Science is a poor career choice - Covid effect on CAO applications

AlphabetCards · 03-04-2021 12:52pm

To parOP: "STEM degrees, particularly chemistry and the likes, are irrelevant, pointless as the jobs that are specific for chemistry degrees don't pay well."

Thargor wrote: »

Ideally Biotechnology or Biochemistry or Biopharma etc but they'll take literally any science degree or even an unrelated degree if you can explain yourself in the interview, you just might have to do a 12 month contract ...

I have Biotech qualifications but work with people in the same role that have sports nutrition or forensics or that kind of random thing where there are very few roles to be had in their chosen area, my team lead was a qualified primary school teacher but she got sick of the crappy money and no permanent roles in that field and fired off a CV.

Production is just the bottom rung in your career anyway. Worst case scenario do a one year Springboard course in Pharmaceutical science or something, they're free if you're unemployed or dirt cheap otherwise.

Im in my thirties with no pHD just 6 years experience in the industry and going for a mortgage on my own, except Ill be paying 50% cash from savings, or I could just buy an apartment now for cash, 25k a year technician roles lol?

Mate, everything you have posted has proven our points. You don't even need a degree in science for the role you are talking about here - that is your own words. In a thread where STEM grads are highlighting that their degrees don't open doors, and that any jobs that require a Chemistry or Science degree don't pay well. Like, how is this point not getting through to posters?

I think there are degrees which are vocational in nature, Medicine, nursing, physio, pharmacy etc which line up a very determined career path.

Not to mention Law. What's the common thread here, why do these types of jobs pay so well? Because the number of grads each year are limited, the professions are protected/regulated/licensed and that hinders supply of labour, thus increasing... demand, keep with me here... which in turn forces employers to pay more to ensure they can get people in the door to do the job. Again, supply and demand, the central tenet of this whole thread which seems to be lost on nearly everyone posting here.

AlphabetCards · 03-04-2021 12:55pm

onrail wrote: »

Where do I sign up!!?

Dole office, apparently the springboard course will get you in.

But do a science degree, masters and a PhD, because, transferable skills and no-one knows what they want to do when they are 15 anyway and 'I have always been seen as a high performer because of my extensively broad background' and other pointless **** people have posted in this thread.

Thargor · 03-04-2021 1:55pm

AlphabetCards wrote: »

To parOP: "STEM degrees, particularly chemistry and the likes, are irrelevant, pointless as the jobs that are specific for chemistry degrees don't pay well."

Mate, everything you have posted has proven our points. You don't even need a degree in science for the role you are talking about here - that is your own words. In a thread where STEM grads are highlighting that their degrees don't open doors, and that any jobs that require a Chemistry or Science degree don't pay well. Like, how is this point not getting through to posters?

Not to mention Law. What's the common thread here, why do these types of jobs pay so well? Because the number of grads each year are limited, the professions are protected/regulated/licensed and that hinders supply of labour, thus increasing... demand, keep with me here... which in turn forces employers to pay more to ensure they can get people in the door to do the job. Again, supply and demand, the central tenet of this whole thread which seems to be lost on nearly everyone posting here.

Well Im sure you know more than me about it but the reason my company takes any science degree anyway is because they're so desperate for graduates they cant get the numbers. Hiring increased through the pandemic contrary to pretty much every other industry, we all got raises and covid payments to keep us at our posts anyway.

And yes a Springboard course will get you in on the bottom rung, so what? Isnt that still a STEM degree? If you have the work ethic they're looking for you can double or treble your pay in a few years. Then you specialise into whatever senior roles take your interest. If you dont change roles/network and upskill you'll stay on low pay forever but who does that these days? I think this post sums some people in this thread up pretty well:

mariaalice wrote: »

Dont do anything is the message dont do science, don't do engineering or civil engineering, don't do IT, don't do teaching, don't do nursing, don't become a hairstylist, in fact, any career you can think of someone will come on here and say its a terrible career.

Timistry · 05-04-2021 12:15am

Totally agree with the above regarding operators in Pharma, serious money to be made. Most are earning much more the chemists and engineers who design and run the processes (with masters or doctorates).

Also, fitters who went straight from schools and did an apprenticeship in Pharma plants in the 80s/90s. Would be on 100K+ now. I know someone in their late 20s who works as a fitter and he is on 70K.

