, theyre more likely to do housework.
The same study would show men earning more cash as they are more likely to be employed.

Unless women want a role reversal, which most do not (haven't heard of any women swapping maternity leave with their partner) it's unlikely this is going to change and probably doesn't need to change.

Raconteuse · 12-11-2019 2:10am

The gap is in overall earnings (because of having children, going part-time, choosing jobs more suitable for family life etc) rather than pay rates.

Grossly dishonest.

12-11-2019 3:27am

meeeeh wrote: »

Anyway these threads are started so men can feel hard done by evil feminists. It's the usual whingefest.

Yup. Men complain on the internet. Women complain in public.

Funnily enough, women have been far more effective considering all the benefits now available to them, but lets not mention any of those.

mystic86 · 12-11-2019 4:10am

So if the reduced income relates to less hours worked due to childcare costs etc, is it not more accurate to say 'Women in Ireland not working from today until 31st December'

NIMAN · 12-11-2019 5:00am

No they aren't.

12-11-2019 5:51am

mystic86 wrote: »

So if the reduced income relates to less hours worked due to childcare costs etc, is it not more accurate to say 'Women in Ireland not working from today until 31st December'

Except it's mostly personal choices that skew the income relationships. Suggesting that its childcare costs etc, makes it sound reasonable that they need a hand-up.

There are plenty of single people (both male and female) who are on the lower income brackets due to education, and their ambitions. I know quite a few people who work few hours, and work in something they love... and their salaries reflect that.

Just as I work few hours a week, so that I can focus on writing books. I haven't been particularly successful (yet) so my income in comparison to others would be skewed. However, if I went back into Finance and management, worked 40+ hours, then my income would jump. People need to take more responsibility for their lifestyle and professional choices.

Wanderer78 · 12-11-2019 7:19am

Deleted User wrote:

Just as I work few hours a week, so that I can focus on writing books. I haven't been particularly successful (yet) so my income in comparison to others would be skewed. However, if I went back into Finance and management, worked 40+ hours, then my income would jump. People need to take more responsibility for their lifestyle and professional choices.

Again, we actually don't live on the planet of equal opportunities, but strangely, some humans seem to think we do, this is well known and researched

meeeeh · 12-11-2019 9:33am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yup. Men complain on the internet. Women complain in public.

Yes the internet, the most private forum there is...

Seriously?!

weldoninhio · 12-11-2019 9:40am

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Women also do more housework - which is UNPAID!

Tell me Batrathox... how much housework do YOU do??

We as a society need to start valuing women's contributions more. If patriarchal capitalist system is broken then government need to step in and pay a subsidy to women to make up the gap a finally recognize the work they do.

A womans work is never done. Famous saying. Also, probably the reason they get paid less.

Wanderer78 · 12-11-2019 9:43am

weldoninhio wrote: »

A womans work is never done. Famous saying. Also, probably the reason they get paid less.

or maybe its the fact, we re just a bunch of misogynists

12-11-2019 9:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

Yup. Men complain on the internet. Women complain in public.

Funnily enough, women have been far more effective considering all the benefits now available to them, but lets not mention any of those.

Men don't have a rich daddy funding their gender studies programme and their "career" as an activist , they are too busy climbing the career ladder. Those rich daddies, pussy whipped by their stay at home ladies who lunch wives, traitors to the cause.

ThunbergsAreGo · 12-11-2019 9:43am

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually most women would ne just happy if their husband did that every so often.

Anyway these threads are started so men can feel hard done by evil feminists. It's the usual whingefest.

They do, all the time all over the country.

Such an outdated view of the world you have

inforfun · 12-11-2019 9:56am

A few days ago THAT day was in The Netherlands.

When it was pointed out, by a woman, that the gap is mostly caused by women themselves (take more leave, more often part time jobs, less inclined to commute for a better paying job amongst others) the group beating the drum of women earning 15% less (www.15procent.nl) actually agreed that those reasons accounted for at least 9% difference.

Still waiting for the answer whether 6procent.nl was taken that they went for 15procent.nl instead.

meeeeh · 12-11-2019 9:58am

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

They do, all the time all over the country.

