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Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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    #1202
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,129 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Never ceases to amaze me when people think it is the responsibility of private property owners to provide “housing stock” for renters/buyers.

    However it is their responsibility to use their property within the parameters of applicable planning permission and apply for change it use if they want to set up a hotel service in a residential area.


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    #1203
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    However it is their responsibility to use their property within the parameters of applicable planning permission and apply for change it use if they want to set up a hotel service in a residential area.

    Doest mean its a good law


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    #1204
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Doest mean its a good law

    Or that it will be effective, I guess people don’t like being told who they can let their property to, and for how long. Nor being blamed for housing shortage.


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    #1205
    Jamsiek
    Registered Users Posts: 1,426 ✭✭✭Jamsiek


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Doest mean its a good law

    That’s a matter of opinion


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    #1206
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,129 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Doest mean its a good law

    Planning law? I’d say it’s a pretty fundamental law myself.


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    #1207
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Planning law? I’d say it’s a pretty fundamental law myself.

    Airbnb is not comparable to a hotel or a holiday home etc it’s much closer to residential usage. Planning laws predate Airbnb so are not in a position to rule on them imo.

    On top of that many would disagree with a lot of planning laws and feel they are way too strict.


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    #1208
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »
    Airbnb is not comparable to a hotel or a holiday home etc it’s much closer to residential usage. Planning laws predate Airbnb so are not in a position to rule on them imo.

    On top of that many would disagree with a lot of planning laws and feel they are way too strict.

    Pull the other one. Not comparable? Who are you trying to fool?


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    #1209
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Pull the other one. Not comparable? Who are you trying to fool?

    You think a two bed apartment is comparable to a hotel? Who’s the fool?


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    #1210
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Dav010 wrote: »
    You think a two bed apartment is comparable to a hotel? Who’s the fool?

    Well, firstly, he said Airbnb wasn’t comparable to hotels and holiday homes. Holiday homes tend to be houses and apartments because... what else would they be? Just to nip in the bud the tack of claiming that because the Airbnb accommodation is in a different structural formation to a hotel room, it’s different. Airbnbs and holiday homes are similar structures: houses, apartments etc. But even if he hadn’t - people usually rent Airbnb as holiday accommodation or for other things that hotel rooms are often booked for. Concerts, weddings, job interviews etc. People sometimes stay in Airbnbs if their job has sent them somewhere for a few months. That might be the closest you’ll get to residential but, again, companies use hotels for that purpose too.

    How stupid do you think people are to attempt to put this forward as a cogent argument? Lads, seriously. You either think people are stupid or you are content to make yourself look not so sharp. The bare-faced dishonesty is brazen, I’ll give you that.


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    #1211
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Pull the other one. Not comparable? Who are you trying to fool?

    No one, as I said I have relations renting a house on Airbnb for 2 weeks over Christmas and they lived in it like it was there home. Cooked most meals, did their washing, relaxed in front of the tv most evenings, one even worked remotely from an office in the house for a number of days over the Christmas. Multiple bedroom for the different family members etc.

    Absolutely no comparison to a hotel and without Airbnb the trip would not really have been possible.


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    #1212
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »
    No one, as I said I have relations renting a house on Airbnb for 2 weeks over Christmas and they lived in it like it was there home. Cooked most meals, did their washing, relaxed in front of the tv most evenings, one even worked remotely from an office in the house for a number of days over the Christmas. Multiple bedroom for the different family members etc.

    Absolutely no comparison to a hotel and without Airbnb the trip would not really have been possible.

    When I’m on holiday, my hotel room becomes my home. Ditto holiday homes. Ditto Airbnb. You make them your home away from home. But they’re not your home. Two weeks in an Airbnb rental? Big deal.

    You mentioned holiday homes. How do you imagine an Airbnb house differs from that? People do washing and cook in holiday homes too and could work from one. They don’t differ at all. And I’ve stayed in hotel rooms with kitchenettes.

    It’s a fabulously dishonest argument that would get ripped to shreds by a legal professional.


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    #1213
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »
    No one, as I said I have relations renting a house on Airbnb for 2 weeks over Christmas and they lived in it like it was there home. Cooked most meals, did their washing, relaxed in front of the tv most evenings, one even worked remotely from an office in the house for a number of days over the Christmas. Multiple bedroom for the different family members etc.