Ash.J.Williams · 05-04-2021 12:19am

Timistry wrote: »

Totally agree with the above regarding operators in Pharma, serious money to be made. Most are earning much more the chemists and engineers who design and run the processes (with masters or doctorates).

Also, fitters who went straight from schools and did an apprenticeship in Pharma plants in the 80s/90s. Would be on 100K+ now. I know someone in their late 20s who works as a fitter and he is on 70K.

The trades all seem to end up studying and becoming engineers too , Pharma IT pays more than the science jobs , but then again stay in a place 2 years in a science role and you’ll be management

06-04-2021 2:20pm

Thargor wrote: »

Well Im sure you know more than me about it but the reason my company takes any science degree anyway is because they're so desperate for graduates they cant get the numbers. Hiring increased through the pandemic contrary to pretty much every other industry, we all got raises and covid payments to keep us at our posts anyway.

I believe you are discussing a large multi-national in the Midwest beginning with R? I would advise any science graduate I know to apply there, great jobs and great benefits from what I've heard of people working there.

Turtwig · 06-04-2021 2:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I believe you are discussing a large multi-national in the Midwest beginning with R? I would advise any science graduate I know to apply there, great jobs and great benefits from what I've heard of people working there.

Second this. The job seeker would be mad to not at least explore the option.

06-04-2021 2:45pm

Turtwig wrote: »

Second this. The job seeker would be mad to not at least explore the option.

Absolutely. I understand some graduates are reluctant to move to the midwest due to Limerick's rep but it's a great place to live, ime. If you are a bit older and have kids there's plenty of nice places to live in a short commute from Raheen too, Ennis, Nenagh etc are both only about a 30 minute drive, if city living isn't your thing.

ancapailldorcha · 13-04-2021 8:37am

Turtwig wrote: »

Second this. The job seeker would be mad to not at least explore the option.

Do you work there as well? Limerick seems to have a lot more going for it than a northerner like myself would have thought.

Christy42 · 14-04-2021 11:31am

Retraining is pretty quick these days outside of specialised fields. If the worst is that you enjoyed 3/4 years of your life and learned about some things that interested you then it isn't so bad as a worst case. We have more science graduates than science jobs at the moment but that isn't so bad from my point of view. They will still mesh in well with business or other areas and their degree may give them an advantage, i.e. admin at a pharma firm able to better understand what is going on with the chemists.

Then from a society point of view we could do with more training in science given its relevance to modern life (5g, vaccines etc.). A degree doesn't just have to help your career, it can help your understanding of the world you are in as well.

Someone mentioned other degrees in their job. Obviously there is more than 1 path to the end result, there nearly always is. Why not take the path that interests you the most to get there? You don't need a law degree to be a lawyer either.

I can't speak for specific jobs within STE but maths still has a lot of options in industry though the OP seems more focused on Chemistry/Biology. No degree or trade is an automatic right to a high salary anymore. You still have to work at it and be good at it. A bad plumber won't be doing well either but there is plenty of money to be made if that is your thing.

divillybit · 17-04-2021 12:28am

I did an environmental science degree... I stuck with it at the time when I should have dropped out as I was more interested in engineering than science but the social life was good so I stuck with it. I do recall one lecturer saying we would be highly skilled and sought after graduates and thinking to myself he's really packing us with lies... Ive been working in industry now for 10 years now, in the environmental engineering sector and I'm nearly finished a postgraduate diploma, while working full time and it's tough going, and I've not really learned much relevant stuff from it so I regret doing it and I certainly won't be pursuing a masters.. I think science degrees are worthwhile, but avoid very broad based courses, and focus more on a core discipline like chemistry or physics. In the broader science courses there is alot of overlap between courses in the first few years. I think doing a masters straight after a degree is a mistake for graduates. I nearly made that mistake and luckily I got working as the masters I was looking at would have been very specialised. Graduates are best to go work in industry for at least 3 years before considering a masters as I think practical experience is worth gaining at the start of your career

Squeeonline · 21-04-2021 7:13am

I started my undergrad in 2007 and was frequently told about how 4th years were being headhunted by Pfizer and co before they even graduated.

Obviously in 2011 when I finish, the economy is in a totally different place and still not recovered enough from 2009. Was unable to find a position in industry for a year and it was quite disheartening. It felt like I was mis-sold on the value of my specialist science degree. After a year I enrolled in a masters course, then eventually a PhD in a different country.

I feel like I could probably have had more success in the job hunt after the masters, but that's from a position of privilege. The masters wasn't cheap and my parents had to support me financially for yet another year.

