Circular Number: 0037/2020

Rosita · 24-05-2020 5:46pm

[quote="Bobtheman;113537349"

A kid taking legal action will be rare especially given they have the chance to take a re sit . [/quote]

It'll be rare if it happens at all. But if it happens the process will be available to all. Bottom line is that teachers just need to be very robust in their data and judgement and not assume that their outcome will never be subjected to any outside scrutiny.

Bobtheman · 24-05-2020 5:53pm

Government also agreed that this system must include a number of key elements, including
reliance on the professional judgment of each of the candidate’s teachers which will not be
subject to appeal; in-school alignment to ensure fairness amongst candidates at the school level;
approval by the school principal of the estimated marks and rankings of students in the school;
a process of standardization at national level to ensure fairness amongst all candidates; a right
of appeal by candidates which will involve data checks on school-entered data, correct

transfer of that data to the Department of Education and Skills, a review that the data was
correctly received and processed by the Department, a verification of the Department’s
processes by independent appeal scrutineers and, if the candidate remains dissatisfied, the
opportunity to sit the written Leaving Certificate examination when it is safe and practicable
for such examinations to be held.

r93kaey5p2izun · 24-05-2020 5:56pm

Rosita wrote: »

Lawyers will probably advise on that in due course. But the idea that someone could potentially pull a mark out if their rear end and not have it capable of being challenged is fanciful.

Well teachers would want to seek the advice of these lawyers fairly sharpish then to ensure their professional judgement decisions are overtly defensible in the face of legal challenge. Either professional judgement is protected and the procedure of school alignment and principal sign off is considered adequate in terms of checks and balances, or concrete advice on what will be considered defensible is urgently required.

Bobtheman · 24-05-2020 5:56pm

The appeal part seems quite narrow-in that a student can only check each part of the process was carried out-but bottom line they are told to go do a resist if really unhappy.

Rosita · 24-05-2020 5:56pm

Lindsey Happy Asphalt wrote: »

Are you aware of the other stages of the process?
Tha alignment meeting?
The Principal’s role?
Nobody will be pulling results out of their rear end.

Yes, I heard something about those alright. But someone mentioned class tests and marks in the teacher journal, in other words, marks which do not have the provenance of published school reports.

Bobtheman · 24-05-2020 5:57pm

Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »

Well teachers would want to seek the advice of these lawyers fairly sharpish then to ensure their professional judgement decisions are overtly defensible in the face of legal challenge. Either professional judgement is protected and the procedure of school alignment and principal sign off is considered adequate in terms of checks and balances, or concrete advice on what will be considered defensible is urgently required.

Worth reading the appeal part which I posted

Rosita · 24-05-2020 6:00pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

The appeal part seems quite narrow-in that a student can only check each part of the process was carried out-but bottom line they are told to go do a resist if really unhappy.

If they are missing out on a college course because of an estimated grade, will lose a year because of it, and have the legal clout to do something about it, what Joe McHugh tells them they can or can't appeal won't count for much. See how long his JC instructions lasted.

Rosita · 24-05-2020 6:06pm

Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »

Well teachers would want to seek the advice of these lawyers fairly sharpish then to ensure their professional judgement decisions are overtly defensible in the face of legal challenge. Either professional judgement is protected and the procedure of school alignment and principal sign off is considered adequate in terms of checks and balances, or concrete advice on what will be considered defensible is urgently required.

Loads of things are considered perfectly good and have been blown apart in the courts afterwards. There is no way to be absolutely sure what will happen when a challenge happens. Its just better to be aware of it and for teachers to believe they are in some kind of legal vacuum. If they were then the ASTI would not have been looking a few days ago for the Dept of Ed to pick up the tab in case of a legal challenge. Why were the Dept of Ed talking about that if there can be no challenge whatsoever to a teacher?

r93kaey5p2izun · 24-05-2020 6:13pm

Rosita wrote: »

Loads of things are considered perfectly good and have been blown apart in the courts afterwards. There is no way to be absolutely sure what will happen when a challenge happens. Its just better to be aware of it and for teachers to believe they are in some kind of legal vacuum. If they were then the ASTI would not have been looking a few days ago for the Dept of Ed to pick up the tab in case of a legal challenge. Why were the Dept of Ed talking about that if there can be no challenge whatsoever to a teacher?

