organic farming

Birdnuts · 12-10-2019 9:39pm

Spent today doing a course on hedgerow management at Tommy Earley's award winning organic farm near Arigna in North Roscommon. What a guy!! - Using rushes as bedding and for heating his whole set-up. His bog is currently the subject of a very promising Carbon sequestration and flood control project. Plus some of the finest in calf AA's I've ever seen. Its folk like him that should be designing GLAS schemes etc. - not clip board fools in DAFM etc.

endainoz · 15-10-2019 12:19pm

My application to the organic scheme has been 'pre approved' for RASS according to Agfood. Rang the organic department, they said I'd know for sure towards the end of the week. Trying to read between the lines, it sounds like pretty good news but she couldn't tell me for sure. Hopefully good news due soon!

endainoz · 27-10-2019 5:17pm

https://www.cap4nature.com/

Well worth a look, would be nice if these practical solutions were taken into account for future CAP negotiations.

blue5000 · 27-10-2019 7:14pm

tractorporn wrote: »

That's what we do here 2 years red clover followed by 3 years oats hopefully, the theory is that the nitrogen from the clover will power on the following crops. I have only 4 years of the rotation done here so I'm toying with the idea of combi crop for the final year under sown back to the red clover and wrap the straw for feeding but I'm not sure if I'm brave enough for that.

AFAIK you need a 6 year break between red clover crops to avoid sclerotina
https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/host-disease/clover-trifolium-spp-sclerotinia-crown-rot-wilt

tractorporn · 27-10-2019 9:36pm

blue5000 wrote: »

AFAIK you need a 6 year break between red clover crops to avoid sclerotina
https://pnwhandbooks.org/plantdisease/host-disease/clover-trifolium-spp-sclerotinia-crown-rot-wilt

All I can say is that is hasn't been an issue here so far although we are not that deep into the rotation. Having spoken to a good few lads before making the jump none of them had an issue with it either. The guy from Kilbeggan oats has run a 2 year oat 2 year red clover rotation for the past 15 or so years with mo problems as of yet. Hopefully its something we can avoid here too.

endainoz · 06-11-2019 10:59am

I'm very happy to say I got an acceptance letter for the organic scheme from the department yesterday. Everyone who applied will get their letters this week, we were told.

Water John · 07-11-2019 9:01pm

Letter of Refusal today. Cereals and Beef plan. So much for those saying, everybody will get it. I presume none of the sheep lads made it. A lot of them did the training course with me.
I will stay organic anyway.

yosemitesam1 · 07-11-2019 9:14pm

Is it possible to go organic without being accepted just not get the organic payments?

Water John · 07-11-2019 9:18pm

Yes. If you get Dept approval later, you just don't get the transition payment for 2 years but go straight to member payment €170/ha.

May open in 2021/22 and would expect anyone in my position to get in.

tractorporn · 07-11-2019 9:19pm

Water John wrote: »

Letter of Refusal today. Cereals and Beef plan. So much for those saying, everybody will get it. I presume none of the sheep lads made it. A lot of them did the training course with me.
I will stay organic anyway.

A lot of people haven't been excepted, a good few tillage and dairy guys didn't get in. It seems that they took size into account for the points so if you were anyway small scale or had rented land (which counted for half the marks) you were screwed. I'm surprised that endainoz got in, you must have a big track of land if you've no tillage or dairy?

Water John · 07-11-2019 11:59pm

Quite obvious it didn't have the backing of the Senior Minister.

endainoz · 08-11-2019 11:17am

tractorporn wrote:

A lot of people haven't been excepted, a good few tillage and dairy guys didn't get in. It seems that they took size into account for the points so if you were anyway small scale or had rented land (which counted for half the marks) you were screwed. I'm surprised that endainoz got in, you must have a big track of land if you've no tillage or dairy?