Such an outdated view of the world you have

Well thank god for token men so you can ignore all the research.

ThunbergsAreGo · 12-11-2019 10:05am

meeeeh wrote: »

Well thank god for token men so you can ignore all the research.

Its stereotyping such as this, which lets the bad ones away with it.

maccyd13 · 12-11-2019 10:51am

I personally think that there is probably a slight amount of misogyny in a few business where the owner/manager would subconsciously hire more men for senior roles and promote more men just because of their nature.

But this has recently been countered by a number of newer and modern businesses where the owner/manager would consciously hire more women for senior roles and promote more women just because it's the more praised thing to do by the media, and they might get a good PR mention, which in turn could result in greater sales and be overall better for the business, but only because of the wrong reasons, which comes down to sexism.

I am part of the younger and less experienced age bracket (22 male) where this has effected me already and I estimate will effect me further down the line and more drastically with the way things are going.

Raconteuse · 12-11-2019 11:00am

Deleted User wrote: »

Men don't have a rich daddy funding their gender studies programme and their "career" as an activist

Most women don't either, and some men do.

they are too busy climbing the career ladder. Those rich daddies, pussy whipped by their stay at home ladies who lunch wives, traitors to the cause.

Crikey!

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 12-11-2019 1:16pm

Research from the US suggests that a good amount of the so-called gender pay gap results from women's choices in university. Female students are more likely to choose lower-paying degrees such as literature, art history, or languages, while men are more likely to study higher-paying degrees like computer science, engineering, and finance.

The pay gap is then compounded by other factors, notably that women work fewer hours, are more likely to take career breaks to have children.

Ultimately, the "gender pay gap" comes down to women's own choices rather than any conspiracy to keep them down.

12-11-2019 1:26pm

Pintman Paddy Losty is definitely trolling people

Reviews and Books Galore · 12-11-2019 1:41pm

Brittany Sweet Seacoast wrote: »

Research from the US suggests that a good amount of the so-called gender pay gap results from women's choices in university. Female students are more likely to choose lower-paying degrees such as literature, art history, or languages, while men are more likely to study higher-paying degrees like computer science, engineering, and finance.

The pay gap is then compounded by other factors, notably that women work fewer hours, are more likely to take career breaks to have children.

Ultimately, the "gender pay gap" comes down to women's own choices rather than any conspiracy to keep them down.

Also, taking care of childrne can be more fulfilling that slogging away in an office to make somebody else money.

Tbh, taking care of the family motivated men to work for centuries rather than any real intrinsic love (though there is like) for work.

Sure, I think Klaz would know plenty of men who do not have families and kind of meander through life if they do not have a hobby or raison detre. I know them in my own field, and I am probably one of them.

Reviews and Books Galore · 12-11-2019 1:43pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Well thank god for token men so you can ignore all the research.

Does this style of arguing actually work? I see it all the time in American tv shows, (good god the first episode of the new season of shameless is pretty much 20% banshee) but I doubt it actually works in real life.

12-11-2019 2:06pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Pintman Paddy Losty is definitely trolling people

I prefer the term Devil's Advocate in this instance :pac:

12-11-2019 2:21pm

meeeeh wrote: »

Yes the internet, the most private forum there is...

Seriously?!

Men complaining on the internet aren't taken seriously. It's the home of nutjobs and weirdos.

Women complain on the internet, but they also complain on the radio, TV, in magazines, etc. It helps that there are far more publications aimed at women than there are for men. Which means that feminists can reach a much wider range of females with their ideas. Many will shrug off their complaints and issues as nonsense, but the wider scope means that those who agree will be contacted. Just as there's a wide readership of feminist related magazines, and books. How much of that is done by men for a male audience? Virtually none.

Deleted User wrote: »

Men don't have a rich daddy funding their gender studies programme and their "career" as an activist , they are too busy climbing the career ladder. Those rich daddies, pussy whipped by their stay at home ladies who lunch wives, traitors to the cause.

Rubbish. Those kind of men stay on as "farmers", or enter politics precisely because that's what men with money do. Or they throw them into business at management level after sponsoring their time in one of the premier colleges.