I agree. Teachers will be challenged legally. And they should be prepared. But I don't believe it is possible for professional judgement of a teacher to be overtly defensible in the context of our system. No matter what it will be easily torn apart by a good lawyer. You think it should be overtly defensible and all I asked was how? You say lawyers will advise - when? After the fact when it's too late? Are you confident you will be able to successfully defend your professional judgement in a legal sense?

Rosita · 24-05-2020 6:27pm

Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »

I agree. Teachers will be challenged legally. And they should be prepared. But I don't believe it is possible for professional judgement of a teacher to be overtly defensible in the context of our system. No matter what it will be easily torn apart by a good lawyer. You think it should be overtly defensible and all I asked was how? You say lawyers will advise - when? After the fact when it's too late? Are you confident you will be able to successfully defend your professional judgement in a legal sense?

I cannot predict the outcome of a potential legal case but I am confident I will be able to stand over them and overtly defend them as they will be evidence-based on exams held across all classes in the school and any judgement call will be minimal and marginal. Whetehr that would be enough to withstand legal argument I haven't heard is another matter. But the law is probably fairly inchoate in this area so who knows where a legal case might bring it. All I can say is that I am around the block enough times to know that the Minister saying they can't appeal this or that has as much substance as a sign in a car-park saying they are not responsible for your car, or on a premises saying you enter at your own risk.

r93kaey5p2izun · 24-05-2020 6:35pm

Rosita wrote: »

I am confident I will be able to stand over them and overtly defend them as they will be evidence-based on exams held across all classes in the school and any judgement call will be minimal and marginal.

Well then you are in a very lucky position if you believe these exams support your professional judgement on what mark the students are most likely to achieve, and therefore any subjective judgements required need only be minimal. Perhaps school context is a big factor, or perhaps subjects differ considerably, but my experience is that such school exams would not be adequately representative without very significant input from the teacher's professional judgement.

Rosita · 24-05-2020 6:50pm

Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »

Well then you are in a very lucky position if you believe these exams support your professional judgement on what mark the students are most likely to achieve, and therefore any subjective judgements required need only be minimal. Perhaps school context is a big factor, or perhaps subjects differ considerably, but my experience is that such school exams would not be adequately representative without very significant input from the teacher's professional judgement.

That's fair enough. It's a perfectly reasonable argument. Do not be afraid to stand over it.

Treppen · 24-05-2020 7:16pm

Dunno why people are so concerned.
There's going to be zero court cases against any teacher who doesn't break confidentiality and isn't taking the proverbial.

But, Let's take it to the nth degree.

You're on the stand in a hearing and your asked why you gave them 65% instead of 78% ?

Just say "well in the mocks they got 55% but failed to demonstrate that they understood questions X and y continuously in class, so on the best day of an exam and all the same topics came up I don't think they would have grasped that concept given what they've shown, so that's approx 35% of any question, in my professional opinion at that exact point in time".

The only comeback is for them to ask for more evidence. Just say you observed it and it's in your brain.
Anyway the burden of proof is on them so they have to provide their own evidence to the contrary that Jimmy would have gotten 78%. What are they going to do?

Court cases will go nowhere unless there's been a breech of procedure.

Rosita · 24-05-2020 7:35pm

Treppen wrote: »

The only comeback is for them to ask for more evidence. Just say you observed it and it's in your brain.
Anyway the burden of proof is on them so they have to provide their own evidence to the contrary that Jimmy would have gotten 78%. What are they going to do?