I think I was lucky to be honest, it seemed the threshold was to have at least 40 Ha of owned land. I'm just slightly over that so I think was a big factor. But I'd say luck was a very big part of it.

endainoz · 23-11-2019 2:55pm

https://m.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/darragh-mccullough-ground-up-instead-of-roundup-inspires-me-to-think-more-like-an-environmentalist-38682511.html

Sounds like Darragh was very inspired at Bio Farm.

Water John · 23-11-2019 6:19pm

Good move to get someone of his recognition to chair the two full days of the conference. In fairness, he's open minded and was also a good rappatour.

Got the rest of the straw lying shed concreted today. Easy to spend money. This small upgrade will cost over €5K. Would want to see a return.
Hoping to buy some more stores over the next few weeks.

Panch18 · 23-11-2019 6:32pm

Water John wrote: »

Good move to get someone of his recognition to chair the two full days of the conference. In fairness, he's open minded and was also a good rappatour.

Got the rest of the straw lying shed concreted today. Easy to spend money. This small upgrade will cost over €5K. Would want to see a return.
Hoping to buy some more stores over the next few weeks.

Will you be selling as registered organic? Or in conversion for 2 years?

Water John · 23-11-2019 6:36pm

In conversion, buying organic stock that I won't sell until 2021.

Panch18 · 24-11-2019 10:59am

What course are lads doing when applying for the organic? Is it only open to those that are applying to go into organic air can anybody do it?

tractorporn · 24-11-2019 1:31pm

Panch18 wrote: »

What course are lads doing when applying for the organic? Is it only open to those that are applying to go into organic air can anybody do it?

To qualify for payments you have to have the fetac level 5 "introduction to organic farming" done and the cert uploaded to agfood.

But anyone can do the course. Teagasc usually run courses every year, last year the courses were in Portlaoise and Mallow, theres a planner, Mary Lynch, in Tipp town the does the course in the Ballykisteen hotel as well. Might be closer to ya.

Water John · 24-11-2019 6:24pm

I did it with NOTS in Drumshanbo, Leitrim.

gozunda · 24-11-2019 6:47pm

tractorporn wrote: »

To qualify for payments you have to have the fetac level 5 "introduction to organic farming" done and the cert uploaded to agfood.

But anyone can do the course. Teagasc usually run courses every year, last year the courses were in Portlaoise and Mallow, theres a planner, Mary Lynch, in Tipp town the does the course in the Ballykisteen hotel as well. Might be closer to ya.

I think I may have done that one years ago. Had to a report as part of the coursework- did one on organic weed control but absolutely no idea where it might be! Must check in the heap of certs in the office ...

Buford T. Justice XIX · 24-11-2019 9:59pm

Well, that's a development I didn't expect.

https://thierrystokkermans.wordpress.com/2016/06/01/what-is-the-future-of-organic-no-till/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Earnshaw · 12-12-2019 3:45pm

I was wondering if anyone could provide info on the following.

At what age can bulls be castrated (with a burdizzo) without using anesthetic?

tractorporn · 12-12-2019 3:53pm

Earnshaw wrote: »

I was wondering if anyone could provide info on the following.

At what age can bulls be castrated (with a burdizzo) without using anesthetic?

In organics? Basically you cant. All castration or skulling has to be done using anesthetic and you have to have a derogation form from your organic body as well.

Its important to have this or else it's a slap on the wrist and could be a 20% fine on your OFS. I learnt that the hard way .

Earnshaw · 12-12-2019 4:03pm

Can the anesthetic used for castration be purchased and administered by the farmer?

tractorporn · 12-12-2019 4:07pm

Earnshaw wrote: »

Can the anesthetic used for castration be purchased and administered by the farmer?

I just bought a bottle of adrenacaine from my vet. Make sure to write it down as a vet treatment in your record book as well.

Water John · 12-12-2019 4:26pm

Does the 6 months age have any issue on castration? Sorry, Porn but you seem to be source of info here.