ValuableResist · 29-05-2021 3:52pm

To be fair, most people I know who did environmental science didn't really realise that they need development and building to be happening or they won't have a job. I did geology and we all have jobs that the environmental scientists thought they would be qualified for, but actually there is a preference for the geo grads. Like there were people who were anti-development, mining, windfarms, but they need companies to want those things to have a job...

Outkast_IRE · 29-05-2021 3:58pm

The Mighty Quinn wrote: »

I work in the "E" of that. Assuming civil/structural engineering is included.

I will NOT be encouraging any child of mine to go that way. It's really not an enjoyable career path. It's difficult work for mediocre pay in high stress conditions. And I've worked in many companies at this point. It's not a good career path.

I can't comment on the STM.

Work on the consulting side myself. My own opinion would be similar to yours. I work in a large international consultancy who claim to be all about wellbeing etc. but they dont do a tap to help the lads stressed out of their heads with the pressure who just quit with no other job lined up.

I will never be encouraging any of my kids into it thats for sure.

ancapailldorcha · 29-05-2021 5:17pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

Work on the consulting side myself. My own opinion would be similar to yours. I work in a large international consultancy who claim to be all about wellbeing etc. but they dont do a tap to help the lads stressed out of their heads with the pressure who just quit with no other job lined up.

I will never be encouraging any of my kids into it thats for sure.

You work in consulting? I'm considering it as a possible option but I assume that you're one of the lads you allude to. I take it you wouldn't recommend the path?

dowhatyoulove · 29-05-2021 6:21pm

Did a science degree and then later a masters. Wish quite frankly I had have had better career counseling as it was a costly mistake as it was the middle of the recession and didn’t manage to get any work.

10 years later they are just very expensive wall hangings and I wish I had of persuaded a degree in Pharmacy as I’m now a technician and the wages have quite a low ceiling

Outkast_IRE · 29-05-2021 6:38pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

You work in consulting? I'm considering it as a possible option but I assume that you're one of the lads you allude to. I take it you wouldn't recommend the path?

It's probably less stressful in some ways than the site based roles but sitting in the office or at home all day has serious downsides at times.

If you haven't tried it before try and get in with one of the biggest crowds or else a smaller crowd that someone can vouch for. Like everything else in construction margins are tight in consulting and it's very competitive.

Stand your ground with regards to taking on workload and be realistic in how long things take.

If you haven't worked in that area yourself it might be worth a shot but generally the site based roles pay more.

ancapailldorcha · 30-05-2021 1:03pm

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

It's probably less stressful in some ways than the site based roles but sitting in the office or at home all day has serious downsides at times.

If you haven't tried it before try and get in with one of the biggest crowds or else a smaller crowd that someone can vouch for. Like everything else in construction margins are tight in consulting and it's very competitive.

Stand your ground with regards to taking on workload and be realistic in how long things take.

If you haven't worked in that area yourself it might be worth a shot but generally the site based roles pay more.

I was looking at a large firm. A woman who left work suggested it to me. I like problem solving and dealing with technical stuff but, truth be told I don't know a great deal about it. Especially not the work-life balance aspect of it.

I'm lab based. Don't know if that makes much difference.

BrianD3 · 08-09-2021 11:34am

CAO points for 2021 out, has there been any increase (over and above general points inflation) for science, in particular biological science courses this year. I compared points for some financial and biological science courses for this year and for 2019. It doesn't look like the points difference has changed much which would suggest that there hasn't been an increase in popularity of science courses. Although there could have been a change on the supply side i.e. more places for some courses and not for others?

floorpie · 11-09-2021 12:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117862592#Comment_117862592

I wonder if capacity has increased in courses, due to blended learning. I know in my uni we were pushing physical capacity each year, and online learning during lockdowns relieved things somewhat (albeit this isn't ideal)

BrianD3 · 04-11-2021 10:19am

It's that time of year again - Science Week. Lots of talks and events all around the country which seem to be aimed mostly at children and teenagers. As in previous years, no doubt there will be events about interesting and "trendy" topics from dinosaurs to forensics to superhero exoskeletons. With some kids inspired to pursue careers based on this influence. More potential cannon fodder for industry and students/postdocs for the universities?