Anyway, from my experience, most women with rich daddies, end up doing hotel management, event management, decoration, or some kind of design. Perhaps some kind of Modern Art degree. Some do get into women's studies programs, but have you even looked at the people who become activists for womens' rights? They're not the rich. They're the middle class, for the most part.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 12-11-2019 2:23pm

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Also, taking care of childrne can be more fulfilling that slogging away in an office to make somebody else money.

The "gender pay gap" is really a red herring because it's not about men vs women. It's really about those who are raising children vs those who are not.

For people raising kids, family friendly hours, predictable schedules, minimal travel requirements, and sick days to care for ill children become much more important. Far more important than those without children typically realize. Life is constantly a juggling act, balancing work obligations against childcare obligations.

Those without kids, or who have a partner at home with the kids, can take promotions that require longer hours, can travel more, and have more time to study for advanced degrees or professional qualifications. Naturally they will earn more.

12-11-2019 2:27pm

Brittany Sweet Seacoast wrote: »

The "gender pay gap" is really a red herring because it's not about men vs women. It's really about those who are raising children vs those who are not.

For people raising kids, family friendly hours, predictable schedules, minimal travel requirements, and sick days to care for ill children become much more important. Far more important than those without children typically realize. Life is constantly a juggling act, balancing work obligations against childcare obligations.

Those without kids, or who have a partner at home with the kids, can take promotions that require longer hours, can travel more, and have more time to study for advanced degrees or professional qualifications. Naturally they will earn more.

And compensating for it wont work for the same reason communism doesn't work... humans being humans. If everyone was compensated for staying at home and minding children, everyone would demand that right. And there goes the neighbourhood.

12-11-2019 2:28pm

maccyd13 wrote: »

I personally think that there is probably a slight amount of misogyny in a few business where the owner/manager would subconsciously hire more men for senior roles and promote more men just because of their nature.

But this has recently been countered by a number of newer and modern businesses where the owner/manager would consciously hire more women for senior roles and promote more women just because it's the more praised thing to do by the media, and they might get a good PR mention, which in turn could result in greater sales and be overall better for the business, but only because of the wrong reasons, which comes down to sexism.

Recently, my ass. Gender bias in hiring is common and was "countered" by female dominated industries, or places who had female managers. Anyway, in a balanced workplace without any particular hiring practices, the vast majority of business managers (male and female) are intimidated by the idea that they're being sexist and will alternate their choices over time. You really should read some of HBR (Harvard Business review) articles on management practices.

It's making excuses for the sexism that has been allowed to establish itself in western society. That is acceptable for businesses to advertise for female only positions even though the law is against such discrimination. You, yourself, point to the sexism, but in such a roundabout way, as to protect yourself.

I am part of the younger and less experienced age bracket (22 male) where this has effected me already and I estimate will effect me further down the line and more drastically with the way things are going.

Of course it will, although it's likely to affect older males more because it's the middle and upper positions that are under the most criticisms for the lack of female representation.

JeffKenna · 12-11-2019 2:33pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Pintman Paddy Losty is definitely trolling people

Reading his posts across several threads he's obviously a highly intelligent individual. Pity he wastes it the way he does.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 12-11-2019 2:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And compensating for it wont work for the same reason communism doesn't work... humans being humans. If everyone was compensated for staying at home and minding children, everyone would demand that right. And there goes the neighbourhood.

I believe that more women study fields such as art history, literature, gender studies, etc., because they aren't planning to be economically self-sufficient over the longer term. Many want to study something that will give them a sense of self-fulfillment or purpose, and generate an adequate standard of living through their late 20s — but their answer to the question "How am I going to support myself for the rest of my life, buy a home, and raise a family?" often involves marrying a husband with a good steady job who will the main provider.

The calculus for men is very different. More men expect to work full-time from early 20s through late 60s and be the person who is primarily responsible for paying the mortgage and bills. They're going to make career choices with that in mind, and so art history isn't going to be such a popular choice of course.

Of course, some women want demanding, high-paying, full-time careers — but the proportion of women making that choice is lower, and so the average earnings for women overall are lower.