Earnshaw · 12-12-2019 4:33pm

is adrenacaine sufficient for castration then?

Water_John: what are you implying here?

Water John · 12-12-2019 4:37pm

It's just the regs seem to say to use anesthetic for under 6 months. what about over 6 months, not mentioned.
Maybe I'm misreading in some way.

Earnshaw · 12-12-2019 4:43pm

ya that's what had me confused!

In any case, i'd like to know if adrenacaine is an appropriate anaesthethic for castration purposes?

tractorporn · 12-12-2019 4:48pm

Water John wrote: »

Does the 6 months age have any issue on castration? Sorry, Porn but you seem to be source of info here.

Not in organics, apparently if you put a ring on a bull calf at a day old he should get a shot of painkiller

endainoz · 12-12-2019 5:24pm

On an unrelated note, is anyone still waiting for the organic payment? I read somewhere that payments had started but I haven't seen anything on agfood yet...

Earnshaw · 12-12-2019 10:06pm

All I know is you won't get organic payments if you are waiting to get payment for GLAS.

Still no wiser on castration. Under the regulations, can you use adrenacaine and can it be administered by the farmer?

Also, if you castrate after 6 months of age is it nessecary to use anaesthetic...?

ganmo · 12-12-2019 10:37pm

Earnshaw wrote: »

All I know is you won't get organic payments if you are waiting to get payment for GLAS.

Still no wiser on castration. Under the regulations, can you use adrenacaine and can it be administered by the farmer?

Also, if you castrate after 6 months of age is it nessecary to use anaesthetic...?

its a prescription medication, so when getting it off your vet they'll be able to tell ya

tractorporn · 12-12-2019 11:10pm

Earnshaw wrote: »

All I know is you won't get organic payments if you are waiting to get payment for GLAS.

Still no wiser on castration. Under the regulations, can you use adrenacaine and can it be administered by the farmer?

Also, if you castrate after 6 months of age is it nessecary to use anaesthetic...?

Over 6 months of age you have to get the vet to do it, under the organic standards they must be castrated before 6 months and disbudded before 15 days . You can inject the adrenacaine yourself, 2cc into the groove in the head for skulling, not sure where it goes for castration I presume into the sac.

Water John · 12-12-2019 11:36pm

So you have to apply for a derogation if over 6 months and get the vet to do it.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 12-12-2019 11:41pm

Came across this survey earlier and thought it might interest some of you on the information on browsing as well as the survey.
https://twitter.com/JennByrne/status/1205170421827620866?s=19

toleratethis · 13-12-2019 12:00am

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

Came across this survey earlier and thought it might interest some of you on the information on browsing as well as the survey.
https://twitter.com/JennByrne/status/1205170421827620866?s=19

"cut dried & stored during the Summer months"

How do they deal with/get around the bird nesting/hedgecutting season?

tractorporn · 13-12-2019 12:46am

Water John wrote: »

So you have to apply for a derogation if over 6 months and get the vet to do it.

Yeah, you have to apply for a derogation regardless of age tho. It should be at the back of your renewal form I saw it on mine there today.

Earnshaw · 13-12-2019 9:06am

tractorporn wrote: »

Over 6 months of age you have to get the vet to do it, under the organic standards they must be castrated before 6 months and disbudded before 15 days . You can inject the adrenacaine yourself, 2cc into the groove in the head for skulling, not sure where it goes for castration I presume into the sac.

Thanks for clarifying TP.

If anyone can provide further input on injecting into the sac it'd be helpful...

manjou · 13-12-2019 10:42am

The derogation is the most important part get it before you do anything castrate here as calves so send in derogation form with annual returns. Get anasethic from vet before calving season so if inspection happens you have on your records
As for where to inject ask your vet.ðŸ˜‰

Buford T. Justice XIX · 13-12-2019 12:08pm

toleratethis wrote: »

"cut dried & stored during the Summer months"

How do they deal with/get around the bird nesting/hedgecutting season?