Not sure it works like that. I doubt a barrister would be expected to provide evidence of a student's academic capacities since that is determined in school. It would be the teacher's procedures and standards in arriving at that judgement that would be tested.

amacca · 24-05-2020 8:40pm

Rosita wrote: »

Not sure it works like that. I doubt a barrister would be expected to provide evidence of a student's academic capacities since that is determined in school. It would be the teacher's procedures and standards in arriving at that judgement that would be tested.

I tend to agree with that bit at least....I think people are lightly brushing over potentially serious legal challenges down the line ..... the only thing that is a mitigating factor imo is those challenging may have pause for thought if the state is defending...you would want to be determined and have deep pockets or support of a group to enter into potentially long drawn out legal proceedings.

km79 · 24-05-2020 8:55pm

I think we can all agree that it is way too open to different interpretations. A long week ahead

Bobtheman · 24-05-2020 10:17pm

The Government is generally capable of dealing with legal challenges. They rarely succeed against them. Given the Covid situation its very unlikely the courts will look kindly on any action. Going to court is frightfully expensive and for what exactly because you wont do a re-sit?? I know there was a case last year over appeals but this is a different ball game. This is a once off event (hopefully)

Treppen · 24-05-2020 11:22pm

Rosita wrote: »

Not sure it works like that. I doubt a barrister would be expected to provide evidence of a student's academic capacities since that is determined in school. It would be the teacher's procedures and standards in arriving at that judgement that would be tested.

tested against what though?

"Mrs. Lovely, in your professional opinion why do you think young Jimmy here should only get 75%"

"Because that's my professional opinion based on what I saw"

If a barrister has no counter evidence then who do you go with?

Treppen · 24-05-2020 11:38pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

The Government is generally capable of dealing with legal challenges. They rarely succeed against them. Given the Covid situation its very unlikely the courts will look kindly on any action. Going to court is frightfully expensive and for what exactly because you wont do a re-sit?? I know there was a case last year over appeals but this is a different ball game. This is a once off event (hopefully)

That case hinged on visual indisputable evidence.
The scores were totted up incorrectly.
That was an open and shut case.

Don't forget that for years students have been trying to get rid of the special note on their exam script if they have had reasonable accommodations.
The student here won her case at the Equality Tribunal and was awarded 6,000eur and the government were told to remove it https://www.ihrec.ie/supreme-court-clarifies-duties-towards-students-disability-discrimination-case/

But get this, the department then appealed through the Circuit Court... the High Court ....and then The Supreme Court.

Just to protect the integrity of the exam!

So in a way the ASTI were dead right to insist on the Dept carrying the can. Hopefully the department will keep their word :pac:

JDMC2 · 25-05-2020 12:16am

So, have we have any idea what the student will actually see during their appeal?
If they are allocated a H3......will they be able to go online on the day of the results and see that they were awarded 75%.......little Johnny feels he should have received a H2......he appeals.....can he then be shown that his teacher gave him 81%......don’t think Johnny’s mammy will be happy

Treppen · 25-05-2020 8:32am

From what I gather the appeal process only checks to see if the procedure was done correctly so I don't think the grade forms part of it.

Do the students receive a breakdown of subject grades, like for normal leaving cert?
So they can appeal just one subject as opposed to everything?

Moody_mona · 25-05-2020 9:02am

Blondini wrote: »

I have a maths department meeting tomorrow off which I'm the lead.
We can see each other's results according to the guidelines.

If I feel they were too lenient or too strict, do I adjust accordingly.

This is a few pages back but just want to pull it up because it wasn't commented on. You absolutely cannot adjust other teachers' marks.

r93kaey5p2izun · 25-05-2020 10:54am

Treppen wrote: »

From what I gather the appeal process only checks to see if the procedure was done correctly so I don't think the grade forms part of it.

Do the students receive a breakdown of subject grades, like for normal leaving cert?
So they can appeal just one subject as opposed to everything?