It seems to be county councils who are organising the Science Week events on behalf of Science Foundation Ireland. The same county councils for whom environmental protection is within their remit - yet they have always been very reluctant to employ NFQ level 8+ qualified environmental science graduates as...scientists...with similar status to engineers. Instead, most are employed as badly paid technicians, positions for which a NFQ level 6 is required. Even so, demand has historically been high for these jobs which is telling and says something about the state of the jobs market for environmental science grads.

BrianD3 · 22-02-2022 11:43am

I thought of this thread again when i saw the below article on public jobs. If I was a 17/18 year old doing the LC and putting down courses on the CAO form, I'd probably be influenced by this and the comment where she would "strongly encourage a career in science".

Is this person's career history reflective of career prospects for many who study Geology?

I don't like the way these things are spun. She worked in London and Boston (in other words, she emigrated but this word isn't used) Then, after many years she returned to Ireland and secured her senior position in the civil service. I'd like to hear from those who haven't secured the position of Head of Geoscience in the civil service (there is only one such position) or aren't some "bigshot" working in oil exploration.

What happened to the rest of the people she went to college with. When I read articles like this my first thought is - survivor bias. Add to that the stuff about women in STEM. Maybe geology is actually a fair choice for a woman if she's going to benefit from pro female recruitment policies which skew the jobs market?

https://publicjobs.ie/en/information-hub/latest-news-and-events/709-meet-clare-head-of-geoscience-regulation-office-department-of-environment-climate-and-communications

vriesmays · 22-02-2022 2:44pm

Science is also psychology, sociology, home economics and geography.

BrianD3 · 31-10-2022 10:06am

It's coming up to that time of year again - Science Foundation Ireland's annual Science Week where kids and teenagers are shown how "cool" science is. No doubt everything from dinosaurs to climate change to diversity in STEM will be covered again this year. But will there be anything about poor pay and opportunities for science grads? Unlikely

I see that Philip "Snake Oil" Nolan aka Philip "The Modelling" Nolan is now Director General of SFI. I doubt that he and other senior people are too concerned about struggling postdocs in academia or graduates being employed as technicians on not much above minimum wage - if they can get a job.

Universities, Local Government and other public bodies are heavily involved in Science Week with various festivals happening around the country. Re: local government, this sector has always been very reluctant to employ science graduates as scientists (with pay/T&Cs equivalent to those of engineers, town planners, architects etc.) for scientific work. Instead most are employed as technicians. The work they do is not valued and not understood and many LAs do not even have a lab. Yet, here's some promotional material from twitter with the obligatory diversity. One good thing about this is at least they don't try to promote the work using CSI type "coolness".

Flinty997 · 31-10-2022 10:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118671987#Comment_118671987

I know someone who did geology. Work options were mostly insurance, risk assessment, oil companies, working in third world countries doing something.

They didn't stay in the field got a job in totally different area.

Flinty997 · 31-10-2022 10:21am

Most people I know in Pharma are pretty decently paid. No idea about the general conditions in the industry. Did contract IT work in a Pharma once seemed decent place to work. Though a bit souless if I'm honest.

Jim2007 · 31-10-2022 10:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814566#Comment_119814566

So it did not work out for you. Get over it, move on and stop rehashing it every few months with this thread.

Flinty997 · 31-10-2022 10:31am

I think third level are guilty are selling courses that put bums on seats to pay the their bills rather than train people for specific careers.

If you want know what the good jobs are look at salary guides from places like cpl. Look at the salary range top to bottom. Then look how People you know and how they are doing.

The other factor is personality. Some people will drive themselves to the top in a difficult area. But not everyone is like that. So you need to look at low end of salaries too.

When I switched careers (I was in creative area) I switched to one (IT) where the salary scale was much higher. For the most part that worked out.

There's obviously downsides to picking a career based on income rather than doing something you like doing. Life is not a job at the end of the day.

BrianD3 · 31-10-2022 10:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814616#Comment_119814616

Is that a mod instruction?

Or a flippant comment from someone who works in a different field in a different country who is close to retirement and now effectively telling me to shut up? If this thread irritates you, I suggest you don't read it.

Also, you're wrong about it not working out "for me". I've done better than most of my peers but better doesn't mean good. If I can counterbalance some of the hype that we're going to see during Science Week, I will.

Jim2007 · 31-10-2022 1:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814666#Comment_119814666

I'm not a mod of this forum. It just that you keep playing the same old fiddle over and over to the point of obsession.

Science is a poor career choice - Covid effect on CAO applications

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