Eric Cartman · 12-11-2019 2:59pm

Brittany Sweet Seacoast wrote: »

I believe that more women study fields such as art history, literature, gender studies, etc., because they aren't planning to be economically self-sufficient over the longer term. Many want to study something that will give them a sense of self-fulfillment or purpose, and generate an adequate standard of living through their late 20s — but their answer to the question "How am I going to support myself for the rest of my life, buy a home, and raise a family?" often involves marrying a husband with a good steady job who will the main provider.

The calculus for men is very different. More men expect to work full-time from early 20s through late 60s and be the person who is primarily responsible for paying the mortgage and bills. They're going to make career choices with that in mind, and so art history isn't going to be such a popular choice of course.

Of course, some women want demanding, high-paying, full-time careers — but the proportion of women making that choice is lower, and so the average earnings for women overall are lower.

Absoutely this, friends in HR call them hot air balloons, women in their late 20s or early 30s with usually multiple unrelated qualifications , patchy work experience and never doing the same thing for more than 2 or so years, have travelled a lot and kept the instagram feed flowing from every destination they can think of , work just enough to fund the clothes and travel habit but havent gained any stackable experience or qualification. Going into jobs often enquiring about holiday time, sick pay and maternity benefits rather than career progression routes, upskilling or mentoring.

Its like theyre just running down the clock until theres a ring on the finger and a bun in the oven.

*obviously there are drifter men too and not all women do this and there are quite a number of women with stackable qualifications that stick to one field and have great careers

But this is a reliticely new thing, nothing wrong with changing career path once or twice but we’re talking floating between college and work , never putting the dedication into either and waiting until they can take 2 years off to have kids and sure they wont be expected to go back to anywhere near fulltime work till both kids are in school and even then , sure they’ll be 45 odd by the time they even have the time to consider 40 hours a week and sure at that point you may aswell go back to college , that brings you to 50 then you get a part time book keeping job or something and boom 65 rolls round and youve achieved nothing.

ednwireland · 12-11-2019 3:03pm

how come i hav to work for 5 months for nothing to match my partners awage ?

oh wait ..... probably because she has 3 masters degrees a phd and a good job unlike me

ErnestBorgnine · 12-11-2019 3:11pm

thomas 123 wrote: »

Typical RTÉ, Rich vs poor, men vs woman.

In tomorrow’s news a special report on how tough life is for the next minority. Followed by how carbon tax will save the world.

Yawn...

Are women the only minority who are not actually a minority?

maccyd13 · 12-11-2019 3:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Recently, my ass. Gender bias in hiring is common and was "countered" by female dominated industries, or places who had female managers.

I only meant recently as far as I am aware. I didn't hear much about gender bias against men prior to this decade, at least not at the current levels.

Deleted User wrote: »

You really should read some of HBR (Harvard Business review) articles on management practices.

Not sure why I should, I only gave my own opinion and experience. I'm not interested in reading articles on management practices just yet.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's making excuses for the sexism that has been allowed to establish itself in western society. That is acceptable for businesses to advertise for female only positions even though the law is against such discrimination. You, yourself, point to the sexism, but in such a roundabout way, as to protect yourself.

I completely agree with you here, excuses are being made for sexism constantly, and this impacts real people.

I am not trying to protect myself by phrasing anything in a roundabout way. I have an open mind on things and that's just the way I talk and think.

Deleted User wrote: »

Of course it will, although it's likely to affect older males more because it's the middle and upper positions that are under the most criticisms for the lack of female representation.

Long term, it will be affecting the younger bracket much more as they have not reached middle/upper positions yet, and for those on the receiving end of these decisions may not get to reach these positions for no reason other than their gender. Yes, the current senior workers are under criticism, but no one will lose their job because of their gender, come on like.

If you have a senior position, you will face criticism but no actual results, whereas those males applying for middle/upper positions may never reach their aspirations purely because of gender.

tritium · 12-11-2019 3:42pm

irelandrover wrote: »

Why did none point out in these threads that men work on average 7 years longer than women. That has a huge effect on the average salary.

Well UK statistics show men working about 39 hours and women about34 hours a week. That’s almost 3 days per month. Which means that over a year the point where women “start to work for free” is approximately at the same point where it balances all the extra hours men have worked.

Who knew markets were so efficient

Women in Ireland working for free from today until 31 December

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