    Absolutely no comparison to a hotel and without Airbnb the trip would not really have been possible.

    When I’m on holiday, my hotel room becomes my home. Ditto holiday homes. Ditto Airbnb. You make them your home away from home. But they’re not your home. Two weeks in an Airbnb rental? Big deal.

    You mentioned holiday homes. How do you imagine an Airbnb house differs from that? People do washing and cook in holiday homes too and could work from one. They don’t differ at all. And I’ve stayed in hotel rooms with kitchenettes.

    That the relations of yours couldn’t afford a hotel is irrelevant. The Airbnb was holiday accommodation.

    It’s a fabulously dishonest argument that would get ripped to shreds by a legal professional.


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    #1214
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,129 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »
    Airbnb is not comparable to a hotel or a holiday home etc it’s much closer to residential usage. Planning laws predate Airbnb so are not in a position to rule on them imo.

    On top of that many would disagree with a lot of planning laws and feel they are way too strict.

    Aha, what a mad post. “Not comparable?” You May argue nuances on how it’s different but it’s guests turning up with bags and suitcases increasingly to whole spaces managed professionally. So there’s no front reception desk, but it’s clearly not in keeping with residential zoning.

    As for your second point - yeah you’re spot on there. Ireland has always had cowboys who feel planning / conservation law unfairly impedes their ability to make money from property. I’d say they’re mostly on the wrong side of history though, wouldn’t you?


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    #1215
    TSQ
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭TSQ


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    However it is their responsibility to use their property within the parameters of applicable planning permission and apply for change it use if they want to set up a hotel service in a residential area.

    If the issue is to provide more housing in rent pressure areas, and the tourist dollar (Or euro) is less important, why is pp being granted for so many hotels in rent pressure zones? Surely all available sites should be zoned residential? Why discriminate against one particular type of “hotelier” (for those who claim that an airbnb is just like a hotel)? Walking around Dublin recently, the number of new hotels between the canals is unbelieveable. Surely these sites, if designated for multi-storey residential, could accommodate many more families or Google and FB employees than the total airbnb properties in the same area.


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    #1216
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Where is there discrimination against any type of hotelier?

    Hoteliers of all types are free to apply for planning permission.


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    #1217
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    There is a strong feeling out there that short stay lets wont be given planning permission. We have cases of Airbnb hosts spending tends of thousands renovating priceless Georgian heritage for Airbnb only to be denied permission. There is a sense they'd either rather let this heritage rot or don't understand how people wish to become landlords.


    This issue is just a smaller example of the broader housing crisis which is a classic example of adverse circumstances being made far worse through excessive regulation and gov interference.


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    #1218
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Why would anyone spend tens of thousands re-developing anything without first seeking the appropriate planning permission.


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    #1219
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    Why would anyone spend tens of thousands re-developing anything without first seeking the appropriate planning permission.

    From experience, I know that doing any type of renovation/redevelopment of Georgian buildings is very expensive. You also have to remember that the planning laws for Airbnb are new, buildings may have been owned/bought before the new rules came into effect and building works needed/planned prior to that. Given the indifference with which hosts are treating the new rules, I’m surprised they bothered applying for pp.


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    #1220
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Graham wrote: »
    Why would anyone spend tens of thousands re-developing anything without first seeking the appropriate planning permission.

    Planning was not needed for this kind of renovation. In the case I was thinking of a city planner was supportive in a pre-app meeting. Anyway your response is basically well 'they are bad at business' which is an irrelevant point. I don't care if businesses go to the wall. This isn't the Investments and markets boards.ie forum after. Its more that supply of accommodation is being underused and in some cases lost. But if you want to go down the route you were taking this, then I just say yes you are correct. It is a poor business choice. Anyone would be better selling up and dumping their money in the stock market and working in a cafe. The reality is business savvy small-timers have mostly left and it looks like the non business minded types are leaving too.


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    #1221
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »
    Airbnb is not comparable to a hotel or a holiday home etc it’s much closer to residential usage. Planning laws predate Airbnb so are not in a position to rule on them imo.