They have to receive subject grades. Course entry still has specific subject requirements.

r93kaey5p2izun · 25-05-2020 10:58am

Moody_mona wrote: »

This is a few pages back but just want to pull it up because it wasn't commented on. You absolutely cannot adjust other teachers' marks.

I agree. However if you were totally unhappy with things at the end of the alignment meeting then I think you would have to inform the principal.

Treppen · 25-05-2020 10:58am

Moody_mona wrote: »

This is a few pages back but just want to pull it up because it wasn't commented on. You absolutely cannot adjust other teachers' marks.

Yes and here would be a potential case Teacher Vs Teacher.

The final grade to be submitted MUST fall to the subject teacher.
Question is though, who ultimately submits the final number?

r93kaey5p2izun · 25-05-2020 11:01am

Treppen wrote: »

Yes and here would be a potential case Teacher Vs Teacher.

The final grade to be submitted MUST fall to the subject teacher.
Question is though, who ultimately submits the final number?

The principal must sign off and send to DES.

Bobtheman · 25-05-2020 11:26am

How are you meant to avoid a cluster **** ? I hope people know I'm word playing here. Military term but I'm pointing to fact when im doing avg grades they are clustering like chickens being fed .

JDMC2 · 25-05-2020 12:18pm

How are you meant to avoid a cluster ****

Unfortunately, that’s where your professionalism comes in. I have a lot of students that are ’middle of the road’ hovering in the mid-50’s. This is of course primarily based on evidence. So, I now have to use my ‘professional judgement’ to rank these seven or eight kids...... in the standardisation process, this may lead to some being put in the H5 bracket and/or others being moved up to H4 or, worse still, down to a H6 when the standardisation is complete. That’s 11 points of a difference because of my ranking students who are very similar because of my ranking students who are so similar that it’s practically impossible to predict one from the other. I won’t sleep well if, or when, this happens.

That’s why I ask the question, can or will students see their actual %? It’s unfair that they receive it every other year and not this year.
Furthermore, I’d like to see how the standardisation changed my %

Bobtheman · 25-05-2020 12:21pm

I have four students whose grade avegerage is 51.2. I just then had to use the Mocks and if the mocks were the same the last grade I gave them,

JDMC2 · 25-05-2020 12:28pm

I’m in a very similar situation however I’m reluctant to base my final decision on the mocks....I suspect that a couple of the students may have had a peek at the already published papers. That’s only a feeling though.
I’m going to have to base it on their participation in class and my ‘professional judgement’

Bobtheman · 25-05-2020 12:30pm

I never kept notes on participation in class. I had a messy group. Kids arrived late into class. Attendance irregular. Some had major behaviour issues. I rarely got homework even after placing them on detention etc. I just motored along as best I could.

r93kaey5p2izun · 25-05-2020 12:32pm

JDMC2 wrote: »

I’m in a very similar situation however I’m reluctant to base my final decision on the mocks....I suspect that a couple of the students may have had a peek at the already published papers. That’s only a feeling though.
I’m going to have to base it on their participation in class and my ‘professional judgement’

Many of your previous posts suggest you are not a teacher.

JDMC2 · 25-05-2020 12:36pm

Thank you for your observation, I am a concerned teacher ��*��.......and a concerned parent of a LC student......however, I like to keep them as separate tasks

rainbowtrout · 25-05-2020 1:17pm

Our principal sent us a copy of the documentation the students got this morning about registering on the portal for calculated grades. They have until Thursday to do it.

In the FAQs at the end of the document it says

Will I be able to get details of the information provided about me to the Department (estimated percentage mark and class rank) before the issue of the results?

No. Data protection legislation allows for restrictions to be placed on access to certain types of personal data including the results of examinations. Requests for access to the school’s estimated percentage mark and rank order will not be active until the date of issue of the results. After the results are issued by the Department, you will be able to access this information.