No idea, just thought it might interest some here. I remember my father telling me about cutting furze for feed at one stage but no idea about it until I came across that.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 13-12-2019 12:19pm

https://twitter.com/NatOrgSkill/status/1205143435465887744?s=19

endainoz · 13-12-2019 12:38pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

https://twitter.com/NatOrgSkill/status/1205143435465887744?s=19

Saw this last night, plenty of videos to check out on it.

Water John · 13-12-2019 4:31pm

That's Christmas Day's viewing sorted.

Say my name · 13-12-2019 6:02pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

https://twitter.com/NatOrgSkill/status/1205143435465887744?s=19

Any dairy farmers should check them all out but if you want to watch one, have a look at Will Armitage. A high output organic dairy farmer. It's the kind of one where you need to watch a few times to understand it.
He's feeding beet to the milkers over the winter amongst all the other innovations of the year.

https://youtu.be/u5xN0AiTAiA

Buford T. Justice XIX · 17-12-2019 7:38pm

https://twitter.com/NatOrgSkill/status/1206904934312136706?s=19

Dinzee Conlee · 17-12-2019 11:00pm

Buford T. Justice VI wrote: »

https://twitter.com/NatOrgSkill/status/1206904934312136706?s=19

Got that email as well...

Bit steep I thought, for a half dozen WEB sessions?

Markcheese · 18-12-2019 12:17am

manjou wrote: »

The derogation is the most important part get it before you do anything castrate here as calves so send in derogation form with annual returns. Get anasethic from vet before calving season so if inspection happens you have on your records
As for where to inject ask your vet.ðŸ˜‰

Has anybody used "American bands" for castration ,at an older age ?
I guess you'd need a derogation , but shouldn't need anesthetic ... Although probably need them put on by a vet ...

auspicious · 18-12-2019 4:53pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Has anybody used "American bands" for castration ,at an older age ?
I guess you'd need a derogation , but shouldn't need anesthetic ... Although probably need them put on by a vet ...

I was viewing the 'vegan 'agenda' ' thread and this organic title piqued my interest.
I have read only the last post and found the ... after the anesthetic curious.
Now I'm not a farmer but I think it's obvious that castration causes pain especially in "older bulls", and so I looked it up.
Why has no farmer here said hold on a second that's not in the animal's welfare and can bring our high welfare standards in this country in to disrepute?
You give out about vegans, well these types of practices and indifference are why we exist.

"Pain

Pain is inherently a part of castration and cannot be avoided. The pain of castration occurs first as acute, short-term pain associated with the actual castration procedure. Chronic pain is the longer-lasting pain that occurs in the days following castration until the injury is healed. Minimizing castration-induced pain is important for animal welfare...

...Surgical castration or using an emasculatome is preferable to banding, unless calves can be banded within a week of birth."

https://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_b/B227/welcome.html

Panch18 · 18-12-2019 5:12pm

auspicious wrote: »

I was viewing the 'vegan 'agenda' ' thread and this organic title piqued my interest.
I have read only the last post and found the ... after the anesthetic curious.
Now I'm not a farmer but I think it's obvious that castration causes pain especially in "older bulls", and so I looked it up.
Why has no farmer here said hold on a second that's not in the animal's welfare and can bring our high welfare standards in this country in to disrepute?
You give out about vegans, well these types of practices and indifference are why we exist.

"Pain

Pain is inherently a part of castration and cannot be avoided. The pain of castration occurs first as acute, short-term pain associated with the actual castration procedure. Chronic pain is the longer-lasting pain that occurs in the days following castration until the injury is healed. Minimizing castration-induced pain is important for animal welfare...

...Surgical castration or using an emasculatome is preferable to banding, unless calves can be banded within a week of birth."

https://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_b/B227/welcome.html

I'll tell you what - why don't we band you and you can report back to us on the various stages of pain that you feel following the castration

organic farming

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