    On top of that many would disagree with a lot of planning laws and feel they are way too strict.

    Nobody cares what these people think. The law is the law, people don't get to pick and choose which ones they are going to obey and which ones they aren't.
    Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »
    No one, as I said I have relations renting a house on Airbnb for 2 weeks over Christmas and they lived in it like it was there home. Cooked most meals, did their washing, relaxed in front of the tv most evenings, one even worked remotely from an office in the house for a number of days over the Christmas. Multiple bedroom for the different family members etc.

    Absolutely no comparison to a hotel and without Airbnb the trip would not really have been possible.

    How is this in any way relevant to anything?


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    #1222
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    awec wrote: »
    Nobody cares what these people think. The law is the law, people don't get to pick and choose which ones they are going to obey and which ones they aren't.


    :confused: No one advocated breaking the law or that the law could be sneakily broken, as has been made very clear. To say that no one cares about what x thinks about the law is rude and untrue. Posters were just just pointing out that the law is dysfunctional and hurting society.


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    #1223
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    :confused: No one advocated breaking the law or that the law could be broken. Just that the law is dysfunctional and hurting society.

    This law is doing neither.

    I see we're still beating the "oh won't somebody thinks of the tourists" drum. Somewhere, there's a tiny violin playing...


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    #1224
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    Even if the 3,000 odd properties on airbnb come back to long term rental hard to see how they will make a dent in prices for the 320,000 who live in rented Dublin properties. About as likely as filling a swimming pool with a dripping tap.


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    #1225
    Jay Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Jay Dee


    awec wrote: »
    How is this in any way relevant to anything?
    ..

    Surely this is an example of the main difference between Hotels and AirB&B. !


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    #1226
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,129 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Jay Dee wrote: »
    Surely this is an example of the main difference between Hotels and AirB&B. !

    It’s not a difference in anyway that matters. It’s still a whole residential unit let professionally to provide tourist accommodation. The effect is the same as if a hotel offered a self catering apartment.

    Keep reletting that residential unit out and you’re running a hotel like service, and that requires a change of use under planning law.


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    #1227
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    You are entitled to your opinion but you are quite incorrect. Regulations always add expense can reduce supply. In many cases they are needed to provide free flow of information to allow people to make choices and build trust, which can make exchanges easier but there is a fine line when they become excessive and their benefits are not worth it. The chronic shortage of tourist, residential and business accommodation in Dublin is ample proof that this fine line has been crossed. Perhaps you see helping visitors have a place to stay as something to joke about but I don't.

    I don't see it as a joke.

    But it pales into insignificance when compared with people having somewhere to live. People who use this as a way to try and make the argument that this regulation is bad look like idiots.

    "It's shocking Joe, they're taking away those properties so that people can have homes, and now I can't do my weekend shopping trip up to Dublin any more! It's a disgrace!".


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    #1228
    Jay Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭Jay Dee


    awec wrote: »
    "It's shocking Joe, they're taking away those properties so that people can have homes, and now I can't do my weekend shopping trip up to Dublin any more! It's a disgrace!".

    What !!!


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    #1229
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Jay Dee wrote: »
    What !!!

    To complain about the landlords of short term lets selling up makes you look like an idiot.


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    #1230
    Yellow_Fern
    Registered Users Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭Yellow_Fern


    awec wrote: »
    I don't see it as a joke.

    But it pales into insignificance when compared with people having somewhere to live. People who use this as a way to try and make the argument that this regulation is bad look like idiots.

    "It's shocking Joe, they're taking away those properties so that people can have homes, and now I can't do my weekend shopping trip up to Dublin any more! It's a disgrace!".

    and the laws aren't working out very well are they? Your perspective is what prevails at Gov level and thus can be linked to the creation of the crisis. Some people like me work remotely and use airbnb to visit their official place of work, others use it to find long term accommodation or short term language or research stays in Dublin. Frankly it is no ones business whether is stag weekends or tech workers who work remotely.


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    #1231
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    and the laws aren't working out very well are they?

    Not yet but hopefully that will change with increased enforcement.
    Yellow_Fern wrote: »
    Frankly it is no ones business whether is stag weekends or tech workers who work remotely.

    Absolutely right as long as the property has the appropriate planning permission.


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