Treppen · 25-05-2020 1:39pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Our principal sent us a copy of the documentation the students got this morning about registering on the portal for calculated grades. They have until Thursday to do it.

In the FAQs at the end of the document it says

Sounds logical. Same as practical/oral grades really.

Treppen · 25-05-2020 1:44pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

I have four students whose grade avegerage is 51.2. I just then had to use the Mocks and if the mocks were the same the last grade I gave them,

Gave them what?

You really need to stay away from averages. There is zero formula possible to arrive at a grade through averages. Every single exam a student does is in transition and not or never will be a leaving cert grade.

The leaving cert grade you actually give is based on your judgement of what they 'could' achieve on their best day.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 25-05-2020 1:48pm

Treppen wrote: »

The leaving cert grade you actually give is based on your judgement of what they 'could' achieve on their best day.

Not on their best day, just what you'd expect them to get.

How would they have done on the day, all things being equal, that's all.

Treppen · 25-05-2020 2:04pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Not on their best day, just what you'd expect them to get.

How would they have done on the day, all things being equal, that's all.

I would say on their best day. Being able to show all that they know given a favourable paper with zero inconsistencies or nasty questions etc. This is what I mean by 'their' best day.

Everyone knows there were two polar opposite maths mocks, so how would you have expected them to get on in both? Is your expectation fair given the discrepancy?

You have to assume that the paper would have been perfectly fair.

r93kaey5p2izun · 25-05-2020 2:13pm

It specifically rules out using "what you may think they have a reasonable chance of getting on a good day". This is the most difficult line in the document imo. Very unfair I think.

r93kaey5p2izun · 25-05-2020 2:20pm

JDMC2 wrote: »

Thank you for your observation, I am a concerned teacher ��*��.......and a concerned parent of a LC student......however, I like to keep them as separate tasks

Ok. Not what you have said in the past though.

rainbowtrout · 25-05-2020 2:23pm

Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »

It specifically rules out using "what you may think they have a reasonable chance of getting on a good day". This is the most difficult line in the document imo. Very unfair I think.

I don't agree. Every year students get on better in some subjects and worse in others than they expected. Students don't all perform to their optimum level across all subjects.

'Their best day' refers to the one who has only learned one English poet and hope it comes up. If it comes up great, if it doesn't they'll be winging it.

There was a post here in the last couple of days that said class tests weren't a fair indicator of what a student's ability is. I disagree with that too. That is students performing on their best day. They know exactly the topic or chapter they are being examined on. There are no nasty questions, in that most teachers I imagine are not whacking out exam questions to their fifth years, they just want students to learn the material first and foremost. Students know what they have to learn for a chapter test so are given the opportunity to show what they are capable of on more simplistic tests on a smaller range of material.

If they have reached a ceiling on class tests in terms of their marks, it's far less likely that they will improve on that on their best day in the LC if the questions go their way on an unseen paper on the whole course.

r93kaey5p2izun · 25-05-2020 2:37pm

Their best day is not "on a good day" though - what they would have a "reasonable chance" of achieving is ruled out. We're not talking about the stars aligning for a 1 in a million dream paper. Just a good day.

Bobtheman · 25-05-2020 2:39pm

Treppen wrote: »

Gave them what?

You really need to stay away from averages. There is zero formula possible to arrive at a grade through averages. Every single exam a student does is in transition and not or never will be a leaving cert grade.

The leaving cert grade you actually give is based on your judgement of what they 'could' achieve on their best day.

Yes but that judgement is surely formed in the main by the grades they got ? It's going to be a huge part of the equation no matter what blather is written in the document because most teachers don't have a huge amount of notes etc for various reasons and don't have records of how accurate their previous guesses went.
Particularly were you had groups who rarely produced homework and were difficult to get them writing in class.
I'm talking English here.

r93kaey5p2izun · 25-05-2020 2:42pm

As for class tests, again I think school context must be a big factor. I would always have had lots of students, mostly boys, who would fail class tests all the time in 5th, scrape by in early 6th, but pull it all together by putting the head down in January. Laziness meant they didn't learn procedures properly until they felt it was time to bother, but they could problem solve and interpret better than most so once they practiced the basics they were flying. About 70% of boys I have had for HL Maths have gone up minimum 15% from mocks.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 25-05-2020 2:48pm

Legend Numerous Fig wrote: »

As for class tests, again I think school context must be a big factor. I would always have had lots of students, mostly boys, who would fail class tests all the time in 5th, scrape by in early 6th, but pull it all together by putting the head down in January. Laziness meant they didn't learn procedures properly until they felt it was time to bother, but they could problem solve and interpret better than most so once they practiced the basics they were flying. About 70% of boys I have had for HL Maths have gone up minimum 15% from mocks.

We all have those students, that's part of your professional judgement. It's mentioned in the guidelines. You know them so give what you think they'd have gotten.

r93kaey5p2izun · 25-05-2020 2:53pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

We all have those students, that's part of your professional judgement. It's mentioned in the guidelines. You know them so give what you think they'd have gotten.

Yes of course. I'm clear on that. These students are the majority in schools I taught in. Some posters here seem to think class tests will be representative , with minimal interpretation, for the majority - not so in my experience. Professional judgement will be the biggest factor. It's difficult though when comments from teachers seem to think evidence will be more substantial and indicative. If other teachers think that then any appeals process may prove particularly difficult for those teaching in these contexts.

Bobtheman · 25-05-2020 3:10pm

As far as I can see there isn't a formula at all-just a professional guess by people of varying abilities in the guessing game. Those who have corrected, those who haven't, those that keep good notes and those with hardly any notes. It's a blooming mess dressed up with a nice ribbon saying "Professional opinion" which can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.
Best to anesthetize yourself with a few shots of "professional opinion" and guess away!

Treppen · 25-05-2020 3:23pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I don't agree. Every year students get on better in some subjects and worse in others than they expected. Students don't all perform to their optimum level across all subjects.

'Their best day' refers to the one who has only learned one English poet and hope it comes up. If it comes up great, if it doesn't they'll be winging it.

There was a post here in the last couple of days that said class tests weren't a fair indicator of what a student's ability is. I disagree with that too. That is students performing on their best day. They know exactly the topic or chapter they are being examined on. There are no nasty questions, in that most teachers I imagine are not whacking out exam questions to their fifth years, they just want students to learn the material first and foremost. Students know what they have to learn for a chapter test so are given the opportunity to show what they are capable of on more simplistic tests on a smaller range of material.

If they have reached a ceiling on class tests in terms of their marks, it's far less likely that they will improve on that on their best day in the LC if the questions go their way on an unseen paper on the whole course.

I think we know those students who wing it with their minimal information (they've obviously been caught out so many times prior to March 13th.

I would say that in a fair exam these students would still perform badly even if their 'poet came up', i.e. they'd be caught out by their lackadaisical approach across the exam and based on what you've witnessed in class. To be fair to the predicted grade you must assume that you know how they will perform no matter what poet comes up.

I don't teach English so I'm making the assumption that all poets are equally as difficult and as easy to engage with :eek:

Bobtheman · 25-05-2020 3:27pm

Can I ask a question about FORM A-it says Programme LCE/LCVP and Then LCA. Which do you tick for the Ordinary LC? Leaving Cert??

km79 · 25-05-2020 3:30pm

Bobtheman wrote: »

Can I ask a question about FORM A-it says Programme LCE/LCVP and Then LCA. Which do you tick for the Ordinary LC? Leaving Cert??

LCE - Leaving Cert Established.
To be fair that is going to throw a lot of teachers. I only know of it due to corrections with SEC.

Circular Number: 0037/2020

Comments